Talk:1964 Zagreb flood

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Theleekycauldron (talk) 19:47, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

( Comment or view )

( Article history links:

• Pero Pirker
• 1964 Zagreb flood

)

• ... that a year after the 2020 Zagreb earthquake, an essay comparing its aftermath with the handling of the devastating 1964 flood by former Zagreb mayor Pero Pirker was trending on social media? Source: "A text about Zagreb mayor Pero Pirker by former MP Goran Beus Richembergh has quickly spread on Facebook. ... In a repost ... [Richembergh] compared [Pirker's] decisions with those of recently deceased [mayor Milan Bandić. ... To top it all, in the second year of his term, Zagreb was struck by the worst flood in its history... [Pirker] had to coordinate a large relief effort... which he did successfully."] (original Croatian in wikicomment: )
  • ALT½: ... that a year after the 2020 Zagreb earthquake, a biography comparing its aftermath with the handling of the devastating 1964 flood by former Zagreb mayor Pero Pirker was trending on social media? Source: "A text about Zagreb mayor Pero Pirker by former MP Goran Beus Richembergh has quickly spread on Facebook. ... In a repost ... [Richembergh] compared [Pirker's] decisions with those of recently deceased [mayor Milan Bandić. ... To top it all, in the second year of his term, Zagreb was struck by the worst flood in its history... [Pirker] had to coordinate a large relief effort... which he did successfully."] (original Croatian in wikicomment: )
  • ALT1: ... that mayor Pero Pirker was largely forgotten despite leading recovery and rebuilding efforts after the devastating 1964 Zagreb flood? Source: same as above + "After the end of the Croatian Spring, Pirker fell from grace in politics and his prior results were completely ignored. His early death accelerated his fall into oblivion." (original Croatian in wikicomment: )
  • ALT2: ... that Pero Pirker, mayor of Zagreb, Croatia, contracted and died of lung cancer only years after helping found the Croatian League Against Cancer? Source: "Unfortunately, although he had been healthy until then, around mid-1972 he had some health troubles and died in August that year. ... The autopsy showed the cause of death was an aggressive lung cancer." (original Croatian in wikicomment: ) — "After his return from the United States in 1964, with a group of physicians from and outside the hospital, and with the assistance of Pero Pirker, the mayor of Zagreb, he [Ivo Padovan] founded the League Against Cancer." p.190(3)

• Reviewed: Younousse Sèye & Chestnut-capped piha
• Comment: I created the Pero Pirker article in my userspace in March[1] and merged it into the mainspace version earlier this week. Please also credit Tomobe03 for helping out with the Pero Pirker article.

5x expanded by Daß Wölf (talk). Self-nominated at 04:18, 19 November 2021 (UTC).

• Comment: Articles have indeed undergone an 8.6x and 77.1x (no, that's not a typo) expansions, respectively. I'm not going to do a full review, just leaving a comment to say that and to add that while Tomobe03 made very useful aesthetic edits to both articles, their impact on the expansion was rather limited and a DYK credit to them doesn't seem to be in order to me. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/she) 05:11, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

• I agree completely that Daß Wölf is solely to be credited here. My contribution was minimal. Tomobe03 (talk) 13:24, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

• Full review needed. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:43, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

• Both articles were expanded enough. I used an online translator to help me verify the facts in non-English sources, but I do know that isn't always the greatest so I assume good faith. I also assume good faith on the print sources. Both articles are neutral. There are a few issues. For the first hook, the Pero Pirker article calls the work a biography instead of an essay. The other two hooks are fine and are directly cited. OpenStreetMap in the Pero Pirker article shouldn't be used to cite anything due to it being editable by anyone. SL93 (talk) 00:17, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

• @SL93: Thanks for the review, and for taking time and effort to translate the sources, I can imagine that must've been onerous! I've replaced the references to OpenStreetMap with secondary sources and struck out "essay" in ALT0. Please let me know if there's anything else that needs to be done. Daß Wölf 16:05, 31 December 2021 (UTC)
• P.S. Feel free to reword ALT½. Putting "biography" there without Pirker's name directly attached feels odd, but I haven't been able to find a better way to word it without making it too long. Perhaps "text" would be better...? Daß Wölf 16:13, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

• This is ready and I will let the promoter choose the hook. SL93 (talk) 17:34, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

ALT1 to T:DYK/P4

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:1964 Zagreb flood/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Mujinga (talk · contribs) 12:09, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Overview

I'll take this on as part of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/GAN Backlog Drives/January 2022. Comments to follow later today. Mujinga (talk) 12:09, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

• This is a very detailed read which I could see moving onto Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates with a minimum of fuss. The article is stable, neutral, focused and (more than) sufficiently broad. I have some queries, mainly on prose that I've put below so I'll put the article on hold to see if they can be addressed. Mujinga (talk) 10:52, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
  • @Mujinga: I think I've addressed all the comments for now. Awaiting the rest of the review :) Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
    • @Daß Wölf: : good work i see the changes. we are pretty much there now, I've made a few suggestions (for ease of finding see edits titled "suggestion" in history) and then we are done. Mujinga (talk) 11:57, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
      • @Mujinga: thanks, I hope I've got them all! Daß Wölf 15:21, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
        • yup all done, nice one on a decent article! i certainly learnt something from it Mujinga (talk) 10:09, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

          Thanks, really happy to hear this! Daß Wölf 22:28, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Copyvio check

• Earwig throws up nothing to worry about

Infobox

• din. - Yugoslav dinars
  • Done. Daß Wölf 16:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
• Date 25 October 1964 - or a span of days eg Date 25-27 October 1964?
  • I left it like this because the sources don't name any specific date as the ending of the flood. It seems that the water still remained in a few places in Trnje after 27–28 October, but I haven't been able to find anything more specific than that in the sources I have. Daß Wölf 16:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Pictures

• all licenses good and the pix generally illustrate the article really well
  • Thanks! Daß Wölf 16:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
• Foto with caption "River Sava in Trnje. The shorter blue building in front is the Kockica, while the reddish-brown Vjesnik Building can be partly seen at the right edge of the photo" - Kockica isn't mentioned in the article, if this is the same Vjesnik building (small b) would it be better for the image to be in the section talking about Vjesnik the newspaper?
  • Yes, it's the same building. I've moved it and removed the Kockica text. I only added that because I wanted to link an existing building article (Kockica was under construction in 1964 and the IIRC the foundations had to be redone because of the flood, but I think it would be too much to shoehorn that in the article anyway). However, that left the Background section without a picture, and there don't seem to be many good pictures of Sava I could replace it with, so I've added a photo of Cvjetno naselje under Suburban expansion, since this neighbourhood was built in the timeframe referenced and remains pretty much unchanged. Thoughts? Daß Wölf 16:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
    • cool! Mujinga (talk) 11:37, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
• Foto with caption "Boats were the only viable means of transport for days in much of the flooded area." - wpuld this not be better beside the text talking about people using boats?
  • Moved. Daß Wölf 16:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
• Per MOS:ALT, pix shoudl have alt texts
  • Done for several pictures, will do the rest later. Daß Wölf 16:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
    •  Done Mujinga (talk) 11:37, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Lead

• Can you give full names for SR Croatia, SFR Yugoslavia
  • Done Daß Wölf 16:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
• "However, changes in the riverbed are believed to have somewhat decreased the effectiveness of the defences as of the early 21st century" where is that in the text below
  • It's meant to summarise the last para of Improvements to flood defences. Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
    • seems ok, i think i got stuck thinking the changes were by man, now i see what you meant Mujinga (talk) 11:38, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
• otherwise lead is great!

Geography and hydrology

• "was described as" - described by who?
  • The article doesn't credit anyone by name, but I presumed it was a RS because the website is ran by the University of Zagreb and its editors are two of its professors. Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• "The latter part only sustains" suggest take out only
  • Done Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• "Floods of Sava in Zagreb have been recorded since the antiquity. " suggest "Floods of the Sava in Zagreb have been recorded since antiquity" and moving paragpraph up to include previous three sentences as well
  • Done Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• "The first floods attested in modern records date back to 14th century.[13] The first chronicled flood occurred in 1469" suggest something like "The first floods recorded in modern times date back to 14th century, with the first being in 1469"
  • The 1469 flood (in the 15th century ;-) ) is the first one for which the year of occurrence is known. The floods from 14th century apparently cannot be traced to a specific year (IIRC one source mentioned that a certain parish church was moved in the 14th century "due to the floods").
• "Zagreb's twin cities" can that be explained?
  • I've rewritten this part, hopefully that makes it clearer. Kaptol and Gradec were two fortified towns that exercised political control over the region during the Middle Ages. I originally tried to stress that Donji grad, Kaptol and Gradec are all directly adjacent, on the fault line where the plain and the hills meet, but it may have come a little awkward. Please let me know if you have any ideas how to make this all sound like less of a mouthful. Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
    • reads good now! Mujinga (talk) 11:41, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
• " owned possessions in" do you mean they owned land?
  • Checking the source, it seems Kaptol would've owned the land directly, since the town itself belonged to the Catholic Church, but in the case of Gradec it's not clear if it was some kind of common land or if it was owned by particular citizens. I've changed it to a less specific phrasing, since in any case it was within the towns' administrative boundaries. Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
    • not a biggie but I'd suggest changing "mostly used for its natural products, such as hunting, planting orchards and harvesting wood" to "mostly used for hunting, planting orchards and harvesting wood" Mujinga (talk) 11:41, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
      • Done Daß Wölf 15:11, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
• "The city was slow to expand as even the Donji grad area, which lies on the northern edge of the plain, right below Kaptol and Gradec, was prone to flooding until it was artificially raised around the turn of the 20th century" suggest "The city was slow to expand since even the Donji grad area, which lies on the northern edge of the plain, was prone to flooding until it was artificially raised around the beginning of the 20th century"
  • Done Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Suburban expansion into the floodplain

• "and 1933" not sure why 1933 is redlinked
  • From the indirect mentions in the sources it seems the 1933 flood was worse than others in the surrounding decades, and hence was the standard for comparison for the newspapers covering this flood. I should probably create a stub there. I'm not sure whether other floods were notable since I didn't run into any WP:SIGCOV of them so I didn't redlink them. Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• "alone grew" suggest "alone had grown"
  • Done Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• "at 455 centimetres (14 ft 11 in)" suggest "at a height of 455 centimetres (14 ft 11 in)"
  • Done Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• " the new neighbourhoods" what style of english are you using? the article is marked engvarb, but something earlier made me think it was written in US eng, which would want neighborhood. So we need to be consistent. Oh yes it was the use of percent, whereas Br eng would want per cent.
  • Yes, I intended BrE. I've changed all the occurrences to "per cent". Please suggest any other fixes I may have missed! Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• "Together, the new neighbourhoods created a high density of residences, industry, and municipal buildings, precariously situated on the Sava floodplain." this sentence is currently uncited
  • I guess that's editorialising, I should probably remove that. Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
    • agree prob best to remove then Mujinga (talk) 11:42, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
      • done! Daß Wölf 15:21, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
• stopping for a break here Mujinga (talk) 15:08, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Flooding

• "Sava's upper course" - the Sava's upper course?
  • Done Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• i can't check the source right now, so can i check if Vadlja 1965, p. 27. covers all info up to that point?
  • Do you mean the ref after "... in the 1933 flood,"? Yes, it's meant to cover the sentences before it as well. I've added the ref at the end of the preceding sentence; I didn't know refs should be repeated in these cases. Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
    • because the ref was in the middle of the sentence, it's hard (for me) to understand if its referencing everything that came before in the paragraph or just the specific claim it's on. works for me now! Mujinga (talk) 11:43, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
      • Yes, I can absolutely see where you're coming from. I'll make sure to add refs like this in the future ;-) Daß Wölf 15:11, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

25 October

• "first to flood in Zagreb metropolitan area" - first to flood in the Zagreb metropolitan area
  • Done Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• "makeshift dykes out of" = makeshift dykes made out of
  • Done Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• "since the records began in November 1849" i thought records began 1469?
  • The source refers to records for the gauge, which was then presumably installed (not sure how to express this clearly). Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
    • i see hmm hard not to do original research here. maybe "records at the bridge" might work to differentiate from the 1469 records? Mujinga (talk) 11:45, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
      • I rechecked the source, it actually specifically says that this gauge began operations in Nov 1849, so I've edited the text to reflect that. Daß Wölf 15:21, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

26 October

• oh gosh the account is getting scary! glad i don't live near a river
  • Yeah, finding out how wide the flooded area was was pretty disturbing, considering that in summer the river often looks like you could just wade through it.
• "The last remaining passable arterial road in Trešnjevka was part of Samobor Road, an east-west road along the railway" reads a bit clunky with three "road"s can you rephrase?
  • Reworded. Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

27–28 October

• "a warehouse for Zagreb factories, " suggest a warehouse for factories,
  • Done Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Extent of the flood in Zagreb

• ok

Outside Zagreb

• ok

Preparations and impact

• "did not reach many of the residents" suggest "did not reach residents,"
  • Done Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Damages and casualties

• "1 billion Yugoslav dinars in losses" dinars is wikilinked her ebut not at 3 billion dinars above in "outside zagreb"
  • Fixed. Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• "Some factories endangered by Sava " suggest Some factories endangered by Sava, in any case need to be consistent if its Sava or the Sava
  • I've stuck with "the Sava", I hope all the mentions have been corrected by now. Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• "The Šimecki shoe shop sold wet shoes at a 95 percent discount, finding a great demand" - excellent!
  • IIRC there are a few more such tidbits in the book this was sourced to, but I didn't want to overuse the source. Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• "100 billion din." may as well say dinar as elsewhere
  • Done Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Rescue and relief efforts

• In addition to 25 motor vehicles, ambulance crews often used boats to reach the patients.[107][108][109][110] - dont need all these refs, surely
  • Trimmed Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Effects on the city

• "A few of the houses were reportedly" suggest "A few houses were reportedly" and can you say where?
  • I've added the neighbourhood. Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• "Most remained standing but many" suggest "Most remained standing but others"
  • This refers to houses that remained standing, but were still condemned. I'm not sure if it's because they were low quality and thought cheaper to rebuild, or if repair really was impossible, perhaps because the construction materials (mostly wood in these neighbourhoods) began to rot. I've edited the text to make this clearer. Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• " the building of the Faculty of Humanities and Social Sciences," of what university?
  • Fixed Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Improvements to flood defences

• "detention fields" is that a technical term?
  • The Croatian term is "retencija", but from checking Wikipedia seems that English makes a distinction between "retention" and "detention", where the former only corresponds to areas that are meant to hold water all the time. Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
    • thanks for clarification and on that note can you link detention basins in lead? Mujinga (talk) 11:53, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
      • Done Daß Wölf 15:11, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
• "so the refuse was disposed at a temporary site in Dubrava" suggest "so the refuse was disposed of at a temporary site in Dubrava" or "so the refuse was dumped at a temporary site in Dubrava"
  • Done Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• "According to Hrvatske vode, in Zagreb urban area" - According to Hrvatske vode, in the Zagreb urban area
  • Done Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• "exceed the crest of a 1,000-year flood" link goes to 100-year flood?
  • It's a similar topic, but indeed a little unexpected for the readers. I've also considered linking to return period. What do you think? Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
    • ummm i guess return period since that does mention 1000 years (and im assuming the source says 1000 years) Mujinga (talk) 11:49, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
      • Done, and good find BTW! (Yep, the source says 1,000 years) Daß Wölf 15:11, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
• "According to an academic paper" suggest "According to academic Stjepan Šterc"
  • Done Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Legacy

• "The flood and recovery therefrom" suggest deleting therefrom
  • Done Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
• "following the suppression of the Croatian Spring in 1971 and his death from cancer the next year" suggest "following the suppression of the Croatian Spring in 1971; he died the next year"
  • The fall into oblivion came later, his funeral was attended by masses protesting against the suppression. The source alleges that he was forgotten because he died young (unlike other Croatian Spring leaders who would become relevant again after Croatia gained independence). Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
    • ok ... so on "fell into oblivion following the suppression of the Croatian Spring in 1971 and his death from cancer the next year" then i read it as he fell into oblivion after the Croatian Spring AND after his death, but you are saying his oblivion came later so I still want you to rephrase to reflect that if possible Mujinga (talk) 11:51, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
      • Hmm, maybe I phrased this badly. He did fall into oblivion after his death, presumably not quite right after, but going off the source there doesn't seem to have been a third event that would've caused it. I originally read your sentence as saying that the sentence reads as if he fell into oblivion right after he left politics and died forgotten; hence my writing "later". The source goes on to say that his work was ignored until and after the fall of Communism for (different) political reasons, I could add that but I thought that might be going into too far off topic. Daß Wölf 15:11, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
        • ah i see! then we that's ok Mujinga (talk) 10:08, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

See also

• ok

Notes

• ok

References

• Not all titles have the english translation
  • Fixed. Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
    • • good job! Mujinga (talk) 11:52, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
• "Bilić, Josip; Ivanković, Hrvoje, eds. (2006). Zagrebački leksikon (in Croatian). Zagreb: Miroslav Krleža Institute of Lexicography and Masmedia. ISBN 953-157-486-3" gives Missing or empty |title=
  • Corrected Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

External links

• I'm afraid you'll need to delete "The Flood (1964) by Bogdan Žižić on YouTube (in Croatian)" unless you can show it is published by the copyright holder
  • I've removed it. A lot of these shorts were published by the Croatian Radiotelevision, but it appears this one wasn't and the uploader is just some random person. Daß Wölf 22:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.