Talk:Adele Astaire

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Adele Astaire/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Tim riley (talk · contribs) 16:39, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Starting first read-through. More soon. Tim riley talk 16:39, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Initial comment

After a first quick read-through for spelling etc, I think we need to be clear which variety of English the article is meant to be in: it currently mixes AmE and BrE, e.g. we have "colourful" and "colorful", "humor" and "favourite" etc. You should consistently adopt one or the other throughout. (One could make a case for BrE – Lady Charles and all that – but as Adele was American by birth, AmE seems the more natural choice, perhaps. Happy to help out on this if needed.) – Tim riley talk 17:02, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

Hi Tim riley -- thanks for catching that! I grew up in Canada, and Canadian English is an odd mixture of British/American English, so I sometimes don't notice that I've switched spelling styles. Since Astaire was American, I agree American English makes more sense here. I've changed the words you pointed out. If there are any other spelling inconsistencies, I may need your help to spot them, so please feel free to jump in. Alanna the Brave (talk) 00:44, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

The Guy Bolton and PGW quote is, rightly, left in BrE, and I think you've mopped up all the BrE spellings in the text, except for "the pretence of nonchalance", which is in quotes, and should remain in BrE if that is how it appears in the source. I always think phrases in quotes like this look a bit lost if they are not given in context, e.g., in this case, his "pretence of nonchalance", in Xxxx Yxxxxx's phrase or in what Xxxx Yxxxx calls his "prentence of nonchalance". If, as I assume from the citation the phrase is Peter Levinson's, it would be well to attribute it to him in your sentence. (I must emphasise that this – like most of my comments to come, I should think – is only a suggestion: if you disagree with it it won't affect my decision on promoting the article.) Tim riley talk 16:12, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Yes -- both those quotes are replicated in original spelling. I see what you're saying about attribution, but I think I'm inclined to leave the "pretence of nonchalance" quote unattributed. I haven't mentioned any other biographers by name in the article, and I think it would look out of place to suddenly bring Levinson in here, particularly when it's such a short quote (and not referring to Adele Astaire, the article's subject, either). Alanna the Brave (talk) 03:03, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Sources

Tidying up loose ends before I concentrate on the prose of the article, I offer a few comments on the sources cited at the end of the article:

• There is no requirement to give the location of publishers, but I think you should do it for all or for none.

Fixed -- I've added the location to all sources. Alanna the Brave (talk) 01:44, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• Whatever the formatting of the Laukaitis title in the original we don't do all caps in Wikipedia: it should be in upper and lower case.

Done. Alanna the Brave (talk) 01:44, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• The subtitle of the Levinson book is in title case on the title page of the book "...Fine Art of Pastiche...", and should be here, too, rather than in lower case.

Done. Alanna the Brave (talk) 01:44, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• There is a key word missing from the Rust and Debus title.

Whoops! Fixed. Alanna the Brave (talk) 01:44, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• I can't see any logic for having the "Further reading" titles laid out differently from the main sources, above.

Fixed, although I'm not totally sure how to format the 'Astaire Papers' source in Harvard ref style. Suggestions are welcome. Alanna the Brave (talk) 01:44, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm the wrong person to ask about Harvard formatting. It's too hard for me, and I stick to my early Bronze-age manual citation formatting. The listing looks fine to me. Tim riley talk 11:35, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• The meaning of "dtv hardcover" eludes me.

I've removed that source from the list. It was leftover from previous versions of the article, but I can't read German to check out the source myself, and I'm not sure how useful a German source will be to most readers on English Wikipedia, anyway. Alanna the Brave (talk) 01:44, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

More anon. Tim riley talk 16:35, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Comments on the text

• Lead
  • "The siblings brought several of their more popular shows overseas to Britain's West End" – "brought" seems an odd word: one might expect "took"; and I don't think it needs saying that Britain and the West End are overseas from the USA.

Fixed. Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:11, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• Early life and vaudeville (1896—1917)
  • En-dash, not em-dash in the date range, please (MoS), here and later.

Fixed, here and throughout all section headings. Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:11, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• • Not sure why the single quotes round the name Astaire in the last sentence of the second paragraph. Likewise 'I Really Can't Make My Feet Behave', later.

Fixed. I checked the Manual of Style, and I've replaced the single quotes with double quotes for all song titles mentioned. Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:11, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• • "Metropolitan Opera" – worth a blue link, perhaps.

Done! Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:11, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• Broadway career (1917—1932)
  • "back cover of Variety" – italics and a blue link wanted.

Done. Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:11, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• • "In the fall of 1919" – the Manual of Style bids us avoid using seasons to date events, as fall in the US (and autumn in Europe) is spring in the southern hemisphere. A month would be safer.

Interesting point -- I never thought of that. I've edited the line. Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:11, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Still one "fall" left, in the sentence about "The Love Letter". Tim riley talk 11:35, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Y Fixed! Alanna the Brave (talk) 16:57, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• • "the Shaftesbury Theatre" – you've taught me something here. I didn't know about this Shaftesbury Theatre. I walked past its site only two days ago, and am delighted to learn of the old theatre's existence.

Nice! I'm happy to hear you picked up something interesting from the article. I certainly learned a lot while doing the research. Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:11, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• • "coming close to beating the record for London's longest-running musical" – oh no it didn't, not by a jugful: Chu Chin Chow ran for 2,238 performances in the West End, from 1916 to 1921. Most of my comments are purely advisory, but this one isn't. The facts are not correctly stated in the article here, and this must be remedied.

Whoops. Thank you for correcting that -- I misread the Levinson source. I've just removed that fictional fact from the article... Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• • "Fritz, had passed away" – he didn't pass away, pass on, or pass out: he died. WP:EUPHEMISM. I wonder, incidentally, why people die of all sorts of illnesses, but only cancer has "struggles with" it?

True enough. Fixed. Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• • I doubt that Ira scored Lady, Be Good, and I doubt that George did, either, at that stage in his career: I think he learned to score later. From memory I think the first show he scored for himself was Let 'em Eat Cake. I wonder if the source means that this was the first show for which the Gershwins wrote all the songs.

Hmm. Levinson says that Lady, Be Good marked "the first time George and Ira had written the entire score for a Broadway musical" (p39), while Kathleen Riley says the show was "the first musical entirely scored by the Gershwin brothers, George and Ira" (p99). Is there a nuance in meaning here that I'm missing? Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

I have always understood that to score a piece means to orchestrate it. I have checked in the Oxford English Dictionary, which confirms that usage, and Grove's Dictionary of Music and Musicians says, "The verb 'to score' means to compose or arrange for ensemble performance, either with or without voices. 'Scoring' in its creative sense may thus mean either 'orchestration' or 'instrumentation'." Gershwin supervised the scoring of his earlier musicals and, later having learned to orchestrate, did the job himself. Howard Pollack's big study of Gershwin says that it is not certain how much, if any, of Lady, Be Good was scored by Gershwin; what is certain is that none of it was scored by Ira. I'm not sure how relevant any of this is to the articles on either Adele or Fred Astaire. Tim riley talk 11:35, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Tim riley, if you think the distinction is important here, I could tweak the wording to say something like "the first Broadway musical with music and lyrics written entirely by George and Ira Gershwin". Alanna the Brave (talk) 16:57, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

I think that would be a good move, but it's entirely your call. Tim riley talk 17:10, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• • "brought … overseas to London" – as above.

Fixed. Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• • "of The 9th Duke of Devonshire" – I don't think I'd give the definite article a capital letter.

Yikes - fixed. Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• • "Cavendish was several years younger than Astaire, and the pair were quickly attracted to each other" – a strange sentence: it seems to suggest that it was the age difference that made them mutually attracted.

Split into two sentences. Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• Retirement and first marriage (1932—1946)
  • "For Astaire, theatrical life" – perhaps just "for her…"?

Sure -- edited. Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• • "appendicitis, an ailment brought on by heavy drinking" – I'm no medical expert but that's a new one to me. I'd like a very solid citation for the statement.

Hmm -- poorly-worded on my part. I've re-written it to be "appendicitis, his ill health exacerbated by heavy drinking". Is that better? Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Fine. Tim riley talk 11:35, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• • "private chapel in Chatsworth" – the preposition feels not quite right. The chapel is in Chatsworth House, undeniably, but "at Chatsworth" would seem more natural. Either way you need a blue link to Chatsworth.

Fixed. Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• • "Her mother remained home at Lismore" – unless I've looked straight through it, there has been no previous mention that Mrs A. was living with the Cavendishes.

Edited version: "her mother, who had remained in Ireland to be near her daughter, now stayed home at Lismore". Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• Second marriage and later life (1947—1980)
  • "Astaire's mother passed away" – as above: she died.

Fixed. Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

• References
  • The sourcing will pass muster at GA level, but I note that half the citations refer to Riley (no relation of mine, as far as I know) and 70 per cent of the rest refer to Levinson. I don't question the authority of those two sources, but a wider range would be preferable if you take the article to FA once this GAN is concluded, and I see no reason why you shouldn't.

Tim riley, I've never attempted an FA article before, but I've been thinking about it. Maybe I'll give it a shot sometime this year. What kind of citation ratio should I aim for when it comes to sources (e.g. no single source comprises more than 30 per cent of references)? At a later date I might be able to address this. Alanna the Brave (talk) 02:52, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

I don't know of any rule-of-thumb about the percentage of citations of any one source. Reviewers are generably sensible enough to recognise that some subjects have more sources than others, and that where the authoritative sources are few, they are necessarily much referred to. The important thing is to be able to say you have consulted a representative range of the best available authorities. For example, I imagine many of the facts in the article appear not only in Levinson and Riley but also in some of the many books about Fred. You cite Joseph Epstein's book once, but I'm sure you could cite it, or other Fred biographies for facts that relate to both the siblings, such as (without checking, I admit) refs 1, 4, 15, 21, and so on. Sometimes doing this brings you to the original source from which your source got the information: for instance, Riley doesn't say so, but she took the facts and the Coward quote ascribed to her at ref 23b from Fred's Steps in Time (pp. 86–87). Tim riley talk 11:35, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Good advice. I'll keep this in mind. Alanna the Brave (talk) 16:57, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

This is an admirable article, a good read, well proportioned, neutral in tone, and surprisingly well illustrated. All the pictures seem to be properly documented. I look forward to cutting the ceremonial ribbon once you have had time to consider the above points. Tim riley talk 17:57, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Tim riley -- I think I've addressed most (if not all) of your comments. Let me know if I can make any further changes. Thanks so much for this review! I appreciate your thoughtful read-through of the article, and I think your suggestions have definitely helped tighten it up. Alanna the Brave (talk) 03:13, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Good. Well, we're there, I think. If you go on to FAC I strongly advise going to peer review first. If you do, by all means ping me and I'll lean on a few leanable editors to weigh in. Meanwhile, for GAN:

Overall summary

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   Well referenced.

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   Well referenced.

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   Well illustrated.

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

   Well illustrated.

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

It has been a pleasure to read and review this article, and I hope to see it again en route to FAC. Tim riley talk 17:10, 29 January 2019 (UTC)