Talk:Assassination of John F. Kennedy
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JFK Assassination Files DisclosureEdit
The conspiracy theory section is not an appropriate place to mention the October 26th, 2017 release of new information. The entire article needs to be rewritten in light of the new facts present. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 05:26, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not aware of any new fact disclosed which would change any of the conclusions presented on this page. Perhaps you could be more specific? Canada Jack (talk) 14:03, 7 November 2017 (UTC)
Paragraph 4, sentence 2 states "The Committee was not able to identify any individuals or groups involved with the possible conspiracy." This sentence appears to be false, as the HSCA specifically identified Carlos Marcello and Santos Trafficante as having the means, motive, and opportunity to assassinate JFK, stating "The committee found that Trafficante, like Marcello, had the motive, means, and opportunity to assassinate President Kennedy." (Source:) These HSCA findings were supported by alleged confessions from Marcello in 1985 to an FBI informant and Trafficante in 1987 to his attorney, Frank Ragano. (Sources:  )
It seems that paragraph 4, sentence 2 should be updated to "The Committee found that Carlos Marcello and Santos Trafficante had the means, motive, and opportunity to assassinate president Kennedy." (Source:) Nopoliticsatthetable (talk) 06:19, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
- Saying someone had motive means and opportunity to carry out the assassination is an entirely different thing than saying these people were involved in the actual assassination. Any competent judge would say "okay, Carlos wanted him dead, and had the means to carry it out. But where is the evidence that he actually had him killed?" Besides, the committee did leave the door open for the possibility that individuals in some of the organizations many have claimed may have had a role.
- The full HSCA summary spells this out: Based on the evidence available to it, the committee could not preclude the possibility that individual members of anti-Castro Cuban groups or the national syndicate of organized crime were involved in the assassination. There was insufficient evidence, however, to support a finding that any individual members were involved. The ramifications of a conspiracy involving such individuals would be significant, although of perhaps less import than would be the case if a group itself, the national syndicate, for example had been involved. Canada Jack (talk) 18:52, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for the response Canada Jack. I think we agree that the 1979 HSCA found insufficient evidence, at the time, to support a finding that any individual member was involved in a conspiracy to assassinate JFK. But paragraph 4, sentence 2 specifically states "The Committee was not able to identify any individuals or groups involved with the possible conspiracy." The HSCA did identify individuals such as Marcello and Trafficante that were involved in the "possible conspiracy", but did not have enough evidence at the time to find that they were involved in an actual "conspiracy" to assassinate JFK. That is why the sentence appears to be misleading/incorrect.
- In response to your question "Any competent judge would say "okay, Carlos wanted him dead, and had the means to carry it out. But where is the evidence that he actually had him killed?". As stated earlier, these HSCA findings were supported by alleged confessions from Marcello in 1985 to an FBI informant and Trafficante in 1987 to his attorney, Frank Ragano.
- Sources list which were wrapped in ref tags earlier:
https://apnews.com/80182423bc7a738bde2714580b1ba911 https://www.publishersweekly.com/978-0-684-19568-1 https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/c/ce/Pict_legacyofsecrecy_marcelloconfession.jpg http://jackvanlaningham.com/bio.html
- Note - The 1985 Marcello confession FBI report image is hosted at https://www.maryferrell.org/wiki/images/c/ce/Pict_legacyofsecrecy_marcelloconfession.jpg given that the National Archives does not yet have an online link for this operation CAMTEX FBI report. According to Legacy of Secrecy co-author Lamar Waldron, the document can be found in person at the National Archives as record DL 283A-1035-Sub L. Jack Vanlaningham confirmed that he was the undercover FBI informant that recorded Marcello's confession and many other conversations with Marcello over a 2 year period in Texarcana prison, sometimes sharing a prison cell with him.
- The problem here is you are trying to characterize the HSCA conclusions in a way they don't characterize it. The line at issue says: "The Committee was not able to identify any individuals or groups involved with the possible conspiracy." So is that a fair characterization of what the committee said? They said: "The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that President John F. Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy. The committee is unable to identify the other gunman or the extent of the conspiracy." And... "The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that anti-Castro Cuban groups, as groups, were not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.... The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the national syndicate of organized crime, as a group, was not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved."
- What you are doing is trying to elevate the part about "means, motive and opportunity" in regards to Trafacante etc to something that negates the very conclusions of the report. They quite clearly say that "on the basis of the evidence available to it, that anti-Castro Cuban groups, as groups, were not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.... and "The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the national syndicate of organized crime, as a group, was not involved in the assassination of President Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved."
- IOW, this is a POV assertion - YOU are claiming they have "identified" possible players, despite the fact the conclusions of the report state the precise opposite while saying evidence doesn't preclude the involvements of certain individuals. If this was not so, then why not mention in the conclusions that the committee had identified players who were possibly involved? Because, as the committee stated, they lacked the evidence and "means, motive and opportunity" is not evidence of anything.
- As well, here is what the HSCA actually said: "(6) Carlos Marcello.--The committee found that Marcello had the motive, means and opportunity to have President John F. Kennedy assassinated, (263) though it was unable to establish direct evidence of Marcello's complicity." and... "The committee found, in the context of its duty to be cautious in its evaluation of the evidence, that it is unlikely that Trafficante plotted to kill the President, although it could not rule out the possibility of such participation on the basis of available evidence."
- "As stated earlier, these HSCA findings were supported by alleged confessions from Marcello in 1985 to an FBI informant..." And therein lies your error. The original quote characterizes the conclusions of the HSCA, while you are citing a confession made years after the report which is, obviously, not part of the report. The relevant question is: Does the line fairly represent the conclusions of the HSCA? I have shown it does, this despite what years later may have been said. Canada Jack (talk) 20:54, 6 January 2019 (UTC)
- This wikipedia article claims to be about the "Assassination of John F Kennedy" and doesn't mention Carlos Marcello or Santos Trafficante a single time, even in the expanded section on the HSCA. It definitely doesn't mention their alleged confessions in 1985 and 1987. The article isn't only about the HSCA conclusions, and leaves out these later confessions that support some of what the HSCA found in 1979 regarding Marcello and Trafficante's potential involvement (Also, I never asserted the 1985 and 1987 confessions were part of the 1979 HSCA report, only that it's findings were later supported by these confessions).
- You stated "The relevant question is: Does the line fairly represent the conclusions of the HSCA? I have shown it does, this despite what years later may have been said."
- This is incorrect. The relevant question is "Does this article truthfully describe what is publicly known about the assassination of JFK?" The answer is no. Even if the question were "Does the line fairly represent the conclusions of the HSCA?", the answer would still be no, as it leaves out critical information from the HSCA's own report and related updates that weaken the validity of the Warren Commission report.
- The next question is who has the ability to correct a locked down article such as this one with misleading/incorrect information in it?
"The relevant question is 'Does this article truthfully describe what is publicly known about the assassination of JFK?' The answer is no." Ah, so I've shown how you were incorrect by posting the relevant omissions you made from the HSCA report and now you move the goalposts. But in terms of what is "publicly known" about the assassination, we on this page simply go by the conclusions of the two major investigations on the assassination, with reference to the fact that claims of conspiracy have been around since nearly day one. It is not the function of this page to insert all that is "publicly known" about the assassination as in so doing the page would have to be 10 times longer.
One huge aspect not even touched on is how Oswald was tied to the crime, besides the rifle. By your logic, it is more important to include this stuff about the mafia guys then to spell out the case against Oswald. Huh? In the end, the page is more of a narrative than a breakdown of the various theories, so a) the event is described; b) the immediate aftermath and charging of Oswald and his subsequent murder; c) the various investigations and their conclusions.
"Even if the question were "Does the line fairly represent the conclusions of the HSCA?", the answer would still be no, as it leaves out critical information from the HSCA's own report and related updates that weaken the validity of the Warren Commission report."
I will post what the report said about Carlos Marcello or Santos Trafficante again, as you obviously are being fed things without actually reading the report: "(6) Carlos Marcello.--The committee found that Marcello had the motive, means and opportunity to have President John F. Kennedy assassinated, (263) though it was unable to establish direct evidence of Marcello's complicity." and "The committee found, in the context of its duty to be cautious in its evaluation of the evidence, that it is unlikely that Trafficante plotted to kill the President, although it could not rule out the possibility of such participation on the basis of available evidence."
Maybe I should highlight the conclusion again on Trafficante: "The committee found... that it is unlikely that Trafficante plotted to kill the President."
"The next question is who has the ability to correct a locked down article such as this one with misleading/incorrect information in it?" Who is being misleading? You made it sound like the HSCA basically accused the two of being involved when in fact they did not, just that it couldn't be ruled out, a massive difference.
But, again, the page functions more as a narrative on the assassination, its aftermath and the various investigations' conclusions, with links to expanded pages. There is a TON of information on this very subject, the role of the mafia/members, describing Blakely's conclusions behind Marcello's involvement. Even if we were to follow your idea and start listing those other players who may have been involved... well Bugliosi notes that by 2007, 82 individuals have been identified as having fired shots at the president. Further, as any student of the assassination would tell you, while the mob was seen as the perpetrator by many researchers in the 1970s and the 1980s (certainly by many on the HSCA), the shift now has been towards rouge elements of government agencies, LBJ, and the military-industrial complex. Canada Jack (talk) 02:06, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
- Since you start almost every post falsely claiming that you've proven me incorrect or accusing me of moving goalposts, I'm going to stop responding to that type of argument. But for the record, you are the one who has moved the goalpost and are incorrect (See how easy that is to say in argument, declaring yourself correct means nothing.). You asked for supporting evidence which later supported the HSCA's prior suspicions about Marcello and Trafficante, and I provided it with sources. Now you want to limit the article to what the Warren Commission and HSCA found, and only include the information that supports the Warren Commission narrative? If you want to accurately cite the HSCA, the sentence should read "The Committee was not able to identify any individuals or groups involved with the possible conspiracy, but found that Marcello and Trafficante had the means, motive, and opportunity to assassinate president Kennedy. The HSCA noted that they believed it unlikely that Trafficante plotted to kill the President" It seems you are not open to the possibility that the article needs to be updated. Therefore, we should involve other moderators and reach some kind of consensus on the issue instead of essentially debating the meaning of the word "is" and then declaring yourself correct at the end of each post. Nopoliticsatthetable (talk) 04:34, 7 January 2019 (UTC)
- Well, I did show you were incorrect. Not only did you misleadingly omit pertinent material about the two from the HSCA report ("The committee found... that it is unlikely that Trafficante plotted to kill the President") but you are attempting to add to a page which is basically a narrative of the assassination nonsense allegations as if they were the gospel truth. Again, on a page which barely even discusses why Oswald was seen as complicit why do the allegations about these two - and not the many dozens of others who were accused - rise to the level of inclusion not only onto the main page but into the lede itself? What makes these claims special above the many others? This logic is besides the obvious wikipedia requirement of a reliable source. And citing an author or ex-lawyer in a newspaper doesn't count as a "reliable source."
- As for the claims themselves, I'm pretty amazed you are buying into b.s. that has been discredited even within the conspiracy crowd for decades. With Marcello's, one truly has to wonder how this supposed jailhouse confession would be made to someone who was apparently a complete stranger when for months in 1979 and 1980 he was under constant surveillance and even when the HSCA report was released (in 1979) he said nothing that indicated any involvement, even while he complained about RFK who "threw me out to the dogs." So, he'd lie to his close associates for months on end while under surveillance but spill his guts to someone he just met in a jailhouse yard? If you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for you. And, may I note, Jack Van Laningham seems even less credible given the fact that the "evidence" in regards to Hoffa/JFK he secured from Marcello did not result in any charges or followup. Surely, the HSCA would have a field day with this guy's evidence. Did they? Need I say more? Indeed, if you ignore the obvious typos and factual errors on the guy's page ("In 1960, Attorney General, Bobby Kennedy came down hard on the Mob..." for example) his attempt to paint who at the time was perhaps the smallest (literally and organizationally) mob bosses in the U.S. as the guy who ruled the south and Cuba, then you have to ask: Is this guy trying to sell a screenplay? Viola! Leonardo de Caprio stars as Jack!
- Ragano. So, he claims he relayed a message from Hoffa - who was under constant FBI surveillance at the time - to Marcello and Trafficante whom (at least in Trafficante's case) he had not even met a request to kill the president. Just a second - if they carried out the assassination as claimed, Ragano's own actions constitute involvement in conspiracy! He was exposing himself to a potential murder charge! (There's no statute of limitations for murder.) Further, don't the mob have that code of honour - surely if he spilled the beans on something as big as this, he'd be a dead man? (He died in his sleep six years after these claims were published at the age of 75.) Of course, Ragano would have nothing to worry about if his story was complete fiction, which it obviously was. Doesn't seem that logic and common sense operate much in conspiracy land. Even Anthony Summers, one of the leading pro-conspiracy authors, thinks he's full of it, and investigated the "deathbed confession" claim. He found that Trafficante wasn't where he claimed he was (he was in North Miami Beach, not Tampa as claimed, not been there for months); none of the family saw Ragano when he claimed he saw them when he picked Traficante up from the house, which couldn't have happened, as already mentioned, as he hadn't set foot in it for months; that the three others he said who could corroborate the claim he has refused to identify. Gee, was this guy trying to sell a book, perhaps? Yup!
- So, in the end your request to add text about Marcello/Trafficante fails to gain muster for three basic problems with it. This isn't "moving the goalposts" as you accused me of doing - it is pointing out you have multiple goalposts here and you fail at each one: 1) The page offers an overview and narrative of the assassination, discussing the conclusions of the main investigations with links to other articles such as one that describes conspiracies. It does NOT discuss the numerous claims and counter-claims over who "actually" ordered/carried out the assassination, other than a brief listing within the "conspiracy theories" section, so this sort of detail is beyond the scope of the page, let alone worthy of being included in the lede; 2) putting aside that fundamental issue, what you sought to insert was factually incorrect and misleading. Beyond the obvious point that the HSCA saying someone has "means motive and opportunity" is pretty meaningless in any legal sense (the same could be said for perhaps 100s of government spy and military agents who had some personal beef with the president, let alone a near-infinite number of foreign players), the full HSCA text indicates the HSCA felt they didn't do it. And this is from the pro-conspiracy HSCA who many accused of zeroing in on the mob in the first place; 3) even putting that aside, the claims themselves do not hold water. Sources for these claims are either not identified or are from people who stand to gain from their sensational claims, Ragano was caught lying about basic facts surrounding the supposed Trafficante "death bed" confession, and refused to supply the names of the three who could corroborate, while all surveillance and other evidence gathered by agencies found nothing which linked these two to the crime, as the HSCA found in 1979 and which the ARRB also found - after investigating Ragano's claims - in 1998 (he had claimed, for example, to have made contemporaneous notes of his meetings. He was subpoenaed for them but the notes he produced he admitted he may have written for the book).Canada Jack (talk) 03:43, 8 January 2019 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 18 November 2018Edit
|This edit request has been answered. Set the |
"John F. Kennedy"
<a href="/wiki/John_F._Kennedy" title="John F. Kennedy">John F. Kennedy</a>
CIA Withholding of JFK Assassination Related InformationEdit
|Copy/paste from primary source by a series of sockpuppets|
|The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.|
In a declassified September 2013 article published in the CIA's "Studies in Intelligence" by CIA Chief Historian and author of "John McCone as Director of Central Intelligence, 1961-1965", David Robarge describes former CIA Director John McCone as having taken part in a "benign cover-up".
"McCone did have a place in a "benign cover-up," or what also has been termed "a process designed more to control information than to elicit and expose it" The protective response by McCone and other US government officials was inherent in the conflict between the Warren Commission's stated purpose-ascertaining the facts of the assassination---and implied in its mission defending the nation's security by dispelling unfounded rumors that could lead to destructive international conflict."
"The DCI was complicit in keeping incendiary and diversionary issues off the commission's agenda and focusing it on what the Agency believed at the time was the 'best truth': that Lee Harvey Oswald, for as yet undetermined motives, had acted alone in killing John Kennedy."
"Under McCone's and Helms's direction, CIA supported the Warren Commission in a way that may best be described as passive. reactive. and selective...CIA produced information only in response to commission requests-most of which concerned the Soviet Union or Oswald's activities while he was outside the United States--and did not volunteer material even if potentially relevant-for example, about Agency plans to assassinate Castro. Helms told the House of Representatives' Select Committee on Assassinations in 1978 that be "was instructed to reply 'to inquiries from the Warren Commission for information from the Agency. I was not asked to initiate any particular thing."
"When queried, "[I]n other words. if you weren't asked for it you didn't give it?," Helms replied, "That's right".
"Examining the assassination in a different political climate, the Senate's Church Committee concluded in 1976 that the Agency's inquiry was "deficient" in examining Oswald's contacts with pro-Castro and anti-Castro groups before the assassination, and that senior CIA officials "should have realized that the Agency's Cuban operations "needed to be considered" by the commission. In 1979, the House assassinations committee levied a similar criticism: "The CIA acted in an exemplary manner in dealing with the Warren Commission regarding its narrow requests for information. In another area, that of Cuban involvement and operations, the CIA's actions might well be described as "reluctant"."
"Moreover, the DCI shared the administration's interest in avoiding disclosures about covert. actions that would circumstantially implicate CIA in conspiracy theories, and possibly lead to calls for a tough US response against the perpetrators of the assassination. If the commission did not know to ask about covert operations against Cuba, he was not going to give them any suggestions about where to look."
"In prison in Cuba, Wilson says he met an American gangster-gambler named Santos who could not return to the U.S.A. ...Instead he preferred to live in relative luxury in a Cuban prison. While Santos was in prison, Wilson says, Santos was visited frequently by an American gangster type named Ruby. (65) Several days after the CIA had received the information, the Agency noted that there were reports that Wilson-Hudson was a "psychopath" and unreliable. The Agency did not conduct an investigation of the information, and the Warren Commission was apparently not informed of the cablegram. The former staff counsel who directed the Commission's somewhat limited investigation of organized crime told the committee that since the Commission was never told of the CIA's use of the Mafia to try to assassinate Castro from 1960 to 1963, he was not familiar with the name Santos Trafficante in 1964. (66)"
"Finally, the committee developed corroborating evidence that Ruby may have met with Trafficante at Trescornia prison in Cuba during one of his visits to Havana in 1959, as the CIA had learned but had discounted in 1964. (310) While the committee was not able to determine the purpose of the meeting, there was considerable evidence that it did take place.(311)"
"McWillie testified before the committee that he had visited another detainee at Trescornia during that period, and he recalled possibly seeing Trafficante there... McWillie further testified it was during that period that Ruby visited him in Havana for about a week, and that Ruby tagged along with him during much of his stay. (74)"
Photograph of assassination site needs a scaleEdit
The Section "Shooting in Dealy Plaza" contains a photograph of Elm Street and the Texas School Book Depository. The photo also contains an arrow that points to the exact spot in the road where President Kennedy was struck by the bullets. One of the first rules of photography is to have a scale in the photograph. The photo gives the appearance that Dallas is a ghost town. There should be at least one person and one vehicle in the picture to provide a scale. If I lived in the Dallas area, I would take a better picture—with signs of human activity—of the assassination site, delete the existing picture, and upload the new photograph.Anthony22 (talk) 21:37, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that a scale is really needed. We see the multiple stories in the several buildings so we get an idea of the sizes involved, plus the photo above shows the TSBD and cars for scale anyway. That being said, I don't think the photo adequately shows Dealy Plaza, scale or not. Something more like the photo near the top from the Warren Report, an aerial shot, would be much better in showing the layout of the crime scene. Canada Jack (talk) 17:15, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Mistaken report of second fatality at Dealey PlazaEdit
I was just watching archival footage of Walter Cronkite's initial reports of the assassination, and just a few minutes before reporting the official confirmation of Kennedy's death, he reported that a secret service agent had also been killed. I wonder if this should be mentioned. I'm reminded of the 9/11 coverage that included erroneous reports of a car bomb exploding outside the Capitol. I wonder if it's also possible the "secret service" agent mentioned could have been an erroneous reference to Officer Tippit. Cronkite, though, reports the supposedly killed agent was shot during the assassination itself. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 22:29, 7 April 2019 (UTC)
- I do not think that this needs to me mentioned. Broadcast news operations regularly make major mistakes in the immediate aftermath of shocking events. After the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan in 1981, several networks reported that Reagan was not hit by a bullet (he was) and that Jim Brady was dead (he wasn't). Here is coverage in the Smithsonian magazine. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 22:51, 7 April 2019 (UTC)