Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby union/Archive 5

Biography infobox

Is there any particular reason why so many rugby union and dual-code players are using the rugby league biography infobox? Rugby league has its own biography infobox, so the rugby union and dual-code players should use the one designed for them (Template:Infobox Rugby biography). Better yet, why not leave that infobox to the dual-code players and create a brand new one for the union players? To be quite honest, the current one is pretty shoddy anyway, in my opinion. Way too many parameters! - PeeJay 20:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah a lot of the paramaters seem unnecessary, the rugby League one is preferable only because its not so scruffy in appearance. I would be in favour of improving the appearance of the RU infobox, but I don't think I've got the design skills do do such a great job of it myself. King of the North East (T/C) 01:04, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Same goes for me, combined with the fact that my coding skillz are a bit sub-par. I'm pretty certain that all the different clubs, years, apps and points parameters could be combined for the RU part though. There really isn't a need to segregate a player's Super Rugby career from their career in the NPC or in the Northern Hemisphere. - PeeJay 02:00, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, same goes for amateur players from Argentina, why differentinate, a clubs a club, they should all be in the same list for the sake of clarity. Couldn't think how to solve it now tho, there must be hundreds of em.King of the North East (T/C) 02:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The infobox isn't that bad looking. There are a lot of parameters but thats not the end of the world. The rugby infobox was originally for both rugby and league, but then a specific rugby league one was created. I definitely think that dual code players should only have one infobox rather then two, it looks very messy having two. I think segregating provincial, Super 14 and club rugby is important for the southern hemisphere players. Most of them play both provincial and Super 14 rugby (for different teams), and occasionally club rugby (if they have been dropped, or are requiring match fitness following an injury). A club is definitely not the same as a province, or franchise. All three are different. - Shudde ^talk 04:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Not in infobox terms. Players make appearances and score points for clubs, provinces and franchises, so what's the point in having separate parameters? - PeeJay 08:23, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Because it should be clear what is what. Take Mark Hammett for example. He has provincial, club, Super rugby, and national teams listed. How is this a bad thing? There are clear differences between all those teams. Also, you can have players playing for all four of those types of teams more or less concurrently, so to have them all listed together (or even some of them, such as super teams and provincial teams) could be very confusing. - Shudde ^talk 19:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't say I agree with you on this one, Shudde. I mean, it may work for players from New Zealand, where it is commonplace to have players registered with two or even three clubs at any one time, but it's when players from the Southern Hemisphere move up to the North that problems arrive, and with the current mass-exodus of many ABs to the NH, it seems like this is something that needs a bit of attention. - PeeJay 19:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Why? If they are from the NH then it just has a list of clubs, which is what you would expect right? If they move from SH to NH then you add clubs as well. I don't know why this is a problem. - Shudde ^talk 21:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I just find it confusing having so many parameters for one template, and apparently I'm not the only one who thinks it's a bit overdone. Surely there's a compromise solution we're not seeing. - PeeJay 00:05, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with PJ, anyone with a limited understanding of Rugby, looking at an article with the infobox as it is, will be confused by it. Part of the problem is the update parameters that seem to have too much prominance in the infobox with "correct as of ." reccuring far to much, often with no date next to it. I don't know enough about southern hemisphere club rugby to offer any solutions on the club and provincial team thing. Maybe I'll have a go at tidying it up a bit, I'll look for consensus here before I make any changes though. King of the North East (T/C) 00:19, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the update parameters can be reduced so it's only in the template once. It is redundant to have more then one of those. - Shudde ^talk 00:40, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Shudde. We need to make the distinction between Super rugby, local and provincial sides esp. as a player can be playing for all three during the same period. Also, the number of parameters is not a problem, because if you don't require them, you simply delete them. One infobox is better than two on the same page, and looks ok on pages like Jason Robinson. I also don't think it looks confusing... Weight = Age = Amateur Clubs = All self explanatory really... --Bob 16:02, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Wales national rugby union team now Featured Article candidate

I have nominated Wales national rugby union team for Featured Article status. If you would like to comment at the article's candidacy page you can do so here. Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 08:31, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Was wondering if any of your would please be able to comment at the FAC page. It already has several comments, but more would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 09:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Takudzwa Ngwenya article

I would like to bring your attention to the Takudzwa Ngwenya article. This guy will quickly become a star, we should anticipate his rising status by expanding and clean this article. Americain rugby popularity can improve by this only guy ! Stasm 12:42; 24 September, 2007 (UTC).

WP:CRYSTAL. – PeeJay 13:41, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Not really WP:CRYSTAL if you saw his try against the springboks. He looks like a real talent, anyone who has been awarded Try of the year probably deserves a good article.King of the NorthEast 00:06, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, it's that guy, is it? My bad. Still, it wasn't a very convincing pitch, IMO. – PeeJay 00:21, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Is he related with Houston Dynamo's Joseph Ngwenya? However, he's a really good player. --necronudist (talk) 12:15, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Chris Malone & Shaun Berne

I've added them to the list of requested articles, but would just like to add here that getting them quality bio pages are probably of pretty high importance, seeing as they're currently #1 and 2 in the premiership in scoring, respectively, and have not even a stub to their name. Johnbiggs (talk) 03:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Are there some webpages with any information on them? - Shudde ^talk 03:25, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I can't find many beside the GP official site and the clubs' sites. Johnbiggs (talk) 03:48, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Edit: This page has a bit of info on Malone: [1] Johnbiggs (talk) 04:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I've done a stub for Chris Malone, but I'll have to do a bit more digging for stuff on Shaun Berne. – PeeJay 23:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Portal peer review

I have requested a peer review of Portal:Rugby Union here. I am trying to get the portal to featured status; I'm not sure how far away it is because I do not have very much experience with portals, and would greatly appreciate any feedback at all. Please be bold and let me know your thoughts. Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 20:28, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Woking IRB Forum

Things seems to advance quickly in Woking for the IRB Forum. Argentina has been invited to play the bye team in the Tri-Nations. Many more is going to change from this meeting, so, It seems evidence to make an article about this, but which name to give it ? Woking forum, 2007 IRB Forum. Also, how made this article ? Stasm 28 September 2007, 23:33(UTC).

Actually any results from the forum are far from certain yet. See [2]. What is the official name for the forum? - Shudde ^talk 23:35, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Cristian Ruben Spachuck

This guy played for Portugal at the World Cup, where he went by the name "Ruben Spachuck". However, User:Mistico has raised the argument that in Portugal, and on the French Wikipedia, the player is referred to as Cristian Spachuk (with only one C in his surname). I have attempted to explain to Mistico that Wikipedia policy is to name articles per the name that the person is most commonly known by in the English-language media, but he doesn't seem to be having any of it, and now he wishes to email the Portuguese Rugby Union to clarify the situation. If anyone could help defuse the situation, the discussion is at User talk:Mistico#Ruben/Cristian Spachuck. Thanks. – PeeJay 18:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Portal:Rugby union nomination for Featured Portal status

After the peer review I have nominated Portal:Rugby union for Featured Portal status. Please leave your comments at the nomination page here. Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 20:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Automatic links

Any article that has the "RFC" abbreviation followed by a number will automatically be made into an external link. As in RFC 10, see also Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Automatic external link. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 17:10, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Little help?

I'm trying to find a citation for Rhys Thomas (rugby player born 1904), but I'm having trouble even figuring out if this individual really exists. I couldn't find any non-Wikipedia sources for his existence and the article was started by a long-gone anon, so I can't ask the article's original creator for one. I want to add a proper citation for List of centenarians, but I can't seem to find one. Is this article a hoax or is this just another example of how much I suck at Google? Cheers, CP 23:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I've had the same result. No reference to even the existance of this player in anything but Wikipedia or mirror sites. I think it is a hoax, if he had lived a hundred years then there would be some reference to him when he supposedly died in 2004.GordyB (talk) 23:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, as long as I'm not totally off base with this one. I'm going to tag it as a hoax and nominate it for deletion with the added reservation that if reliable sources can be found, I will be more than a happy to withdraw the nomination. Cheers, CP 01:24, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Finding a good Collaboration of the Fortnight

Unfortunately the Project's Collaboration of the Fortnight has not been functioning very well for some time. From memory the most successful collaboration was Rugby World Cup which is now a Featured Article. I am hoping that some of us can get together and actually start an effective collaboration. I have nominated several articles, and am taking a few things into consideration;

• The article must be relevant to as many editors as possible.
• It must be a topic as many people as possible feel they can contribute to.
• It should be something that resources and references can be easily found for.

Based on this I have nominated several articles I believe meet these criteria. Please have a look at the nominations page, but specifically I have nominated: Six Nations Championship, history of rugby union, playing rugby union and also rugby union. Please would people have a look and support an article if they will, or add another nomination if they can think of a good one. I'd really like to get some form of collaboration going. Any ideas on how to do this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 04:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Rugby Team Template

Following on from the international squad templates, I'm after creating one for usage with club rugby. I've done a small bit of tinkering regarding the name and such. Template:Club rugby squad Working fine for Template:Munster Rugby squad. Anyone able to change the template again so you can set the two background colours to match the club in question ? ManfromDelmonte (talk) 15:16, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

That option was recently removed from the national squad templates and all other rugby union templates because it looked garish when many templates aligned the bottom of the page all with different colours. Also, I don't believe there is any use for Template:Club rugby squad, as Template:Rugby union squad can cope well with club and franchise teams. --Bob (talk) 15:30, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I have listed it for deletion today. --Bob (talk) 02:29, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Portal:Rugby union

Portal:Rugby union is now a Featured Portal. Thanks to all those that contributed, especially Bob who acted on many of the comments at the nominations page. - Shudde ^talk 22:16, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Rugby union now collaboration of the fortnight

Rugby union is now the collaboration of the fortnight. Would be good if as many people as possible could contribute to the article and try to get it as close as possible to Featured status. Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 20:03, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Succession boxes

I know that succession boxes are common on lots of articles (whether it be sports articles or otherwise), but I think that having all the Five Nations and Home Nations wins in articles such as England national rugby union team and France national rugby union team looks pretty awful. What if we were to add Calcutta Cup victories as well? It'd be absurd. I think we should do one of two things:

• Only have succession boxes for Rugby World Cup, Six Nations Championship and Tri Nations Series
• Or, make the succession boxes much, much smaller. Formatting them so you don't have several pages to scroll down!

Any support, or further suggestions would be welcomed. We should try to reach a consensus on this. - Shudde ^talk 22:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I personally think that succession boxes are an eyesore, and a blight on Wikipedia. I was going to say they should be restricted to individual instances of competitions (i.e. the 2007 Rugby World Cup article would have a succession box linking it to the 2003 Rugby World Cup article and the 2011 Rugby World Cup article), but then I realised that that's what we have navboxes for. Get rid of succession boxes entirely, I say! – PeeJay 22:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the succession box for the World Cups seem pretty pointless, as they have the navigation box below them. However, I think that having succesion boxes for championships on team pages is a good thing. The succession boxes for the full Home Nations/Five/Six Nations are pretty large, but then the competition goes back to 1883. Should the Six Nations be counted as the current competition, and only results for that included? Presumably the Tri Nations should display results back to it's inception in 1996? For a comparison with football, the Uruguay national football team article has a page of succession boxes going back to 1916 for the South American championship. KeithW (talk) 00:12, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Well it shouldn't. Succession boxes take up way too much space, considering the minimal function they perform in sports-related articles. I can see why they would be used for film/television awards winners, but when you get teams like Rangers F.C., who have won about 100 trophies, they get totally useless. – PeeJay 00:17, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Definitely oppose. Succession boxes were designed for things where there is an actual succession - kings, queens, archbishops, etc. They only work in a sane fashion in situations where a given subject will only hold a given position once (or in rare circumstances, a small number of times). Sporting titles are far better served in a list form, e.g.:

Tri Nations champions: 8 times (1996, 1997, 1999, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007)

The boxes in Uruguay national football team are a horrible eyesore imho. --Stormie (talk) 00:37, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Remove all, the list of champions can be found on the appropriate pages, and in their current form look hideous --Bob (talk) 02:28, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

So should the national rugby teams all have an 'Honours' section, similar to Rangers F.C.#Honours, instead of the current use of succession boxes? Presumably the honours included would be Rugby World Cup, Home/Five/Six Nations Championship and Tri Nations Series? KeithW (talk) 09:11, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

This would be unnecessary as the Tri-Nations and Six Nations sections state how many times they have won their respective tournaments, and the info box the World Cup. I think those honours sections are an eyesore as well. Things should be delisted as much as possible. (compare the number of lists, without prose, of an article such as England national rugby union team to a large football team's article). - Shudde ^talk 10:02, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

It has been a week... Votes for succession boxes: 1. Votes against: 4. I will start to cleanup now. --Bob (talk) 16:41, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Rugby Union biography

Has been nominated for deletion by User:Londo06. Your input is requested. --Bob (talk) 18:23, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

You mean it was nominated by you, and contested by Londo06. – PeeJay 18:48, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes I nominated it, sorry for the error, I meant to say created by and then tfd nom. by me. --Bob (talk) 19:00, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Is it not possible to make Template:Infobox Rugby biography satisfactory for all rugby union, rugby league, and dual-code players? What advantage is there to the specialized Template:Infobox Rugby Union biography and Template:Infobox rugby league biography? Which, by the way, are 100% identical to each other. Maybe we need a single-code "infobox rugby biography" and a dual-code "infobox rugby dual-code biography"? --Stormie (talk) 22:51, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Template:Infobox Rugby biography can list either union or league or both if required. I was also working on a format by which Template:Infobox Rugby biography could list league performances first, if that were the correct chronological order. Plus, I was working on bringing the formatting of Template:Infobox Rugby biography more in line with Template:Infobox rugby league biography and others, perhaps with a colour change or similar for each of the codes. However, I'm not going to waste my time if it won't be used. As a point, I don't think the presence of two infoboxes on the page is a good idea. One is sufficient. I also think that league and union careers should be seperated, as they are not the same. --Bob (talk) 23:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

It should definitely be used for dual-code players, although when I first changed Brad Thorn my edits were reverted (rather rashly). It's since been done again, but I can see there being heaps of arguments trying to use the same infobox for rugby union and rugby league players (as well as dual-code players) even though {{tl:Infobox Rugby biography}} is designed for both. - Shudde ^talk 02:48, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Dwayne Peel

Should his confirmed move at the conclusion of the current season go on the rugby infobox? It would do for rugby league and soccer infoboxes, just thought i'd seek opinions on whether it should stay or go.Londo06 (talk) 18:10, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

It certainly would not be included in soccer infoboxes. Only 100% completed moves are recorded. Anything could happen that would prevent Peel's move from going through between now and the end of the season, so I vote for not including Sale Sharks in his infobox until the move is complete. – PeeJay 18:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I have seen them on soccer infoboxes but Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a crystal ball is adhered to much more closely for soccer. That's why I brought the discussion.Londo06 (talk) 18:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I've seen them on soccer infoboxes too, but I usually revert as soon as I see it. As a regular at WP:FOOTY and WP:RU, I like to think I can bring some of the better qualities from each to the other, and this is one of them. – PeeJay 18:45, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Rugby in Spain

Is anybody interested to make a huge improvement about the related articles with me ? League, players, national teams lack details. Stasm 20:23, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Highlanders (rugby) peer review

I have requested a peer review of the Super 14 team Highlanders (rugby). It's currently a Good Article and I'm aiming to improve it to Featured Article standard. Please comment at the peer review comments page here. Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 00:04, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Navboxes for players

Added navboxes to 11 of the 12 Guinness Premiership clubs. Any player who has moved from or to a club has not been added to the navbox. If there not on the clubs current list on their wikipedia pages then they are not on the navbox, if they are still on the current squad on the wikipedia page then they have most likely been transferred onto the navbox.CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 06:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Looking into resizing them to fit with other navboxes. Template:Edinburgh Rugby current is an example of one currently in use. Looking to set player names to surnames only and resize others. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 02:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

As I said to you on your talk page, club logos should be removed from the navboxes, and I would not be averse to replacing the "Player X is a member of the current Team Y squad" with simply "Team Y squad". I'm also not a fan of the coloured squares on the right-hand side of each navbox. I noticed they use them for the rugby league navboxes, but I really think they look quite unprofessional. – PeeJay 02:24, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Team colours can be removed from the navbox, am going to look into the team logos, and will also make player names appear as surname only. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 03:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I still don't understand what you mean by "I'm going to look into it". I'm telling you that team logos are not allowed in this sort of thing as they are purely decorative, which is against Fair Use guidelines. – PeeJay 04:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I have removed most of the logos per fair use. I also agree that Edinburgh Rugby Squad or similar for the title would be easier on the eye. Talking about ease on the eye. The choice of a using the club colours... I don't like it. A single colour should, in my opinion, be used, as is the case for all the international squads and other bottom of article rugby union navigation boxes. It just looks garish otherwise, plus some of the colours do not render properly on all browsers... Also, why hasn't the template {{Rugby union squad}} been implemented, as it standardises everything into a format which is easier on the eyes? --Bob (talk) 00:48, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

• More than happy to remove logos and team colours, can someone point me in the direction of a link for the fair use that means they cannot be used, as so far no joy. Once again more than happy to remove, just point me in the right direction. Many thanks. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 03:00, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
  • There is no way it's acceptable. Common sense would dictate that as a decorative item they are going to fail fair use rationale, and the consensus around here is that it's unacceptable in navigational templates. It's also implied at Wikipedia:Non-free content#Images 2 which says 'The use of non-free media in... navigational and user-interface elements is usually unacceptable for failing the test for significance (criterion #8)" I added the emphasis. - Shudde ^talk 06:34, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I removed all logos from the squad templates, but User:CorleoneSerpicoMontana has since reverted all without giving good reason and with the knowledge that the use of non-free logos violates wikipolicy. I can only assume that this user does not care for wikipolicy or for working together. He or she has also reverted edits made to {{Edinburgh Rugby squad}} that brought it into line with all other team templates by using {{Rugby union squad}}. To me, it looks like this user does not want to work together with this project and instead ride roughshod over the work of others. --Bob (talk) 16:20, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

My request for the guidance has been answered by Shudde ^talk and someone else has already gone ahead and removed the images so I can't redeem myself. Will still look for a way to improve the templates, tweaking existing versions rather than wholesale change.CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 21:56, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Within the project around here, especially with regard to templates, what Bob wants he normally gets! :) Seriously though, discussion is always preferable to reverting others edtis. It should be clear that most here think logo use within navigational templates is unacceptable, and if we retain them we are exposing Wikipedia to unnecessary legal risk. Also, lots of work has been done over the last 6 months (mainly by Bob) to standardise all navigational templates, and it would be best if we try and stick to the commonly accepted standards. - Shudde ^talk 23:39, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Volunteer

Hello Wikiproject Rugby union! I'm a stray dog, wandering from WP:FOOTBALL and found myself here to offer my assistance with peer reviews. I'm a really really keen round football reviewer and hopefully I can add some decent comments to articles this project deem worthy of review. To that end I'm just popping by to let you know that I'm happy to provide formal or informal comments on any RU articles and would be happy to be drawn into any relevant discussions. Please feel free to give me a shout whenever. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Nice one, thanks for your comments on Wikipedia:WikiProject Rugby union/Peer review/Highlanders (rugby), that's an excellent list of things to be polished up! --Stormie (talk) 02:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

All Blacks versus France at rugby union Featured Article candidate

I have nominated All Blacks versus France at rugby union for WP:FA Featured Article status following improvements made after the peer review from last year. Please add your comments to the nomination page here. Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 10:27, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

As above, I've re-reviewed the article for FAC and have left a number of comments. Hope they're of use, feel free to get in touch with me for any clarifications or explanations. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:31, 25 January 2008 (UTC)