Talk:Bolognese School
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Requested move 26 July 2024
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- Bolognese School → Bolognese school
- Lucchese School → Lucchese school
- Delft School (painting) → Delft school (painting)
- Norwich School of painters → Norwich school of painters
- Boston School (painting) → Boston school (painting)
- Volcano School → Volcano school
- Pont-Aven School → Pont-Aven school
- Cusco School → Cuzco school
- Quito School → Quito school
- Sienese School → Sienese school
- Cologne School of Painting → Cologne school of painting
- Cologne School → Cologne school
- Cologne School (music) → Cologne school (music)
- Hudson River School → Hudson River school
– Schools of art, schools of thought, etc., are usually rendered in sources with lowercase school. We should fix, consistent with WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CAPS. This is a logical extension of the consensus at Talk:Cretan School#Requested move 25 April 2024, but I thought I'd do another discussion just in case. And for the Cuzco school, restore the common spelling. (These are all found at Template:Western art movements, and there may be others there that I've missed.) Dicklyon (talk) 02:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Strong support: These are the names of movements / stylistic variations, not specific institutions. — BarrelProof (talk) 03:44, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note – I'm planning to add Sienese School and Cologne School of Painting above, if nobody minds. Dicklyon (talk) 04:19, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Please continue adding, as long as the same principle applies. Whatever you find – the Dogs Playing Poker School, the Velvet Elvis School, etc. — BarrelProof (talk) 04:32, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hereby nominating Hudson River School. — BarrelProof (talk) 05:03, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Feel free, as long as nobody who has commented already objects. Dicklyon (talk) 05:11, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Added Hudson River School (it was moved in the opposite direction by Waggers in May 2007). The others were facetious. — BarrelProof (talk) 05:32, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think King of Hearts needs to review my edit for how to add new ones to the list, in two places, to make the template do its job of notifying and such. Dicklyon (talk) 05:08, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Feel free, as long as nobody who has commented already objects. Dicklyon (talk) 05:11, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Echoing SchreiberBike below, I just want to explicitly mention these are supported by MOS:MOVEMENT a.k.a. MOS:DOCTCAPS a.k.a. MOS:FIELD. — BarrelProof (talk) 20:06, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Hereby nominating Hudson River School. — BarrelProof (talk) 05:03, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Please continue adding, as long as the same principle applies. Whatever you find – the Dogs Playing Poker School, the Velvet Elvis School, etc. — BarrelProof (talk) 04:32, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support per above. We should also standardize the disambiguation scheme, i.e. choose between "(painting)", "of painting", and "of painters", unless there is a legitimate WP:COMMONNAME reason to maintain the discrepancy. I vote for the parenthetical disambiguation (painting). -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:48, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- I generally prefer natural to parenthetical. And "of painting" is uniformly more common than "of painters", as far as I can tell. But let's leave that question for later. Dicklyon (talk) 05:24, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support per above. Juwan (talk) 19:01, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support. Thanks for the ping re Hudson River School, @BarrelProof, a lot has happened in 17 years! WaggersTALK 12:26, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Again I ask Dicklyon to remove the outlier Hudson River School from the list above. Waggers and others, please note the n-grams supporting 'Hudson River School' seem to be over 90%. For those who doubt that Hudson River School is normally uppercased see the articles linked on this page and subsequent pages for its central place in American art history, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'll leave that up to BarrelProof, who added it here. Thanks for undoing your suggestion that his pinging Waggers (the editor who capped it in '07) was canvassing. And as you know, we don't cap for "central place". Also note that that broad-brush n-gram stat includes all the titles, citation headings, etc., in the "90%". Using "Hudson River School of painters" knocks out things in title case, and shows capitalized usage from about half, 100 years ago, to around 60% by the time Waggers capped it in 2007. That's not the behavior of a proper name, and not what we mean by "consitently capitalized". Dicklyon (talk) 15:17, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- The name of the central to American art history school is Hudson River School (named early on and has retained the proper name), not the oddly-formed 'Hudson River School of painters'. As for what I edited out, did you stop and think that it was edited out (i.e. I realized my mistake and rectified it) for a reason, and bringing it up is kind of a dick move, to coin a phrase. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:30, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- The n-gram you linked above tells us nothing. Here is real one comparing uppercased 'Hudson River School of painting' (which is, by the way, a contrived contorted name) to its lowercase 'Hudson River school of painting'. Doesn't tell us much more than expected, with uppercase prominent in a seldom-used phrasing. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:56, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- If you can think of other phrasings that knock out title-case contexts, that would be interesting to look at. Keep in mind that our capitalization criterion is "consistently", not "prominent". Dicklyon (talk) 16:35, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- The n-gram you linked above tells us nothing. Here is real one comparing uppercased 'Hudson River School of painting' (which is, by the way, a contrived contorted name) to its lowercase 'Hudson River school of painting'. Doesn't tell us much more than expected, with uppercase prominent in a seldom-used phrasing. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:56, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- The name of the central to American art history school is Hudson River School (named early on and has retained the proper name), not the oddly-formed 'Hudson River School of painters'. As for what I edited out, did you stop and think that it was edited out (i.e. I realized my mistake and rectified it) for a reason, and bringing it up is kind of a dick move, to coin a phrase. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:30, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'll leave that up to BarrelProof, who added it here. Thanks for undoing your suggestion that his pinging Waggers (the editor who capped it in '07) was canvassing. And as you know, we don't cap for "central place". Also note that that broad-brush n-gram stat includes all the titles, citation headings, etc., in the "90%". Using "Hudson River School of painters" knocks out things in title case, and shows capitalized usage from about half, 100 years ago, to around 60% by the time Waggers capped it in 2007. That's not the behavior of a proper name, and not what we mean by "consitently capitalized". Dicklyon (talk) 15:17, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Again I ask Dicklyon to remove the outlier Hudson River School from the list above. Waggers and others, please note the n-grams supporting 'Hudson River School' seem to be over 90%. For those who doubt that Hudson River School is normally uppercased see the articles linked on this page and subsequent pages for its central place in American art history, thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose, taking proper names and impropering them is not the purpose of Wikipedia. For example, Hudson River School is the long-time proper name of the art movement and has very few equals as a known group of American artists. Trying to lowercase history does humanity no favors. Wikipedia is better than this. Randy Kryn (talk) 10:02, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose per RK. One or two of these might be alright, but certainly not eg Hudson River School. Some of the Italian ones could/should be moved to eg Bolognese painting. The nom's "Schools of art, schools of thought, etc., are usually rendered in sources with lowercase school" is simply not true. A bunch of the the usual lower-case fanatics who othwerwise don't edit in this field at all have showed up. "School of.." is an old-fashioned way of describing artistic groups and movements, and the sources normally treat the terms as proper names. The April discussion (Crete, Novgorod etc) was a bad mistake, which ought to be reversed. Johnbod (talk) 13:28, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- The Hudson River School is one that started out capped and stayed 60–80% capped in books for over a hundred years, so I can see not lowercasing that one. Are there others that you object to for reasons like that? As for Bolognese painting, that would be OK, too, but Bolognese school of painting is also very common in sources, and was once very domiant (see n-gram stats). I'd have no objection to changing it, but such other changes would make this RM overly complicated. Let's fix the over-capitalization first. Dicklyon (talk) 14:42, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Comment: The ones for Italian cities should probably all be moved to titles consistent with Florentine painting and Venetian painting, because "School" is rather old-fashioned in that field: Bolognese School, School of Ferrara, Forlivese school of art, Genoese School (painting), Lucchese School, Sienese School → Bolognese painting, Ferrarese painting, Forlivese painting, Genoese painting, Lucchese painting, Sienese painting. (I wouldn't advocate doing the same for the others.)
Here are some more article titles in art history or architectural history: Amsterdam School, Barbizon School, Chilote school of religious imagery, Delft School (architecture), Glasgow School, Hague School, Munich school, Traditionalist School (architecture). (Also School of Fontainebleau, School of London, School of Paris, School of Posillipo, School of Reims, School of Resina and School of Tuam, and École de Nancy.) Outside those fields there are Genoese School, Sicilian School and numerous others at Category:Schools of thought, Category:Composition schools and their subcategories. There are also the disambiguation pages Berlin school, Birmingham School, Bologna School, Boston School, Chicago school, Dutch School, Italian school, Manchester school, New York School and Norwich School (disambiguation). I'm just gathering evidence at this stage, but I would expect many if not most of these to be proper names in usage. Ham II (talk) 15:32, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Something has struck me while looking at usage for one of these, the Barbizon School. I've come across constructions like "Barbizon School paintings" and "Barbizon School painters". They're rather more ambiguous if the modifier is in sentence case: "Barbizon school paintings" and "Barbizon school painters". Would anyone know what a "Boston school painter" was meant to be? A "Traditionalist school building" would be seriously ambiguous. I've actually found one instance of "Hudson River school contemporaries", which sounds like people who went to school together on the Hudson River! Ham II (talk) 19:53, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- The conventional solution offered by English punctuation to disambiguate the parse in such cases is to hyphenate compounds used as modifiers: Barbizon-school painters, etc. Dicklyon (talk) 22:17, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well, that never happens in art history, as you will find if you run some of your unreliable n-grams. We should certainly not be inventingt terms here on WP. Johnbod (talk) 01:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well, the other thing that's common within a field (such as art history) is to assume that terms such as "Barbizon school" as well known enough that the reader doesn't need a hyphen to clarify the parse. This works fine within art history, but may confuse the uninitiated, as Ham II points out. And they do sometimes resort to capital letters to emphasize that those words stick together, too. So "Barbizon school painters" and "Barbizon School painters" are the most common ways of rendering the phrase, in materials written for the art history reader. When writing for a more general audience, it is not making up terms to give them a clue using the affordances of English punctuation; it's just not very common. But not never. See e.g. "several Barbizon-school exhibitions ..." and "of Barbizon-school painter ..." Dicklyon (talk) 04:22, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well, that never happens in art history, as you will find if you run some of your unreliable n-grams. We should certainly not be inventingt terms here on WP. Johnbod (talk) 01:53, 28 July 2024 (UTC)
- The conventional solution offered by English punctuation to disambiguate the parse in such cases is to hyphenate compounds used as modifiers: Barbizon-school painters, etc. Dicklyon (talk) 22:17, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Something has struck me while looking at usage for one of these, the Barbizon School. I've come across constructions like "Barbizon School paintings" and "Barbizon School painters". They're rather more ambiguous if the modifier is in sentence case: "Barbizon school paintings" and "Barbizon school painters". Would anyone know what a "Boston school painter" was meant to be? A "Traditionalist school building" would be seriously ambiguous. I've actually found one instance of "Hudson River school contemporaries", which sounds like people who went to school together on the Hudson River! Ham II (talk) 19:53, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Strong oppose Looking at the titles of the works listed as References and Further Reading items for the EN:WP articles on, for example, the Delft School, the Norwich School and the Boston School among others than the upper-case form is clearly the accepted and commonly used name.14GTR (talk) 17:06, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Capitalization in titles is irrelevant. We need to assess capitalization in sentence context, per MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS. Dicklyon (talk) 18:39, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Note – I have removed all the "Strongs". No need to overheat the discussion. Revert if you object. Dicklyon (talk) 18:11, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Just unbelievable! Restored mine. Please DON'T mess with others' comments you don't like again. You really should know better. Johnbod (talk) 21:57, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support: Most of the discussion so far has been about how other sources capitalize, and that's relevant, but our own Manual of Style at MOS:MOVEMENT says:
"Doctrines, ideologies, philosophies, theologies, theories, movements, methods, processes, systems or schools of thought and practice, and fields of academic study or professional practice are not capitalized"
(italics in the original). If some of these are actual named organizations, then they are proper names and capitalization is appropriate, but most of these are informal groupings named for a locality. SchreiberBike | ⌨ 19:27, 26 July 2024 (UTC)- As has often been pointed out, this silly part of the guideline has never been observed - we don't (of course) use impressionism, renaissance and so on. But who can be bothered to take on the lower-case fanatics? Johnbod (talk) 21:40, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure all would agree that Renaissance is a proper noun; it's over 90% capped in books. Impessionism, on the other hand is only 2/3 capped, per book n-gram stats, and is used lowercase in over 800 Wikipedia articles. Some of those may be wrong, but I wouldn't assume it should always be capped, given the common lowercase usage in books. You're right though that a lot of article titles go against guidelines. That's a big part of what I work on. Dicklyon (talk) 23:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Based on previous discussions, I'm pretty sure all would not - and the MOS avoids using "proper noun" as the definition of that has been so much disputed in the past. Johnbod (talk) 19:46, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- That just means another group to uppercase, in this instance 800 miscased examples of Impressionism. I've done uppercase correction runs in quite a few in that number range (most recently am chipping away at uppercasing 'Industrial Revolution', have finally got those down to under 500). Randy Kryn (talk) 00:11, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's hard to see how you could justify capping at Abstract impressionism and such. Dicklyon (talk) 00:36, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed, I don't think I've uppercased any of the examples of 'Abstract impressionism', which is a different animal altogether. Randy Kryn (talk) 08:42, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, one of the important reasons why Impressionism needs capitalizing is that at least the adjectival form "impressionist" (and related forms) is otherwise ambiguous - it will be found in art history in both contexts where it refers to the specific Impressionist movement and those where it does not. Johnbod (talk) 14:16, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well I'm glad I didn't make a big job for Randy then! And now I understand that Impressionism is like Renaissance in the way you said. As usual, the over-riding criterion at MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS leads to the right answer: these are consistently capitalized in sources, so we cap them. I apologize for my wrong first Impression. Dicklyon (talk) 14:47, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- So you agree we should completely ignore MOS:MOVEMENT aka MOSDOCTCAPS, which says "Doctrines, ideologies, philosophies, theologies, theories, movements, methods, processes, systems or schools of thought and practice, and fields of academic study or professional practice are not capitalized, unless the name derives from a proper name. E.g., lowercase republican refers to a general system of political thought (republican sentiment in Ireland); uppercase Republican is used in reference to specific political parties with this word in their names (each being a proper-noun phrase) in various countries (a Democratic versus Republican Party stalemate in the US Senate)." Johnbod (talk) 19:46, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Why would you ignore it? It's useful guidance. In the rare case where it conflicts with the top-level provisions of MOS:CAPS (about consistently capitalized in sources), you'll probably want to give priority to the senior guidance, so sure, ignore it if you wish. In cases like the current ones, where there is no conflict, it's not an issue. Or if it is, show us what's consistently capitalized in sources. Dicklyon (talk) 22:14, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- So you agree we should completely ignore MOS:MOVEMENT aka MOSDOCTCAPS, which says "Doctrines, ideologies, philosophies, theologies, theories, movements, methods, processes, systems or schools of thought and practice, and fields of academic study or professional practice are not capitalized, unless the name derives from a proper name. E.g., lowercase republican refers to a general system of political thought (republican sentiment in Ireland); uppercase Republican is used in reference to specific political parties with this word in their names (each being a proper-noun phrase) in various countries (a Democratic versus Republican Party stalemate in the US Senate)." Johnbod (talk) 19:46, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Well I'm glad I didn't make a big job for Randy then! And now I understand that Impressionism is like Renaissance in the way you said. As usual, the over-riding criterion at MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS leads to the right answer: these are consistently capitalized in sources, so we cap them. I apologize for my wrong first Impression. Dicklyon (talk) 14:47, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- It's hard to see how you could justify capping at Abstract impressionism and such. Dicklyon (talk) 00:36, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure all would agree that Renaissance is a proper noun; it's over 90% capped in books. Impessionism, on the other hand is only 2/3 capped, per book n-gram stats, and is used lowercase in over 800 Wikipedia articles. Some of those may be wrong, but I wouldn't assume it should always be capped, given the common lowercase usage in books. You're right though that a lot of article titles go against guidelines. That's a big part of what I work on. Dicklyon (talk) 23:38, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- As has often been pointed out, this silly part of the guideline has never been observed - we don't (of course) use impressionism, renaissance and so on. But who can be bothered to take on the lower-case fanatics? Johnbod (talk) 21:40, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- Support. This is precisely what MOS:DOCTCAPS is about, and these moves should also be effectuated per WP:CONSISTENT policy, to agree with our treatment of all other "schools of thought" sort of subjects. See also recent RM: Talk:French liberal school#Requested move 2 July 2024. Same issue. PS: If one or another of these things turns out to be an actual instution (a school in the usual sense) and a proper name thereby, then sever it from the rest, but proceed with lower-casing the others. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 07:19, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- So Renaissance and Impressionism should be lc? See just above. Johnbod (talk) 19:49, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's my thinking. These aren't the names of institutions; they are just identifications of loose style categories or movements. Consistent lowercasing can help show that. — BarrelProof (talk) 19:04, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
Some source data
editPeople don't seem to have been checking, so I'll help. Dicklyon (talk) 18:39, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
Easy cases: n-gram stats for Bolognese, Pont-Aven, Cuzco, Sienese, Cologne show between 50% and 80% lowercase, nowhere close to our criteria for capping. And Lucchese school only shows up lowercase.
Here is a clearer view for the Cologne school of painting; very much lowercase. I'm not finding much on the music, other than the actual school Cologne School of Music, which is not the topic of Cologne School (music); the sources are mostly in German, which won't help, so I'd say just follow our guidelines.
Harder cases are where caps are common due to actual school names (Delft School of Design, Delft School of Microbiology, Boston School of <lots of things>, Norwich School of Art & Design, Quito School of Art, Quito School of Fine Arts, Volcano School of Arts & Sciences.
Oftentimes, the n-grams will resolve these, e.g. Quito School of Art, School of Fine Arts, vs school of painting and school of art. Norwich school of painters or painting, Delft school of painting, Boston school of painting.
It's hard to find sources on the Volcano School. The article's reference are thin and not very inaccessible. In a Google Books search, I see 2 capped and 1 lowercase in the first 10 hits, where the rest of the hits are on different topics. On the second page of 10, find 1 and 1. So it's hardly "consistently capitalized" in sources.
The Hudson River School downcasing has been particularly objected to, as it's more commonly capped in sources. Here are n-grams, showing it's hardly a slam-dunk in light of the criteria articulated in MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS, but I do see their point.
That's all of them. Users who have expressed opinions without data would do well to have another look. Dicklyon (talk) 18:58, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- You are the one who launched this slap-dash nom bundling unrelated subjects without proper research. "School" is such a common word that Google searches including it have to be taken with a strong pinch of salt, even more than most N-grams. What strong recent RS can you produce lower casing it in Hudson River School or Sienese school? A normal google search on the latter shows pages of very reputable pages from museums, art historians & auction houses capitalizing it, while those that don't are on linked-in, instagram etc. Johnbod (talk) 21:54, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- I actually did check all that I listed before I did this RM. I just didn't post all the complicated evidence, figuring people would look for themselves in any case. Nothing slap-dash about it. And yes the common uses of "school" make it non-trivial, which I why I detailed my finding with links above. For Sienese school, check out recent books: 2023, 2013, 2021, for example. The Hudson River one is harder, admittedly. Here's one from 2005, and one from 2009 (and that wasn't part of my nom, recall). Dicklyon (talk) 23:17, 26 July 2024 (UTC)
- That "2023" result is a reprint of a book of 1855, the "2013" one is a reprint of one of 1923 and "2021" is a reprint from 1902! I wonder if all ngrams for "[Italian city] school" are scrambled and give an artificial boost to an antiquated turn of phrase. "Sienese painting" appears more in recent book titles, whereas book titles with "Sienese school" skew earlier. Ham II (talk) 08:42, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- Good point! Then we'll probably want to follow up with an RM to move to XXX paining instead of S/school, whichever way this RM goes. Dicklyon (talk) 14:08, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- That "2023" result is a reprint of a book of 1855, the "2013" one is a reprint of one of 1923 and "2021" is a reprint from 1902! I wonder if all ngrams for "[Italian city] school" are scrambled and give an artificial boost to an antiquated turn of phrase. "Sienese painting" appears more in recent book titles, whereas book titles with "Sienese school" skew earlier. Ham II (talk) 08:42, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- But it was you who accepted Hudson River School as part of your nomination, lumping it in with the questionable ones. Trying to "take out" a prominent uppercasing by mixing it in with obvious lowercasings? Not a practice that should be done on Wikipedia. Randy Kryn (talk) 00:20, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- I said "feel free" without checking to see if I would have proposed it myself. That was not smart. It's fine if you and others oppose that one, but that's not a reason to oppose the ones that are more often lowercase in sources (like the Hudson River school was 50 years ago, but no longer). Dicklyon (talk) 03:30, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- And yet you allow Hudson River School to stay in your nom knowing that editors 'support' the entire list. You pretty much admit here and elsewhere that Hudson River School has the n-gram and source evidence to uppercase but you still allow it to be lumped in with obvious lowercasings. What, do you hope it will slip through and be lowercased along with the others and, if so, why? Randy Kryn (talk) 08:51, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- That's not quite a correct characterization of my position. I agree that one has the weakest case, yet it's still not "consistently capitalized in sources" and I'd still downcase it for consistency with guidelines. It's not one I'd fight for, but others have supported it, so we'll see. I expect that with the explicit opposition to that one, a closer would treat it as the exception. Dicklyon (talk) 14:04, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- And yet you allow Hudson River School to stay in your nom knowing that editors 'support' the entire list. You pretty much admit here and elsewhere that Hudson River School has the n-gram and source evidence to uppercase but you still allow it to be lumped in with obvious lowercasings. What, do you hope it will slip through and be lowercased along with the others and, if so, why? Randy Kryn (talk) 08:51, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- I said "feel free" without checking to see if I would have proposed it myself. That was not smart. It's fine if you and others oppose that one, but that's not a reason to oppose the ones that are more often lowercase in sources (like the Hudson River school was 50 years ago, but no longer). Dicklyon (talk) 03:30, 27 July 2024 (UTC)
- I actually did check all that I listed before I did this RM. I just didn't post all the complicated evidence, figuring people would look for themselves in any case. Nothing slap-dash about it. And yes the common uses of "school" make it non-trivial, which I why I detailed my finding with links above. For Sienese school, check out recent books: 2023, 2013, 2021, for example. The Hudson River one is harder, admittedly. Here's one from 2005, and one from 2009 (and that wasn't part of my nom, recall). Dicklyon (talk) 23:17, 26 July 2024 (UTC)