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WikiProject Rugby union (Rated Project-class)
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Super Rugby statisticsEdit

Hi all,

I was looking to format the Super Rugby statistics into a table rather than a list however came across a problem verifying any of the appearance / tries / points statistics for Super Rugby and finding different stats on different sites, including on Wikipedia: here and here. Does anyone know of a reliable data set to use?

I've provided the first few rows of the future table below.

Rank Player Games Years Club(s)
1   Wyatt Crockett 202 2006–2018 Crusaders
2   Liam Messam 179 2006–2015
3   Keven Mealamu 175 2000–2015 Blues (164)
Chiefs (11)
  Stephen Moore 2003–2017 Reds (58)
Brumbies (117)

Bay of Plenty and Auckland separate pagesEdit

Hi guys, was wondering what people's views were on potential mergers of Bay of Plenty SteamersBay of Plenty Rugby Union and Auckland rugby union teamAuckland Rugby Union so they are inline with other Mitre 10 Cup teams. Neither 'team' pages are at all well sourced and don't really give any information apart from lists of previous players or small snippets of previous seasons. Any information in them could easily be merged into the main articles as they are for the other 12 teams. If people think merging them would be the best thing I'm happy to raise a merge proposition for the two pages. Thanks. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 18:45, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

I think there might be another article that exists like that also. I was thinking of a solution to tidy things up, especially to the non-rugby readers to help simplify things. My idea was to begin a project with creating new pages for the current professional Mitre 10 Cup teams. It would include a brief header, history to do with its origins, Ranfurly Shield, NPC, and current professional era. Also independent sections for current squad, notable players, Mitre 10 Cup record, and history surrounding the Governing Body or known as Union. Thus we can merge the pages all together. Let me know your thoughts. Kidsoljah (talk) 19:57, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
Personally I think the teams do need separate pages really. The Mitre 10 Cup teams are professional, widely covered and other than shared ownership are separate from the geographic unions that share their name. For instance the players play for who offers them a contract not their local union.Skeene88 (talk) 07:58, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments @Kidsoljah: and @Skeene88:, I am happy to create new pages for all of the Mitre 10 Cup teams, they will all likely start as stubs than will need improving from there though. The two I have listed I suggested merging as they lack sources are much other detail, but I am happy to try and improve those starting now. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 09:28, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
There will most likely be no use for the article representing the union to exist as the majority of them have information all to do with the men's top representative side and very little to do with the union's origin itself. These articles are very messy with very little sources. My idea would be to create a new article to do with the professional rugby team that represents that union and consolidate the information together. I believe this would simplify things for readers that know very little of rugby in New Zealand. These unions were also established to form a team chosen from the surrounding clubs. I am in the process of drafting a few together before I create them so you could later have a look and have your thoughts. I would like them to be GA articles. Kidsoljah (talk) 09:52, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
For the South African Currie Cup sides that represent each different province (or governing body) there are only pages for the Currie Cup sides and not the different unions. I though do not know if NZ rugby is governed differently from SA and how much power the NZ regions have compared to NZ. I feel for now that having a rugby union page and a smaller Mitre 10 Cup side page could be the way to go currently as the rugby union pages are probably to go to page for other tournaments such as the Farah Palmer Cup and junior tournaments. In the future if the women's tournaments become more notable and popular then pages could be created for them as well obviously. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 10:05, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

The Bay of Plenty (Mitre 10 Cup) and Auckland (Mitre 10 Cup) pages have been tidied and simplified while I have created drafts for Canterbury and North Harbour. @Kidsoljah: is going to tidyup some of the main Rugby Union pages. Then we will have examples of tidy Rugby Union pages which list the Mitre 10 Cup team/squad and Rugby Union pages with a separate Mitre 10 Cup page. Whichever is the more popular choice I am happy to implement changes to, but we need more of a consensus first please. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 13:18, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Anymore comments on this? Had another vote for separate pages on one of the merger talk pages. There seems to be a consensus for that view, and if so I'll start implementing the draft pages and making the required changes. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 20:27, 15 September 2020 (UTC)

Josh Gray (rugby union)Edit

I came across Josh Gray (rugby union) via WP:THQ#Josh Gray (rugby union) page and did a bit of minor cleaning up. Perhaps someone from this WikiProject could take a look at it and assess it? It's not a bad first effort, but the Josh Gray (rugby union)#Early sporting achievements and education section needs a bit more sourcing and probably a little rewriting to remove the WP:PUFF. Anyway, the creator might also be someone who's interested in joining this WikiProject since they just started editing and seem to be interested in the sport. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:31, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

Chronological listsEdit

Hi guys, I just discovered that List of Wales national rugby union team results is an article that exists, but unfortunately the table is in entirely the wrong order. Per WP:SALORDER, chronological lists are supposed to have the oldest entry at the top and the most recent at the bottom. Given that other such lists may exist, and I know they do for various head-to-head matchups between rugby nations, can I please remind the participants of WP:RU of the guidelines and to make efforts to correct the order of these lists where possible? – PeeJay 14:17, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

International caps in infoboxesEdit

Hi guys, just wondering whether non-cap international matches should be included in the infobox section on players. Akira Ioane and Asafo Aumua both made their 'international debuts' this weekend, but both had represented the All Blacks in no cap matches against France XV (giving them an 'All Black number') so should their repcaps be listed a 1 (for their full debut) or 2 (in the case of Ioane) or 3 (in the case of Aumua). Thanks guys. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 20:18, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

I think the previous consensus is to not count uncapped matches, mainly because of a lack of robust database of such games. The All Blacks and British and Irish Lions are a little different from most international sides in, I think, having those robust databases albeit not 3rd party ones. "Tour matches"/"non-cap matches" for BIL, All Blacks and Springboks is an area I think info boxes could better reflect but I personally cannot recall seeing a genuinely third party database of such things to reference.Skeene88 (talk) 13:59, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
I agree with Skeene88 here - it will be almost impossible to verify non-cap matches for most teams, whereas there are decent sources for full capped internationals. I'd say stick with just cap internationals for the infobox, although the subject might need revisiting during the Lions tour next year as we'll find that people will update players' records with the non-international match numbers.--Bcp67 (talk) 14:31, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
Thanks guys, I have edited both players caps to 1 and added a note to why their All Black number is out of sequence. The All Blacks statistical database is actually very good, but they seem to be the only team with such a significant stats database. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 17:04, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Major League Rugby deepdiveEdit

Hi guys, have started a deepdive on Major League Rugby player pages as large numbers have been created that do not qualify for WP:NRU and in my opinion do not qualify for WP:GNG either. I have flagged a large number having gone through all the current squads in the Western conference. Here are the discussions so far:

Tonata Lauti, Michael Baska, Lance Williams, Awara Elkington, Franco van den Berg, William Rasileka, JP Aguirre, Riekert Hattingh, Eric Duechle, Taylor Krumrei, Josh Hayden, Daniel Trierweiler, Save Totovosau, Keni Nasoqeqe, Derrick Broussard, Chris Turori, Ben Mitchell, Nathan Sylvia, Fakaʻosi Pifeleti, Aaron Mitchell, Malacchi Esdale, Taylor Howden, Cecil Garber, Robert Meeson, Valdemar Lee-Lo, Charlie Connolly, Mason Pedersen, John Ryberg, Ata Malifa, Luke White, Kelepi Fifita, Blake Rogers, Chad Gough, Jacob Finau, Sione Fangaiuiha, Zinzan Elan-Puttick, Moe Abdelmonem, Chris Schade, Kody O'Neil, Jope Motokana, Kellen Gordon (last one flagged by @SportingFlyer:)

I'll add more once I've gone through Eastern conference sides and historical players. Thanks guys. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 17:26, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

  • I don't think any of these players are notable and I appreciate you tagging them, but giving it a week to allow all of these AfDs to be resolved or relisted would be appreciated. Want to make sure none slip through the cracks. SportingFlyer T·C 18:35, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
@SportingFlyer:, that is the plan. I'm AfD any I come across that don't qualify for WP:NRU and I believe don't qualify for WP:GNG. Some may be kept as some sources are disputable, but i'm just trying to tidyup as best as possible. There are some I've found that don't qualify for WP:NRU but may just qualify for WP:GNG (specifically Sebastián Kalm, Tiaan Loots and Tomas Quinlan) but even these might be debatable. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 18:45, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Further updates from the first three eastern conference sides. Afd's:

Dylan Taikato-Simpson, Vetekina Malafu, Michael Reid, Josh Brown, Jack McLean, Matt Hughston, Jake Turnbull, Mo Katz, Kyle Rogers, Cameron Troxler, Jojo Tikoisuva, Nick Feakes, Holden Yungert, Kevin O'Connor, Moni Tongaʻuiha, John Sullivan, Devin Short, Nikola Bursic, Kevin Sullivan, Cam Falcon, Piceli Rinakama, Zach Stryffeler, Diego Maquieira. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 21:09, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Completed eastern conference and historical players I could find. Afd's:

Alex Tucci, Alex Vorster, Jack Evans, Tira Patterson, Chris Saint, Spencer Jones, Kolby Francis, Steven Ng, Martini Talapusi, Ross Deacon, Amro Gouda, Marcus Walsh, James Denise, Anthony Parry. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 12:13, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Further batch of historical players found. Afd's:

Chris Coyle, Ayron Schramm, Drew Gaffney, Alec Barton, Chad Joseph, Maximo de Achaval, Derrek Van Klein, Pita Moala, Maka Tameilau, Alex Elkins, Matias Cima, Chris Kunkel. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 18:14, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Amateur notabilityEdit

I have been thinking, we have a notability criteria that covers internationals and the professional era but what about the amateur era? My thinking would be if they have played in a pro-equivalent top level national league, they should be considered notable, similar to what they have for GAA on WP:NSPORTS. Here's a mockup of my idea.

  • Anyone who has played for:
    • A team in the amateur era (pre-1995) in a top level national competition

The list of accepted amateur competitions are (draft, please amend if you disagree):

Please let me know what you think. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 07:07, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

It'll be very difficult to find statistical information on amateur players as a lot of the statistical sites (itsrugby for example) don't list amateur players unless they were internationally capped. If there are enough sources for players to pass WP:GNG then fine, but I think more information is required to know how notable actually players playing in these competitions were (are there lots of news articles/sources about players, or are there just lists and passing mentions of players that play in these listed tournaments). For me it's a nice idea, but it'll be very difficult to source these historical players without detailed historical databases like there are in cricket for example. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 12:36, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
For English players another difficulty is that the Courage Leagues started in 1987 so the criteria would only cover the last 8 years of the amateur era. The top level competition in England for many years would have been the County Championship or later the Divisional Championship but certainly difficult to source stats on a lot of the county seasons.--Bcp67 (talk) 18:32, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
and even that's highly debatable, I would argue the merit tables and the John Player Cup were the top level competitions, and prior to 1972 there was no such thing. I think saying Courage League players are assumed to be notable is reasonable, its limited, sources like statbunker are generally reliable and often cover it and it is a direct linked precursor to the Premiership. However that coverage is patchy, so I think defaulting to only allowing ones which pass general notability on their own merits is the best course of action. The other competitions more so. We don't want more deletions of lots of articles like we are seeing with MLR where the writer made a reasonable, if mistaken, interpretation of these rules.Skeene88 (talk) 20:31, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
I was thinking with South Africa mostly in mind given they didn't play international rugby for a time due to the apartheid boycott so the Currie Cup would have been the highest profile competition most could have hoped for. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 07:57, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
With South Africa, during the height of the sporting ban from 1985–1991, according to ESPN stats, even though they didn't play any matches during that span against official test opponents, they did play six international matches in that period, including four against the NZ Cavaliers (essentially an unofficial All Blacks by a different name). I would guess those SA international players would be notable, given that the violations of the sporting ban were high-profile events. In any case, I don't think a relatively short and incomplete sporting ban for one country warrants changing the project-wide guidelines. WP:GNG ought to cover this just fine. CUA 27 (talk) 13:47, 11 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I would prefer that these players pass WP:GNG unless we can clearly demonstrate that almost all of them pass WP:GNG. SportingFlyer T·C 20:36, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Update to peer review pageEdit

Hi all, I've boldly updated your project's peer review page (Wikipedia:WikiProject Rugby union/Peer review) by updating the instructions and archiving old reviews.

The new instructions use Wikipedia's general peer review process (WP:PR) to list peer reviews. Your project's reviews are still able to be listed on your local page too.

The benefits of this change is that review requests will get seen by a wider audience and are likely to be attended to in a more timely way (many WikiProject peer reviews remain unanswered after years). The Wikipedia peer review process is also more maintained than most WikiProjects, and this may help save time for your active members.

I've done this boldly as it seems your peer review page is pretty inactive and I am working through around 90 such similar peer review pages. Please feel free to discuss below - please ping me ({{u|Tom (LT)}}) in your response.

Cheers and hope you are well, Tom (LT) (talk) 23:52, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Is this original research?Edit

Just came across List of 2019–20 Major League Rugby transfers... lots of twitter sources and I'm not sure there's a master list of these anywhere. Is this WP:OR? SportingFlyer T·C 20:16, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

I imagine the style has been copied of List of 2019–20 Pro14 transfers and similar pages. Personally I feel the twitter sources are ok but they're all incorrectly cited and a lot on there have no sources whatsoever. Not sure the league is really notable enough to have one of these though compared to Pro14, English Premiership etc. though. The most recent Major League Rugby transfers page should really be moved to a draft page until some sources are included though. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 20:51, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
Americas Rugby News do keep roster lists for all the sides on their site. But they're not always entirely accurate, and with the AfD's of the past week or two we know that they're not the most reliable of sources. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 20:57, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
It would appear the 2020–21 article was created by a sockpuppet of currently blocked User:DylanFaraci98 for creating many unsourced or undersourced articles. Yosemiter (talk) 02:44, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for bringing this to attention, have found he's created a number of rugby union pages that are almost all unsourced or have one primary source on them are tend to not be notable. On one speedy deletion nomination his reasoning for keep was 'because there is no coverage in the media and so creating this page will allow American rugby fans so coverage and for the sport to grow.' or similar. I'm not sure he understands Wikipedia's general rules tbh, or maybe he doesn't care. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 10:36, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Notability of rivalriesEdit

These articles don't appear to pass WP:NRIVALRY. Are all lists of matches between High Performance Unions inherently notable, even if they've only played a handful of times? Some examples:

@Geschichte: had PRODed some articles like this before, I'm not sure on the criteria though for what does and does not qualify as notable. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 14:27, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I think those violate WP:NOTSTATS, since what is required for WP:GNG is for reliable secondary sources to discuss the rivalry (at least in other sports) and that's not satisfied at all for any of those articles. SportingFlyer T·C 16:44, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for your input both. I've decided to put them all up for AfD. I've done them separately as each rivalry may have its own faults and merits so didn't feel bundling was appropriate. Spiderone 17:15, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
Found this old AfD, may be of relevance. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 17:46, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

2021 Rugby ToursEdit

Where can I find sources of these matches? WDM10 (talk) 08:31, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Announcement and tasks listsEdit

Hi guys, anybody else's Announcement and Tasks lists on here not updating properly? Apologies if there's an easy way round this but I can't see one and it doesn't seem to have updated for a good number of days. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 10:18, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Super Rugby NaviboxesEdit

Hi guys, following a minor disagreement with @Skeene88: over at Template:Jaguares squad, just wanted to see what the views are on these boxes. Super Rugby announce squads each season unlike European sides who more often transfer players in and out. Therefore, along with the differing times of season with European sides, players can leave these Super Rugby squads to move to Europe or elsewhere. Should these players be removed at that point from these naviboxes, or when the squad for the next Super Rugby season is announced. Naviboxes do say 'current squad' in them, but if they were announced in say the 2020 squad, that is the current squad for that side, even if they have departed. A previous discussion I had with a Super Rugby page user suggested it was the later, but this was a few years ago and people may have differing views now. I personally think the later, but am happy to follow consensus as long as players are not removed during the actual Super Rugby season. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 21:20, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Maybe have a group for players who left mid-season? You could call it "mid-season transfers" or similar. Primefac (talk) 22:01, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Rugbyfan22 for bringing to the talk page. I agree with Skeene88. The current squad should be, well, the current squad. Not current plus recently departed. I also suggest both editors involved in editing that template page would be well served by taking a break from editing that particular template until we have consensus here. CUA 27 (talk) 23:19, 1 December 2020 (UTC)
I've reverted twice already so can't again until a discussion has reached a consensus. The other suggestion I had is that for rugby sides that release 'squads' (such as Super Rugby, Currie Cup, Mitre 10 Cup and a few others) maybe their naviboxes should be changed from 'current squad' to '2020 squad' and then that is changed for each year (so when the 2021 squad is announced changed to Jaguares - 2021 squad). Interested in people's views on that. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 10:03, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
In normal years it is a moot point, the players move on at the end of the super rugby season and the new season's squads are announced quite quickly, so even if there is this previous consensus of delay I will freely admit I never spotted it. The problem with the Jaguares as it stands is that we have no idea when any new squad will be announced but we now have a large number of players and the coach at other clubs. These players, and particularly Gonzalo Quesada who is now a head coach at another club, should not be in a navibox for a club they do not play for and probably never will again, it is very confusing for even interested parties let alone the apocryphal new reader. I did use the navibox's talk page after redoing the first reverted edit which I thought was the proper place for the initial discussions. At a minimum the Jaguares navibox should be renamed 2020 squad if a consensus is reached that the players for some reason should remain in a squad list of which they are no longer part. Skeene88 (talk) 17:45, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
I'd agree with User:Skeene88 and User:CUA 27 - current squad should be current squad. Just because a club tends to announce them at a particular time does not mean players that have moved on should remain in the current squad. noq (talk) 18:26, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Issue with teamname in Template:Infobox rugby teamEdit

In Moana Pasifika, the team name is not showing up. Could somebody please fix this? WDM10 (talk) 09:15, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Concerned about the notability of this page, the team is currently not confirmed in a league as of yet and is only playing a one off game. Maybe should be redirected to 2021 Super Rugby season#Future developments until more is known. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 10:13, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
  Fixed, the blank |country= was preventing |teamname= from showing. Primefac (talk) 10:55, 3 December 2020 (UTC)
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