Talk:Bernard Tomic

2007 & 2008

It's mixed up. Tomic didnt win the Junior Aussie Open in 2007, he did it in 2008.

Florida Orange Bowl

It should be mentioned that he had won the Florida Orange Bowl Tournament 3 times consectuvily. This should be mentioned because every time he is mentioned in the papers this feat is harped about. Apparently it is the most prestigous non grand slam junior tournament in the world. The papers might be talkng shit, but this should still be mentioned, because they are his only achievements to date.

What the hell? there is only a under 12 and a under 14 Orange Bowl so how the hell can you win it three times consecutively?, people need to get their facts straight before they should even contribute! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jah89 (talk • contribs) 14:30, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Sandefjord

his father, jovan tomić, is montenegrin, and his mother, ady, is croatian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.198.201.67 (talk) 18:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

man, you are talking sheet. his fathers name is ivica and he is croatian from tuzla, bih, ex yu. i know his relative who lives in zagreb. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.2.3.61 (talk) 21:09, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Picture

Ok, I have just given the article a much needed boost; it now has some interesting information about his junior career. However, I can't seem to find a decent picture, perhaps someone could work on that? 202.89.163.157 (talk) 08:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

His parents are from the Bosnia

Bernard Tomic was born in Germany but his parents are war refugees from Tuzla, a town in northern Bosnia.

Bernard's father is an ethnic Croat while his mother is an ethnic Bosniak both from Tuzla.

Zec (talk) 23:09, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

That is fine. Can you provide a source to confirm these statistics? If so, we can amend the lede to include his Bosniak background (alongside Croatian) as well as add the Bosnian language to the opening translation. Evlekis (talk) 07:48, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

WILL HE PLAY FOR CROATIA?

please put articles and opinions about that theme. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.172.144.157 (talk) 16:03, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

"I speak Croatian. My parents have a Croatian background" (20.01.11 Interview)

These are Bernard Tomic's OWN WORDS in the press interview he gave at the Australian Open on 20.01.11

http://www.australianopen.com/en_AU/news/interviews/2011-01-20/201101201295505489338.html (scroll to the bottom of the page)

Removing this PRIMARY SOURCE and lying about his parents' ethnicity will not hide the TRUTH !

Tifetondu (talk) 17:38, 26 June 2011 (UTC)

It seems you have failed to read the article correctly. It is well known that Bernard Tomic is of Bosnian descent (his mother's side) as well as Croatian.

However, when asked about what languages he speaks fluently (which was what the question was about), he mentioned the Croatian language and cited his parents' part-Croatian background as the reason for this. It has nothing to with his part-Bosnian background, as illustrated by many sources - it is purely to do with the origin of his spoken dialect.

As anyone from ex-Yugoslavia (or familiar with it's history) would tell you, the Bosnian language was only established as an official standard in Bosnia and Herzegovina long after it's independence in 1992. The Bosnian language was never taught as an official language in Yugoslavian schools.

Jas315 (talk) 03:08, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Another source referring to the descent of Bernard's family, rather than the origins of his language (which seems to have been deleted by Tifetondu):

"It was also at that time that, coincidentally, Guiney's wife Kate was teaching English to Tomic's Bosnian maternal grandmother."

http://www.theage.com.au/news/sport/tennis/first-coach-still-plays-a-key-role-in-tomics-emerging-career/2009/01/22/1232471497977.html?page=2

(Fourth paragraph)

I advise that you stop vandalising the article. Thank you.

Jas315 (talk) 06:07, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

It seems that you have failed to read the interview correctly yourself and are inferring what is simply not stated by Tomic about the Bosnian language. FYI, the term "Bosnian" INCLUDES Bosnian Croats and there are no sources in the article verifying any other ethnic background but Croatian as stated by Tomic himself. Sorry, but having a "Bosnian maternal grandmother" doesn't mean that she is a "Bosniak" (Epic fail here !) but simply from Bosnia, as anyone from ex-Yugoslavia would tell you. Once again, "Bosnian" is not an ethnicity of its own, is not a constitutive ethnic group in Bosnia, and doesn't mean "Bosniak"

Spare me the lecture and false accusation about deleting your meaningless source, and just post a verifiable source in English to prove that Tomic is also of "BOSNIAK" or "BOSNIAN SERB" descent.

Otherwise I advise you stop misrepresenting and vandalising the article. Thank you.

Tifetondu (talk) 06:52, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

There are several sources that state his ancestors are Bosnian, but none that say Bosniak. Furthermore, the Bosniak page states "The term Bosnian is used to denote all inhabitants of Bosnia regardless of ethnic origin", so the sensible thing is to use the term "Bosnian" to satisfy both cases. Absconded Northerner (talk) 13:54, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Bernard Tomic might identify more as Croat because his father is Croat named Ivica from Tuzla, town in northern Bosnia, while his mother is Bosniak named Adisa and is from Brcko, a town also in northern Bosnia.

His parents were really young when the war started, his mom was a student while his dad was a taxi driver.

PS: Bosniak=Bosnian just as Croat=Croatian in most situations, even if a Bosniak from Croatia mght be Croatian in a sense that he is from Croatia just as a Croat from Bosnia is a Bosnian in a sense that he is from Bosnia.

Zec (talk) 15:02, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Which source is that in? I can't find it. Absconded Northerner (talk) 17:02, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

I hear you Absconded Northerner. As you have yourself removed the unsourced term "Bosniak" from the article today, you can see here again with "Zec" that the term "Bosnian" is still constantly associated and confused with "Bosniak" by most editors and Bosniak themselves who have absolutely no English or translatable sources to verify that Tomic's mother is Bosniak whatsoever. That's why Bernard Tomic himself specified both his parents "Croatian background" (not just his father) in his press conference, like any ethnic Croat expatriate would do whether their parents are from Croatia itself and/or from Bosnia. That said, I agree with your proposal and would like to satisfy both cases by simply using Croatian and Bosnian "origins" instead to avoid any more unsourced claim and confusion about the ethnicity of Tomic's mother. I doubt it will change much here anyway, though, at this unsourced myth has already taken a life of its own all over the Internet because of Wikipedia. It won't be long when some journalist will repeat it in an article after briefly looking at Tomic's page here, and it will come back full circle as a source, LOL !

Tifetondu (talk) 18:07, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Category:Australian people of German descent ?

The Category:Australian people of German descent, added in this edit on 4 August 2010 by Mayumashu, should be removed from this article. Tomic or his parents were never German, as far as we know. Being born in Germany before 2000 does not confer German citizenship, which is quite difficult to obtain. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:58, 28 June 2011 (UTC)

Mother's name is Adisa, which is a Bosniak name for females - Also, Croatian article stating that Tomic is of "Croatian and Bosnian roots"

A source from the International Tennis Federation (which has been recently added to the article) shows that his mother's name is Adisa (along with the names of his father and sister) -

http://www.itftennis.com/mens/players/player.asp?player=100096396

As anyone from ex-Yugoslavia would know, Adisa is a Bosniak name for females. Ethnic Croatian females are not given this name.

Articles from the Western world use the term "Bosnian" to refer to Bosniaks and people from Bosnia as a whole, as this is what the term essentially means. Most notably, they have used the term to refer to Tomic's maternal side of the family (predominantly his mother), so while it is common knowledge that Bernard's mother is a Bosniak, it should not deter the article from using the term "Bosnian".

For what it's worth, the term Bosnian Australian is used to refer to Australians with Bosnian ancestry (Bosniaks) and Australians who have come from Bosnia.

Also, another important thing to note is that all sources provided mention "Croatian and Bosnian" when referring to Tomic's roots. Tthe following Croatian news-read (which has also been recently added to the article as a source) does this -

"BERNARD TOMIĆ, 18-godišnji Australac hrvatskih i bosanskih korijena"

Translated:

"Bernard Tomic, the 18-year-old Australian of Croatian and Bosnian roots"

http://www.index.hr/sport/clanak/rezultat-karijere-18godisnjeg-tomica-morao-sam-si-dati-sansu-/558192.aspx

I think it's time one certain vandal (signature starting with T) stops vandalising the article (for whatever reason, I do not know - most likely out of nationalistic bias) and takes every relevant source into account. Tomic is of both Croatian and Bosnian (Bosniak) roots. Nothing but the factual truth is meant to be added to Wikipedia articles - pure and simple. These sources only solidify this.

Jas315 (talk) 03:21, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Until you have a source that uses the term "Bosniak", you can't use it on the article. It's as simple as that. Absconded Northerner (talk) 09:34, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I did not propose the use of the term "Bosniak" - in fact, my post stated that the articles written by the Western world use the term "Bosnian", which includes Bosniaks AND people from Bosnia. Also, the term Bosnian Australian refers to Australian Bosniaks and Australians from Bosnia. Thus, I pointed out that the use of the word "Bosnian" was appropriate as not only would it negate any confusion when referring to sources but it would also be a factually correct.

Bernard's mother, Adisa, is a Bosniak, due to the fact that her name is a Bosniak name - and no Croatian female would be called such a name due to the fact that names (and especially last names) in ex-Yugoslavia hold a big value in terms of recognition among each other based on religion and culture. However, the term Bosnian or Bosnian Australian would suffice just as well.

Jas315 (talk) 09:43, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I have also found an article which states that Adisa (Tomic's mother) was born with the last name Vatić prior to marrying Ivica (John) Tomic (Tomic's father).

"dok je majka Adisa, rođena Vatić, iz Brčkog."

Translated:

"while his mother Adisa, born Vatić, from Brčko."

http://sportsport.ba/tenis/tomic-stigao-beckera/59658

As anyone from ex-Yugoslavia would tell you, Vatić is a Bosniak last name. The fact that both the first name, Adisa, and the last name, Vatić, are Bosniak names is not a coincidence. The best way to see this for yourself (if you are not as knowledgeable with Balkan names) is to search Vatić in Facebook which will return names such as "Azra", "Aldina", "Alma", "Emina", "Adnan", "Hajrija", "Lejla", "Enes", "Elvira", "Meliha", "Senad", "Haris", "Emrah", "Kenan", "Safet", "Tarik" and so and so forth. All of these names are Bosniak names and the majority (if not all, except for English nicknames) will be Bosniak names. As any ex-Yugoslav would tell you, no Bosniak (Muslim) will have a Croatian last name, let alone the majority.

The only way for Adisa to obtain a Bosniak last name upon birth is for her father to be a Bosniak himself - and considering there is a source in the article already stating that Tomic's maternal grandmother is Bosnian (Not Croatian, or Bosnian Croatian - Bosnian) - it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that Adisa (Bosniak first name) is a Bosniak/Bosnian mother to Bernard. Whether or not English articles are used to posting the term "Bosnian" instead of "Bosniak" when referring to anyone from Bosnia - she is simply not a Croat.

I urge anyone other than Tife to consider this, as Tife is constantly choosing to ignore these sources and hard facts, resulting in a nationalistic article, rather than a truthful (and factual) one.

Jas315 (talk) 10:11, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I've finally found the policy I've been looking for - WP:SYNTH. You're not allowed to say "Fact 1 + Fact 2 = Fact 3" on this site - you have to find a reliable source (WP:RS) that says it for you. It doesn't matter whether or not you believe it to be true, you need to find a source. That's the end of the matter. Absconded Northerner (talk) 10:57, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Parents' nationality

I'm not going to edit it because it seems that there has been a great deal of discussion on this topic, but having thirteen footnotes at the end of that sentence is stupid, it is making the article look messy. I think perhaps the three most reliable sources would be sufficient. Mato (talk) 13:33, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Agree completely with you, Mato. Jenks24 (talk) 13:34, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree too. Several of them don't really address the issue of his parentage anyway, only his place of birth - and nobody's disagreeing about that (yet!). Absconded Northerner (talk) 13:36, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Let's settle this

After my request at WP:RFPP, Fastily has been kind enough to fully-protect this page for three days so we can sort this dispute about Tomic's parents' nationality out on the talk page, rather than edit-warring over it. Firstly, I'd like to say that, although I have no actual authority, I'd be happy to try and mediate this dispute (I have no horse in this race) so that, hopefully, a compromise can be reached that will be acceptable to all involved. To begin, I think it would probably be best if everyone could explain what they believe the article should say in regards to his ancestry and why (eg reliable sources) without making comments on other editors or their opinions. I'll shortly notify everyone who has expressed a recent interest in this particular section of the article. Hope I haven't come across too preachy, Jenks24 (talk) 20:10, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I'm going to reply properly tomorrow but for now all I'm going to say is that I'm astonished that this kind of level of disagreement can result over the unknown parents of somebody famous. I'm glad the article has been locked from further editing because it's clear that this is the only way to get some people to talk here. Absconded Northerner (talk) 20:28, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Personally, I think that the only legit source, in this edit war, should be an interview from Bernard Tomic himself, that he gave to australianopen.com. That is the cleanest source you can get, personally from the mouth of Tomic. Other sources I don't know, since there has been an history of false informations from what Wikipedia considers a reliable sources. Look at the examples of Asher Roth or Zac Efron claimes of them being Jews. Anything else, is just pure speculation from a "reliable" source reporters, that can be wrong, in fact they were in many occasions. If you can't get a confirmation where Tomic personally claimes his mother Bosnian ancestry, then don't do it. Why wouldn't he claim his mother Bosnian ancestry if that is so? His interview to australianopen.com is the closest you can get to the truth, and there he claimes Croatian ancestry to both of his parents. That is my opinion, hope I've been helpful. Cheers, --89.164.147.134 (talk) 21:23, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

The only compromise that can be reached is if we all agree on the truth. Tomic's parents are from Bosnia and Herzegovina. Everyone knows that. All Croatian and Bosnian media report this (in English or otherwise). His father is a Bosnian catholic and mother Bosnian Muslim however they are Bosnians. Had they been from Croatia they would be Croats. However, Bernard is playing for his adopted country Australia and that should be stated as number one, everything else is irrelevant. If we can't agree on this then remove all reference to Bosnia/Croatia and only leave parents full names in the article. Let people judge for themselves. End of story. ~ BiHVolim

Hi BiHVolim, one of Wikipedia's core policies is verifiability, which means that you must provide reliable sources to back up your assertions. Therefore could you please some references (they don't have to be in English) that state that Tomic's parents are only of Bosnian heritage? Alternatively, do you believe that Absconded Northerner's compromise, stating that his parents are of Croatian and Bosnian descent is acceptable? Cheers, Jenks24 (talk) 09:15, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Ethnicity is and always has been very fluid. Bosnia and Herzegovina is a sovereign state and the 90%+ majority belong to one of three South Slavic ethnic designations: Croat, Muslim (including Bosniak) and Serb. There is consistency to a degree between faith and ethnic group (ie. Catholic Croats, Muslims self-explained and Orthodox Serbs) but there are a few unusual combinations. For example, the number of Bosniaks outnumbers those who are Muslim by faith. The question is how does an individual identify and where are the sources? If the location (here, Bosnia) is known but there is no further information on how the parents identify, we need to state: parents originally from Bosnia, and leave it at that. If we know what the parents classed themselves, then present these things as the subjects's background. Of course, he too is free to declare himself as he chooses. There is a possibility that his Catholic father declares Bosniak or Bosnian but this needs proof; the overwhelming majority of Catholics of Bosnia declare Croat. Evlekis (Евлекис) 23:14, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

Most of the comments above have no relevance here, since Wikipedia is about Reliable Sources, not phrases like "Everyone knows that". I've gone through the sources, and separated them out as follows:

These sources either state, or imply, a Croatian background:

• Tomic says "Well, I speak Croatian. My parents have a Croatian background" [1]

• "Tomic was born in Stuttgart, Germany to Croatian parents, John and Ady," [2]

• "The Croatian-born John and Ady Tomic were refugees after the break-up of Yugoslavia" [3]

• "Was born in Stuttgart, Germany to Croatian parents" [4]

• "Tomic, who was born in Stuttgart to Croatian parents" [5]

• "The 18-year-old, whose Croatian parents took him Down Under" [6]

These sources imply a mixed, Croatian and Bosnian background:

• "BERNARD TOMIC, 18-godišnji Australac hrvatskih i bosanskih korijena napravio je u Wimbledonu rezultat karijere!" ("Bernard Tomic, the 18-year-old Australian of Croatian and Bosnian roots was made at Wimbledon result of his career!" - via Google Translate) [7]

• "the 18-year-old son of Bosnian and Croatian parents" [8]

• "parents of Bosnian and Croatian descent." [9]

• "Tomic's Bosnian maternal grandmother." [10]

These sources say nothing about his parentage, and only mention his birthplace - they should be moved to a better place or even removed entirely, since nobody disagrees that he was born in Germany:

• http://www.perthnow.com.au/sport/tennis/tomic-to-take-anything-is-possible-approach-in-wimbledon-quarters/story-e6frg273-1226083535369
• http://www.itftennis.com/mens/players/player.asp?player=100096396

This source says nothing about his parentage, but is another source that he threatened to switch to Croatia at one point:

• "The Tomic camp has previously threatened to switch allegiance to Croatia" [11]

The first thing to note is that not one single source uses the term "Bosniak", which means to use it here is SYNTH and not allowed. Next is that not one source is clear about where either parent was born, although it's clear that his ancestry is at least partly Croatian and partly Bosnian (the maternal grandmother means he's at least 1/8 Bosnian).

My suggestion for the opening para is something like the following: "Tomic was born in Stuttgart, Germany, on 21 October 1992. His parents, John and Ady, are of Croatian and Bosnian descent, having left Croatia several years before Tomic's birth. They were both working in Germany when Tomic was born, before relocating to Queensland when he was 3 years old. His younger sister Sara is also a professional tennis player."

Hopefully that's non-specific enough to keep everybody happy - or at least, equally unhappy. Absconded Northerner (talk) 08:46, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

You have an interview of Bernard Tomić where he states his parents Croatian origin, that to me is no brainier. Anything else could be considered as a unsourced info. If only all Wiki sources could be such clear as the one where Bernard Tomić states his parents ancestry. And further more you have a statement from his father John when had threatened to quit Australia, having Bernard play for Croatia. To my opinion is should state that his parents have a Croatian background, and nothing else, as that are the words directly from Bernard Tomić. Who are you to question his own statements?--Eversman (talk) 11:58, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

You're using one source when there are a dozen. Please take a serious look at the evidence before using one quote to support your point of view. Absconded Northerner (talk) 12:15, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Croatian seems to be the definite ethnicity but it is more cordial to apply Bosnian Croat. There may be a fear that this plays into the hands of those pushing for a more Bosniak outlook. Most subjects are only too happy for this detail. Evlekis (Евлекис) 12:28, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not pushing for anything. I don't care one way or the other, and I have to say I find it surprising that people are fighting that theirs should be the country that his parents left to go somewhere else. I've already stated that the word "Bosniak" doesn't appear in any of the published sources so it can't be used in the article. I've suggested a compromise wording. If that's not acceptable then I'll leave you all to fight amongst yourselves, because I'm getting bored. Absconded Northerner (talk) 12:59, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I am using the only source that is actually an interview from Bernard Tomic, his own words, his own beliefs, all other sources are not that. So rightfully I am standing behind everything I have written. It should state that his parents have a Croatian background, and nothing else. Again, Who are we to question his own statements?--Eversman (talk) 13:14, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia requires verifiability. It's possible - and likely, judging from other sources - that Tomic was simplifying a fairly complex background. Just as I could say that I have an English background, I also have recent ancestors from Ireland and Scotland. Arthur Brown said "I am the god of Hellfire!", but that's not included on the personal section of his page for obvious reasons. There are plenty of cases where public figures lie about their details for whatever reason. For instance, David Boreanaz pretended to be younger than he really was in order to land a TV role. We cannot simply accept a person's statement about their history. Absconded Northerner (talk) 13:21, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

You are not here to interpret Bernard Tomić's interview, you don't know that he was simplifying, neither do you know that his background is complex. You have his own words, a by God you should accept them as the only legit source, since all other sources are not an interviews from him. If my Wiki page states that I am of Croatian and Jewish ancestry, then I don't need anyone to interpret my own words like he fits.--Eversman (talk) 13:31, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

The first quote is very vague. I think it's important to make sure no source is being taken out of context. Stripping quotes before and after one quote tends to give a whole new meaning to the said quote.

When reading Tomic's answer to the question, "Can you talk a little bit about your childhood. I read you were born in Germany. Do you speak German?"

It becomes clear that he's talking about the origins of the languages (other than English) that are native to him (especially when reading the conclusion to his response) - with the explanation of his fluency in Croatian being that his parents "have" "a" Croatian background.

"Well, I speak Croatian. My parents have a Croatian background. And German, I speak a little bit. Not fluently. I moved out of there when I was young. It's tough for me to learn. Yeah, I speak two languages."

Notice that he did not use the explanation "My parents "are" Croatian" in regards to his fluency in the Croatian language. Tomic has been in Australia since he was 3 years old - the kid knows how to coherently express himself. If his intention was to explicitly confirm his full ethnicity, or the full ethnicity of his parents, he would have done so. Simply put, the quote neither confirms or denies the full ethnicity of his parents - anything else would be an assumption, moving away from each and every other direct source provided altogether.

As for his father threatening Australian Tennis with the notion of Bernard playing for Croatia - well duh, that's a no brainer. Considering his Croatian father was his coach and mentor, there is no doubt that he would have had an influence to play for Croatia, bluff or not. Also, it is well known that Croatian Tennis is much more backed than Bosnian Tennis (even Amer Delic, who is a Bosniak, chooses to play for the U.S due to how poorly funded Bosnian Tennis is) - so if any serious tennis player had the option of playing for either Croatia or Bosnia, they would choose Croatia, full stop. I do not see how this sort of thing would be an indication of anyone's full ethnicity anyway.

And lastly, the article that has been translated (which refers to Tomic as an Australian of Croatian and Bosnian roots) comes from a Croatian (.hr) website, published in Croatia. So if there was any real opportunity for a media organization to be nationalistically opinionated and point out the idea that both his parents are ethnic Croats, this would have been the perfect time to do so - but alas, they chose not to.

In the end, numerous sources make note of both Croatian and Bosnian origins. None of the sources use the term "Bosniak" or "Bosnian Croat" - which also makes sense due to the fact that these terms are only applied to people currently residing in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Considering both of Tomic's parents (namely his mother, who's ethnicity is under dispute) are from Bosnia and Herzegovina, but currently reside in Australia, his mother would be classified as "Bosnian Australian" (note the nationally recognized term "Bosnian"), as this term refers to Australians of Bosnian ancestry and/or Australians who have come from Bosnia and Herzegovina. You would not need to find out his mother's full ethnicity for this to be the case.

In response to Evlekis, it is of an impression that you feel very nationalistically opposed to the correct terms given, which comes off rather spiteful to Bosnians as a whole (Bosniaks or otherwise). I find it quite baffling that you would dispute the use of "Bosnian" (which is both a correct term and used in sources) and yet propose "Bosnian Croat", which is neither used in any source, nor a correct term given to people outside of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In fact, no where does it explicitly confirm that his mother was either born in Croatia or born with full Croatian ethnicity. There are sources however, that refer to her, and Tomic's maternal side of his family as being Bosnian (a correct and nationally recognized term). To conclude, I don't think it would be out of place to assume that you are "pushing" for a poorly evidenced notion that both his parents are Croatian.

I never "pushed" for anything, I was explaining both the system by which persons from that part of the world identify nationally and the futility of ethnicity itself as a concept as there is nothing concrete about one's designation. To confuse matters more, each country has its own way of conducting censa and then publishing results and you are left with a range of details inconsistent with each other. If Bernard's parents came from Bosnia and called themselves Croatian, none of this means that he too would call himself Croat. As I said in my original post here, ethnicity in Bosnia is very much in line with faith but there are cases where non-Muslims (main share of Bosniaks) have declared Bosniak or Bosnian. If Bernard has somewhere declared himself Croatian then that can be used as a source but if he is calling himself plain Australian and simply stating that his parents declare Croatian whilst coming from Bosnia, then we cannot apply Croatian or Bosnian as demonyms. If he is happy to call himself Croat then he is nothing that Marin Čilić and Ivan Ljubičić are not. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 22:16, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Having said all that, Absconded Northerner, I have no real problem with your suggested opening paragraph. As far as I'm concerned, it makes full use of all reasonable sources provided while neither favouring one side or the other - thus finally putting the issue to rest in a mutual manner.

Jas315 (talk) 13:52, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Much written, little said. Again, you are not here to interpret Bernard Tomić's interview, you can't do that, not you, nor anyone else, period. Who authorized you to do that? You can't interpret any whose interview, if that was the case, then why have any interview if an individual will come and interpret them how they fit. As far as Crotian page, it is a Croatian tabloid, and by far it is the worst possible source of the listed above. And yet, none of the available sources has a weight as an interview from australianopen. Provide source where Bernard Tomić himself states his mother Bosnian ancestry, and that is it.--Eversman (talk) 14:27, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

It's not about interpreting it, it's about reading what's actually there. You're doing just as much interpretation by making assumptions about exactly what Tomic meant. Your earlier point your wiki page isn't relevant. I have no reason to doubt anything on your page, but if you became a notable person and somebody tried to use your page as a reliable source for your ancestry, they wouldn't be allowed to. You should also read WP:PRIMARY, which seems to apply in this case. It doesn't exclude sources like that interview, but it does urge caution about them, and states that secondary sources are preferable. Absconded Northerner (talk) 14:46, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

It is not about interpreting, but yet you are constantly trying to do exactly that regarding Bernard Tomić interview. What am I interpreting? I have written above that to my opinion it should state that his parents have a Croatian background, and nothing else. Didn't Bernard Tomić stated himself that "his parents have a Croatian background."? What is wrongly interpreted there? I have read WP:PRIMARY and nothing there states or urge caution against interviews. Plenty of official websites of notable persons are used as a source on their Wiki page, so I don't know what are you talking about when you write if I became a notable person and somebody tried to use my page as a reliable source for my ancestry, they wouldn't be allowed to. That is simply not true.--Eversman (talk) 21:13, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Re-read the policy, and WP:RS. There is no way that a WP user page would be allowed as a reliable source. Jas315 has already explained in detail why an off-the-cuff answer to a different question is unreliable, and you keep ignoring the existence of all the other sources. It's increasingly difficult to assume good faith here, as you seem to be pushing a solidly-nationalistic POV that brooks no compromise. I have suggested a form of words that seems to incorporate the solid evidence from all the sources, while you keep on and on and on and on about one source. Absconded Northerner (talk) 22:22, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

I never said that my Wiki page could be used as a reliable source, it was just an a example to show you that you can't interpret my own words like you fit, or anyones for that matter. Look at my Wiki page as an interview with me, that was my aim to begin with, to show you that you can't use someones(in this case Bernard Tomić's) interview and interpreted like you fit. You just can't. I am pursuing the only source that is actually legit in this case, since that source are Bernard Tomić own words, a by God you should accept them. If he states: My parents have a Croatian background., then that is it. You should state that on his Wiki page. Who are you to question his own statements? I will not address the accusation about nationalistic POV, since it is nothing but slander and your wishful thinking.--Eversman (talk) 23:20, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Eversman, I agree with you in the sense that when it comes to personal information of biographies of living people, Wikipedia should take into account what the subject has said on the issue (for example, the spelling or pronunciation of the person's name). In this case, we should certainly take into account what Tomic has said, which is that his parents have a Croatian background. However, it must be noted that Tomic gave a short reply in that interview and did not go into any specific detail. There are many reliable sources that have stated he is of Bosnian heritage as well. Would something along the lines of "Tomic's parents, John and Ady, left Croatia several years before his birth. Tomic has stated his parents are of Croatian background,[12] while other sources, such as The Australian and The Guardian, have written that Tomic's parents are also of Bosnian heritage.[13][14]" be an acceptable compromise for you? Jenks24 (talk) 04:11, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

It is absolutely astoudning that the current version is based on only person's (Eversman's)extreme view (i.e. repeateldy using the one example how Tomic himself told the media that he is of Croatian backround etc). It is a complete oversimplification of a complex issue; and I believe it has no factual weight. Remember when at US open, the announcer incorrectly stated that Djokovic was Serbian - Djokovic corrected him, but took no offence, and said "it's the same thing really". Tennis players are less concerned about their background than we obviously are. So to hold what the 18 year old Tomic who came to Aus as a three year old says (to Australian media) as the paragon of truth regarding his background is uttelry simplistic and narrow-minded (especially when there are factual references that are very relevant in this example - I've provided one below (tuzlalive.com). It's amazing that he's parents' Bosnian descent is being disputed by some based on such simplistic, uneducated and quite undemocratic reasoning, totally contrary to Wikipedia's ethic. Zeddi30 (talk) 06:13, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Please comment on content, not on the contributors. Do you have an opinion on Absconded Northerner's compromise or my own (both of which do mention the Bosnian heritage)? Cheers, Jenks24 (talk) 06:32, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Jenks24, I appreciate the attempts at compromise. For some reasone unknown to me the father is described as Australian Croatian, and the mother is Bosnian-born (with a link pointing to Croats of Bosnia and Herzegovina). Regardless, let's proceed to use only references provided on the internet as Absonded Northerner suggested (this is unfortunately the larger "evil" of Wikipedia). The issue that is debated here then is the mother's descent/ethnicity. We know that Internet references do state she is Bosnian. Now some are invalidating this point on grounds of "Bosnian" not representing an ethnicity. It doesn't have to. You can be just "Bosnian". Obviously, during the communist era there were many mixed-marriages (Tomics included). The term "Bosnian" is therefore a valid descent, just as "Yugoslav" was during the Yugoslav era - i.e. no one forced you to identify as a Serb, Croat, Muslim etc. I'm "Bosnian" and "Bosnian" only, and do not belong to either of the three "ghettos". So to sum up, the background section should state: "Bosnian mother and Croatian father". ). My previous comment on not using Tomic's referece to his parents stays - i.e. it's a gross oversimplification and bears no factual weight.Zeddi30 (talk) 08:06, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

I have received the notification from Jenks24 to participate in this discussion. After looking all the references, I have to agree that Tomic interview has the greatest significance. So to settle this issue I suggest that is written, born in Sttutgart, Germany to Croatian and Bosnian parents, John and Ady, although Tomic identifies both his parents to be of Croatian background. That is my suggestion.--Bbrezic (talk) 09:25, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

To resolve this problem, I can fully agree with the proposed solution from Jenks24 or Bbrezic. That sounds to me as a only reasonable solution. Best regards, --Eversman (talk) 15:59, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your reasonable approach, Eversman; much appreciated. Jenks24 (talk) 11:50, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

This is my first discussion on Wikipedia and I have to say that I'm shocked and saddened at the standard of debate. Jenks24 and I have each given a detailed opinion on the sources and how they should be reflected in the article, but all we get from the rest of you is "Well I think X so X". I wonder how you survive on this site with such an attitude. Too many people are interested only in a Nationalistic POV and are not even trying to come to a sensible result.

I don't think specifying sources in the text as Jenks24 does works very well. I'm obviously biased, but I think my version is accurate without being pedantic or nationalistic. Absconded Northerner (talk) 00:04, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Absconded Northerner, I agree with your proposal. It is a compromise, but it's very acceptbale one and you solely provide a detailed discussion which others seem to ignore. I have similarily attempted to compromis abovee, while what Eversman and Bbrezic seem to be doing is a kind of a 'compromise without compromise' - it just doesn't work as such. Thanks again for giving by far the most detailed analysis of the references and Wikipedia guidelines, and we should be closing this debate with your proposal. Zeddi30 (talk) 02:23, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

In terms of new evidence, provided by Tifetondu, I must ask that they be considered in connection with this case. Even more I am forced to change my mind, and now I agree that it should stand, born in Sttutgart, Germany to John and Ady, in the family of Croatian origin-background., since Tomic 2 times personally confirmed his family background, even more Reuters reporter calls him a Croat in this new article. Also I would like to ask Absconded Northerner and Zeddi30 to stop with personal attacks on other users, and to start with serious contributions to this debate in terms of new evidence-sources that are appearing daily with his excellent result at Wimbledon. Furthermore, if you think that the resolution of this situation is not possible, call Admins for help.--Bbrezic (talk) 10:46, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Bbrezic, as far as I can tell, the majority of Tifeondu's arguments are claiming the Tomic is not Bosniak (which no-one here is claiming he is). I still think your first proposal was more on the right track as there are literally thousands of sources that say Tomic is of Bosnian and Croatian heritage (eg 248,000 results for a google search of 'Bernard Tomic Bosnian'), which clearly shows that there are a large amount of sources that consider Tomic to be of (partially) Bosnian descent. Would you not agree that it is a mainstream view that should be mentioned in the article? Jenks24 (talk) 11:50, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Please show where I have made a personal attack or withdraw your remark. Absconded Northerner (talk) 11:12, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Maybe I was for a solution that I have suggested above Jenks24, but I was forced to change my opinion after I saw the intransigence of Absconded Northerner and Zeddi30. Also, all sources of more recent date advise to only his Croatian origin, and those who mention his Bosnian heritage are all of older date, 2008-2009-2010. Sources that were not included of recent date, and that are only addresing his Croatian origin, are, http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/more-sport/tennis/2011/06/28/wimbledon-2011-bernard-tomic-becomes-youngest-rfinalist-for-25-years-115875-23232498/ , http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/othersports/tennis/australian-teenager-bernard-tomic-reaches-quarterfinals-at-wimbledon-by-beating-xavier-malisse/2011/06/27/AG7GFKnH_story.html, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-2009276/WIMBLEDON-2011-So-just-Bernard-Tomic.html,. And with Tomic 2 times personally confirming his family background, I have to agree that that has the greatest significance, as I stated above.--Bbrezic (talk) 12:41, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Inducing that someone is nationalistic and that he is not trying to come to a sensible result, is a personal attack by my standards. So NO, I will not withdraw my remark Absconded Northerner. With regards, --Bbrezic (talk) 12:47, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I have never stated that any one person is nationalistic, so your attacks against me are invalid. Absconded Northerner (talk) 12:49, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Seriously, can we just try on focus on the issue and not on other editors? Arguing about stuff like this does not improve the article or the discussion in any way. Bbrezic, I fail to see how Absconded Northerner's and Zeddi30's "intransigence" should be a reason to change your view. If they really are being intransigent, wouldn't it be better for you to be the bigger man and agree to a compromise when they were not willing to? I must disagree with you about the claim that no 2011 sources write of Tomic's Bosnian heritage. Just yesterday, The Australian wrote "Born in Germany to Croatian and Bosnian parents". Also can you please show the second time that Tomic stated his family background was only Croatian? Cheers, Jenks24 (talk) 13:01, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Edit break 1

This is an interesting source, as it's a website dedicated to exactly this issue. It specifically states "Bernard Tomic is an Australian professional tennis player who was born to a Croatian father, Ivica and a Bosnian mother, Adisa." I've never heard of this site before, but it looks pretty good. Absconded Northerner (talk) 13:07, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Interesting, but I don't think it could be considered a reliable source, as it appears to user-generated. Jenks24 (talk) 13:12, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Second time Jenks24, http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/06/30/tennis-wimbledon-tomic-idUKL3E7HT36820110630. In terms of new evidence I can agree with your modified proposition, that I took the liberty to modify, Tomic himself and other sources have stated that his parents are of Croatian background, while other sources, such as The Australian and The Guardian, have written that Tomic's mother is of Bosnian heritage. If not, ask Admins to intervene. Best regards, --Bbrezic (talk) 13:23, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

That's not Tomic talking, it's his father. Absconded Northerner (talk) 13:26, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Agree that it his father, not Bernard, who states "In the blood we are Croatian". That said, I think it is still relevant. I may indeed ask an admin or an experienced user to evaluate what they see the consensus here to be if we can't figure anything out ourselves, but please note that admins opinions in a content dispute carry no more weight than a regular user. Absconded Northerner, what do you think of Bbrezic's proposed wording? Jenks24 (talk) 13:33, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

I noticed that, and I was writing the correction but you were faster then me. This is the second time today that I have lost everything I have wroted due to Edit conflict viz you.--Bbrezic (talk) 13:31, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

If you were edit conflicted, your version of the text will be found in the box at the bottom of the page, so you shouldn't lose anything. It's hardly my fault if you're getting edit conflicts anyway.

I still not a fan of the version of the text comparing the sources - I think to play sources off against each other is a mistake, but if it's the only version certain people will accept, it'll have to do. Absconded Northerner (talk) 13:33, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for being willing to compromise, Absconded Northerner. It may interest you to know that many featured articles use the technique of explaining that sources differ, eg "Source A says this, while Source B says that". Jenks24 (talk) 14:24, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Obviously we have reached the solution, so as a neutral user Jenks24 can start editing Tomic page as discussed. Best regards, --Bbrezic (talk) 16:37, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Just to be clear: the version I'm supporting is Jenks24's. Bbrezic's version isn't very well written. Absconded Northerner (talk) 16:52, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

As we seem to have a consensus here, I will update the article shortly. Jenks24 (talk) 19:55, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Why does nobody seem to use this key reference, where Tomic's first Coach, Neil Guiney refers to Tomic's maternal side descent - She is Bosnian (He and his wife know the family well - long before Tomics were known). Please read the article (it's on the second page) - it answers the dillema. This is a first hand source from a person who knows the family, particularly the mother's side, and not some generic source from the web. No more discussion. (http://www.theage.com.au/news/sport/tennis/first-coach-still-plays-a-key-role-in-tomics-emerging-career/2009/01/22/1232471497977.html).Zeddi30 (talk) 05:27, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

"In the blood WE ARE CROATIAN but WE are feeling 100 percent Australian." (John Tomic, June 2011)

John Tomic Interview:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2011/06/30/tennis-wimbledon-tomic-idUKL3E7HT36820110630

Once again another direct quote, this time by Bernard Tomic's own father, defining the Tomic family as being nothing but of Croatian blood. These are not the words of some unrelated journalist, nor the opinion of some anonymous Wikipedia editor here. Sorry, but you don't identify your parents as having just a "Croatian background" when your mother is supposedly a Bosniak (Bernard Tomic Interview, Australian Open, 20.01.11), nor your family to just be of Croatian blood when your wife is again supposedly a Bosniak.

STOP READING BETWEEN THE LINES TO PRETEND OTHERWISE ALREADY!

Tifetondu (talk) 09:14, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

First of all, when reading that article, the word "family" was implied by the author himself - it was not included in any direct question put forth to his father. To assume that his father was talking about Bernard's family as a whole (rather than say, Bernard's team for example) is just that, an assumption. This is one of the reasons why hearsay in any court of law, always fails.

Second of all, this source is irrelevant as not only is it a secondary source, but it is also from his Croatian father's words, not Bernard's. Bernard is an adult now, and does not need anyone else to speak for him, the same goes for the rest of the members of his family. His father may speak for himself as a father/individual speaking of his own roots - but as far as Bernard is concerned, the only secondary source that should be listed as text in the article (if at all) are those spoken by the person who the article is about - and that person only.

This is the compromise that has been agreed upon by almost all of the parties who have engaged in the discussion, so I urge you to stop vandalising this. If you have a reason to contest it, do so in the discussion and raise your points, but keep it away from the edit summary. Jas315 (talk) 02:03, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

FACT: The majority of "Bosnians" (52%) are NOT "Bosniaks".

Bosnia-Herzegovina demographics (CIA Fact Book):

Bosniaks/Muslims (48%), Serbs (37.1%), Croats (14.3%), others (0.6 %)

source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/bk.html

STOP CLAIMING THAT BOSNIAN = BOSNIAK, WHEN MOST BOSNIANS AREN'T!

Tifetondu (talk) 09:14, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

FALLACY: "Adisa" is a Bosniak first name = Tomic's mother is Bosniak.

Common Bosniak first names do not always prove ethnicity in the former Yugoslavia.

Examples:

"Alisa" Maric (woman Grandmaster in chess) is a Serb.

"Aida" Ljubicic (wife of tennis player Ivan Ljubicic) is a Croat.

"Zlata" Filipovic (the Anne Frank of Sarajevo) is a Bosnian Croat.

"Jasmina" Tesanovic (feminist author) is a Serb.

"Damir" Dokic (father of tennis player Jelena Dokic) is a Serb.

"Zlatan Stipisic" (singer) is a Croat.

Same goes with Croatian and Serbian first names:

"Tomislav" Nikolic (politician) is a Serb.

"Zlatko" Lagumdžija (politician) is a Bosniak.

"Zvonimir Vukic" (footballer) is a Serb.

"Dragan" Cović (politician) is a Bosnian Croat.

Stop making assumptions and uncorroborated claims just on someone's first name...YOUR PERSONAL OPINION PROVES NOTHING !

Tifetondu (talk) 09:22, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

If you actually read the discussion above, nobody - nobody - is claiming that Tomic is a Bosniak. Please stop shouting and contribute sensibly. Absconded Northerner (talk) 09:47, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Those women names are Bosniak (Muslim names) but because they got married to those men means they changed surnames. Isnt that obvious? Beside, if Timic's parents are originally from Bosnia, that means they used to be Bosnians. There is a source that his parents (both parents) are from a town near Tuzla (Husovo) - majority are Catholic croats but all of them are Bosnians. This is what Im trying to get across.

You're clutching at straws, Tife.

Any Muslim-born person, Bosniak or ex-Yugoslav (Serbian or Croatian) will tell you that Adisa is not a Serbian or Croatian name. If you said otherwise, they would laugh at you. The only way for a person to obtain such a name is through marriage. Names in the Balkans are a big deal when identifying a person by his/her religion/cultural heritage, there is no "lee-way" like there is in Australia.

Nevertheless, as pointed out before, Adisa was born Adisa Vatić - Vatić is a Bosniak last name.

Translated:

"while his mother Adisa, born Vatić, from Brčko."

http://sportsport.ba/tenis/tomic-stigao-beckera/59658

The fact that both of her birth names are Bosniak only points to one thing.

However, there are no sources for any of these claims regarding the heritage of all names, no matter how much a person from ex-Yugoslavia would know and recognize (and I guarantee those from ex-Yugoslavia reading this will). Wikipedia simply does not work without primary sources (note: primary, not secondary sources like heresay from his Croatian father).

As far as I'm concerned, as much as I would have preferred Absconded's proposed opening paragraph due to the fact that it favours neither side - the opening paragraph agreed upon by everyone else is fine enough. The issue, for the moment, has been settled with the best possible compromise.

Jas315 (talk) 01:02, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

An important thing to remember is that consensus can change. The current version (by Jenks24, per discussion above) was used because it had everyone's support. If we reach a point where more people are in favour of my version (the only person opposing seems to be Bbrezic), then that can easily become the current version. I just wish Tifetondu would participate properly instead of shouting and unilaterally inserting his/her own version. Absconded Northerner (talk) 01:12, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with the current version. It is totally biased and doesn't provide substantial arguments/references. It draws on Tomic's "My parents have a Croatian background". I have provided a reference above, from a neutral person - Bernard's first Australian coach who knows the mother's side. Why should John Tomic's answer in the media be given so much weight? (Heis a Croat - and we know that Bosnia/Croatia are patriarchal societies - so obviously he will claime "We are Croats", and similarly Bernard will too (under influece from his father - after all he came to Aus as a three-year old, hence his answer is completely irrelevant). But this is precisely the point - A neutral Australian (i.e. not interested in fathers' patriarchal dominance) KNOWS the mother is Bosnian. This in my belief bears more weight that what John or Bernard Tomic say (let alone other generic sources from the web which claim this or that without any substantiation - and were probably picked up from other websites themselves). The articleshould say "Bosnian and Croatian descent", without any further nonesense. Why is it so hard to accept that and instead propose some kind of false compromises without doing so?Zeddi30 (talk) 05:27, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I do agree with Absconded Northerner that consensus can change. To Jas, using one reference to say that Tomic's mother's name is ____ and then using another source to say that _____ is a Bosniak name is synthesising sources and constitutes original research. Please provide a reference that proves your point, not just stating where his mother is born. To Zeddi, there is absolutely no way that Tomic's opinion on the issue is "completely irrelevant". This is a BLP and the subject's opinion on such a clearly divisive issue must be taken into account. That said, thank you for providing the reference from The Age in the above section. I would hope we will be able to work into the article that his maternal grandmother is Bosnian. Perhaps something along the lines of "In an interview, Tomic stated that his parents "have a Croatian background". However, his maternal grandmother is a Bosnian and, as a result, many sources identify Tomic as being of Croatian and Bosnian heritage."? Jenks24 (talk) 07:18, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi again Jenks24, to me that Quote by Bernard is then redundant. We've established there is Bosnian descent, we know there is Croatian descent - both are now established facts. Can't we just agree on "He is of Bosnian and Croatian" descent. Why going in circles then? Why the superflous, redundant bits? To me at least this seems a no-brainer, and I cannot help but feel that some contributors seem to be sabotageing this. Why should then an established FACT that he IS of both Bosnian and Croatian descent demand any more compromise by way of that superflous paragraph?.Zeddi30 (talk) 12:20, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm glad to see that agreement was reached, but I see that some individuals are still not giving up their intentions, especially Bosnian users. I do not understand why those individuals feel so threatened by the statement of Bernard Tomić or his father, where they declare Tomić's family Croatian origin. Do you really think that by hiding that statement you can hide the truth? I have to agree with Jenks24 when he says that Tomic's opinion on the issue is completely relevant and the subject's opinion on such a clearly divisive issue must be taken into account. Any user who governs Wiki for a longer period of time should know this.--Eversman (talk) 11:12, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Eversman, please don't speculate about the intentions or reasoning of other users, as you have done several times, most recently by claiming they feel "threatened". To do so is not CIVIL. Personally, I think the statements are quite relevant, but that their importance is being overstated, as both cases involved somebody giving a simple answer to a different question. As I said above, the current version of the text is good enough, but I'd prefer to see a more neutral and simple wording being used. Absconded Northerner (talk) 11:34, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

OK, I will correct my previous comment and will say that Tomic's statement IS relevant. But how does it change the facts - it doesn't! Personally, I have Croatian (Bosnian Croat) background, I have Bosniak background. I can choose to say "Bosnian", I can choose to say "Croatian" if someone asks - this does not mean I have no "Bosnian Descent" if I say "My parents are of Croatian" descent, or vice versa. Did he ever say "I have no Bosnian descent' - When he does, I'll quit this discussion. Why do we need the extra information? It sounds so amateurish and superflous. As I've said, simplify it along the lines I've proposed above as I do not agree with the current version.Zeddi30 (talk) 14:04, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I have removed the sentence for two reasons: 1. How is this reference relevant? Where is the authors source? Seems to me to be rather generic article. 2. Even if the reference were relevant, I don't see how the sentence is important for the article except to stress on the "Croatian" and diminish the "Bosnian". I will never give in to Eversman's far-right nationalistic propaganda. This is the same cretin who promotes guns, Bush, greed and anti-socialist paranoia. Absonded Norhterner, forgime me for being politically incorrect, but is this the person you wanna compromise with. Yuk! Zeddi30 (talk) 07:50, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

I am reporting this shameful and offensive line of text. You should be a shame of yourself, I have never seen such low level of communication. You don't discuss by attacking other users personal views. Shame on you.--Bbrezic (talk) 17:17, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

The only insult here is discussing this article (or anything) with Tudjmanoid fascist lowlives like you and E. I've stated above that I didn't agree with "consensus" for the reasons I've given. The article is obviously one-sided and reads like shit. Zeddi30 (talk) 15:09, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Latest edits

I'm not going to start an edit war, even one where consensus has recently been established, so I've initiated this discussion on AN/I. Absconded Northerner (talk) 01:49, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Origins

This is quite simple: the source says Croatia, so the article should say Croatia. This isn't an article about the history of the Balkans, nor is it the place for personal opinions and WP:SYNTH. Unless you can find a source that mentions Yugoslavia, leave it saying Croatia. Absconded Northerner (talk) 16:13, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Disagree. Sources are important, but so is historical accuracy. For instances, I found a surce accientaly confusing ethnic Roma with Romanian, so should we ignore it? He is Romanian because source says it that way! ...even if he never saw Romania in hs life... No. Specially when the source is not specialised in the issue in question, in this case, geography or history. We can find innumerous sources that would accurately indicate that this link Croatia didn´t existed as such at time we are talking. It is nearly as silly as saying that Hugo Sánchez is from the Azteca Empire. It is wrong and I can´t possibly see your point in wanting to have this in the article. FkpCascais (talk) 18:05, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

"We can find innumerous sources" - please do so then. Absconded Northerner (talk) 18:26, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Do you really want sources to say that Croatia as such exists only since 1991? Are you actually challenging that fact? Please inform yourself or stop defending an invalid point. FkpCascais (talk) 19:10, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I beleave a deadhorse would apply well to your case. It is useless for you yo keep on insisting on using a country name for a period when it didn´t existed as such. It can only be used as irony in an encyclopedia, something like "The Roman Emperor Berlusconi..." and as much sources that could claim something like this, it would allways be wrong to use it seriously. I don´t possibly see any further arguments for it, beside an unprecise source... FkpCascais (talk) 19:30, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

My point is that this isn't an article about history: it's an article about a person. Historical detail doesn't belong on an article unless it's important to it. In this case, it isn't. Unless you're one of the increasing number of Balkan nationalists trying to ruin the English Language Wiki? Absconded Northerner (talk) 20:28, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, opposing for the use of a wrong country name in a wrong context must make me a nationalist :)

The best way to avoid nationalist disputes is exactly to be precise about political and geographical units. Using a wrong country in wrong time period can possibly lead us tomorow of talking about the Napoleonic invasion of NDH, or Clinton´s bombing campaign of the Serbian Empire... FkpCascais (talk) 22:17, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

OK, I just now noteced what happend during my abscence and I will like to leave two notes:

• Evlekis: I followed some of the discussions as I noteced the issue appeared at ANI, so bear in mind that I was aware of the dispute here. You are such a fine editor and I supose things here escalated too much and tooquickly, just remind: comment on content, not on contributor, specially because it was totaly unecessary in this case, as I was aware of the issues. Resumingly, I am very glad things ended up well, and I beleave a sort of missunderstanding is what we are facing here, as all precipitated reverting between the two of you made you both skip a simple discussion on why of each others edits, something I´ll somehow try just next.
• Absconded Northerner: I don´t intend in any way to monopolise this thread, and after the already posted explanations you did one of the best things for this kind of situations, and one that I also appreciate and often do, which is to invite other editors to express their view. However in between all these exchanges I beleave a simplier explanation about the background of the origin of such edits is missing. As you mentioned, nationalism is a common unfortunate tendency that appears often whenever the subject is former Yugoslavia. However, in order to block it, there is an unofficial agreement between established editors from the region to use precise time existing political units. It all started when editors with nationalist tendencies started replacing Yugoslavia with the new countries thus making the phalse impression as the new countries allways existed and ignoring the Yugoslav period. This kind of edits are mostly found in biographies in infoboxes, where people started replacing Country of birth: Yugoslavia by Country of birth Bosnia, Croatia, Serbia, etc., and others in article body, similar to the one we have in this case here. The problem is that that is recentism and inacurate, so we agreed to not ignore Yugoslavia and not replace it with the new countries where it shouldn´t. That is the reason why Evlekis made that edit and why I support him. As much sources you can find being written in a recentist way, the fact is that before 1992 the country was Yugoslavia, and replacing it by the new countries would be like phalsifiying history. In this case it is said that Bernard Tomic parents left the country several years before Bernard´s birth, so if he was born in 1992, several years would certainly be during Yugoslav period. That is why simplifiying it to Croatia would be nationalist recentism, as it is inacurate and tendentious. Specially if you want to link it, thus never possibly being right to link it to Croatia that was created as such in 1992, meaning several years later from what we are talking about. So, we can eventually replace it by left their home country, or correct it to the country existing back then, otherwise you are pushing for an error to be edited. If we allow it here, tomorow we´ll have a buch of nationalist talking about birthplaces being Kosovo´s, Croatia´s, Serbia´s and others, in a time period in which they didn´t existed as such. I equaly stand for this in all cases, not just Croatia or any particular one, thus you can´t possibly accuse me of being nationalist. I apologise if I abused with silly exemples in the earlier posts, but you simply can´t say a person left a place when the place didn´t existed as such in the time you´re refering to. I allways support using sources, however if they mention some peripherical issue wrong, it is right to correct it, as we don´t limit ourselfs to just copy/paste the sources. That is the base of the problem here and I hope this explanation was usefull. FkpCascais (talk) 01:47, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

You haven't addressed my WP:SYNTH concern at all. While it's interesting that you claim there's an unofficial, unwritten policy being adhered to by unnamed editors, it's difficult to see this as anything other than personal opinion. Absconded Northerner (talk) 09:07, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but most important is the historical factual accuracy, why you ignore that part? OK, enough of this. I was kind and I explained to you the reasons behind. Any edit that goes in the direction of using non-existing countries and places in inadequate time periods will be promptly reverted. Any insistency on this will be considered disruption. You seem to be loosing time here to try to illustrate a point, or you are being purpously disruptive, either way, it is up to you. Good editing. FkpCascais (talk) 11:48, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I didn't ignore that; I consider it irrelevant. Please stop making personal attacks. Absconded Northerner (talk) 11:50, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, you considering it irrelevant is not a WP matter, but your own. However, you made an interesting point, where did I made a personal attack? Should I remind you accusing me of being a nationalist without any evidence or even reason for? Either you present evidence for those claims or otherwise I will kindly ask you to remove such statements.FkpCascais (talk) 17:21, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Calling people purposely disruptive (or purpously, as you spelled it) is an attack. I didn't accuse you of being a nationalist either, merely that you seem to be pushing a nationalist POV. In other words, my comments weren't ad hominem (unlike yours) but were addressed to your edits. That is entirely acceptable and in line with policy. Read WP:NPA if you need further advice on this matter.

This is moot now anyway. A new source has been added to the article so everything is in order. Absconded Northerner (talk) 18:06, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

This ("Unless you're one of the increasing number of Balkan nationalists trying to ruin the English Language Wiki?") is what you said, and it is ad hominem. Do you know what ad hominem means? FkpCascais (talk) 09:02, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes I do, and no it's not. I think you need to look the term up yourself, along with a few examples. Please stop wasting my time. Absconded Northerner (talk) 09:10, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Recomending policies (which btw I posted in our discussion first) is allway good, but recomending a policy in a way you did to a veteran editor is hardly civil and very provoking. Btw, the sentence is ad hominem, but neverless, you should absorve the lessons and perhaps change a bit your attitude. I failed as well, as I also failed in a patience test with you, but your entire tone just seems to be asking for a dispute, which is very unhealthy way to be on WP. FkpCascais (talk) 09:43, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Veteran editors shouldn't need policies pointing out to them, but as you seemed to have problems understanding them, I thought it necessary. You obviously forgot about WP:SYNTH and WP:NPA for instance. I'm glad to have been able to help you understand policy more clearly. Absconded Northerner (talk) 10:07, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Seems to me that synth wasn´t enough for me to make you understand some issues, however I see now even that wasn´t enough. Well, some editors simply ignore reality and keep on playing their music even after their boat was under watter already. Keep on editing from the 2011 English Empire. ;) FkpCascais (talk) 23:51, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Parental homeland

A source has now been added to support the claim that his parents originated from Yugoslavia. For everyone's information, it is stated on the fourth paragraph. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 12:18, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. Absconded Northerner (talk) 12:20, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for filling the relevant parts. I was a bit short for time earlier. Evlekis (Евлекис) (argue) 15:16, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Bernard Tomic's real(?) age

On the Gold Coast it is a common rumour that Bernard Tomic is actually 2 years older than he claims (21 years old - not 19). A piece of the supporting evidence for this is the car which he recieved on his birthday - the liscence plate stating BTO21 (Benard Tomic 21). http://www.goldcoast.com.au/images/uploadedfiles/editorial/pictures/2012/01/26/TOMIC-HOLES-UP-AT-HOME.jpg

There aren't any trusted sources (news stories/quotes from family etc.) for this as of yet. But as Tomic's fame continues to grow it will likely pop up more often. Am interested if anyone else has more information on the subject. Thanks. Pierricbross (talk) 08:00, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

File:Tomicdaviscup.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Tomicdaviscup.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion for the following reason: All Wikipedia files with unknown copyright status What should I do? Don't panic; you should have time to contest the deletion (although please review deletion guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page. If the image is non-free then you may need to provide a fair use rationale If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale, then it cannot be uploaded or used. If the image has already been deleted you may want to try Deletion Review To take part in any discussion, or to review a more detailed deletion rationale please visit the relevant image page (File:Tomicdaviscup.jpg) This is Bot placed notification, another user has nominated/tagged the image --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 01:05, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Something missing, including a source

Under "Junior career" we have "...he qualified for the Sunsmart 18 and Under Canterbury Championships in New Zealand". Under what? The source is dead. HiLo48 (talk) 06:59, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Name Pronunciation

I've never heard his name said as it is indicated with the IPA. Instead of the o corresponding to the vowel in fraud, I've head it correspond to the vowel in bomb. The vowel /ɒ/ not /ɔ:/ Hollth (talk) 03:18, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

@Mr KEBAB: LoveVanPersie (talk) 16:14, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

@Hollth and LoveVanPersie: Someone has already fixed it. Mr KEBAB (talk) 18:23, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

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The pronunciation of Tomić

@Mr KEBAB: Is it Tȍmić (1, 2) or Tómić (2)? LoveVanPersie (talk) 17:58, 30 December 2017 (UTC)