Wikipedia:WikiProject Rugby union/Peer review/Highlanders (rugby)

Highlanders (rugby)

This article has recently been promoted to Good Article status. I've been rewriting it over the last three months, and am hoping to get it to Featured Article status within the next few months. Any specific recommendations that will help achieve this would be greatly appreciated—including specific comments on prose and WP:MoS issues. Thanks. - Shudde ^talk 23:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Could do with a few player bios being created as there is currently more links in red than there are to current players. Not sure if this would help to move it on to FA status but it can't hurt. CorleoneSerpicoMontana (talk) 00:27, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I'd have prefered the articles just aren't linked if the article don't exits (see Crusaders (rugby)) but someone obviously disagrees with me! I will try and write articles on some of those players but many of them havn't been playing professionally very long, so may be difficult. - Shudde ^talk 00:34, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, red links aren't a bad thing and should certainly not be any impediment to Featured Article status. But I just did Keith Cameron, the first red link on the squad. --Stormie (talk) 02:52, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

p.s. "some of those players but many of them havn't been playing professionally very long" = polite way of saying that we have a terrible squad this year. :-) --Stormie (talk) 02:57, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Reckon we could do with some more images. Unfortunately I don't have any (despite having taken a camera to several Highlanders games, we always get caught up in the game and forget to take photos). I had a brief glance on Flickr but didn't spot any with a compatible license. Also, do you think anyone might object to the large amount of the article referenced to a single source (Ten Years of Super 12)? I hope not, since it's a fantastically detailed book and probably the best source I've ever seen for a Super Rugby club's history. --Stormie (talk) 03:20, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know. The source would not violate any standards for use as a reference, but I could understand why people may not be happy. Whether that would be a valid reason for objecting is another thing. I would love to have a look through SANZAR Saga - Ten Years of Super 12 and Tri-Nations Rugby which although mentioned in the bibliography, I don't have access to. Ten Years of Super 12 is not bad, but unfortunately has no index (god knows why) which actually makes it difficult to use for research! I did a search on flickr some time ago, and I may have to do what I did for Waisale Serevi and email some people asking them to release the images under a free licence. Also there are no appropriate fair use images that I can find (if you can think of any, let me know). Thanks for your comments. - Shudde ^talk 04:57, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above comments about images and redlinks - FWIW< my photo of the outside of Carisbrook (as on the carisbrook article is probably usable. I'd also say that the text could do with a bit of a proofread for grammar, punctuation and the like (it's pretty good, but it's not perfect enough for FA status, if that's what's being aimed at). I've made a start, but only on the first third or so of the article - the rest still needs work. One stylistic point is that the history section reads very much like a data-dump of results - it probably needs the be broken up a little to avoid the "won this, lost that, won the other" sort of style, though exactly how, I'm not sure. BTW, I added in the intro that some home games are played in Invercargill - I can't remember where else they are played (Oamaru? Queenstown?), but that should also be added at the top. A further minor quibble also mentioned above (not a biggie, but probably worth mentioning) is that the majority of the references are from just one source - it might be useful to get a wider range of sources in there - is there nothing by the likes of Ron Palenski that has info? BTW, is it worth adding in WDL records against each of the other Super franchise teams in the records section? Grutness...wha? 07:00, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The only other book that focuses on Super rugby generally (that I know of) is the SANZAR book which I don't have access to at the moment. Ron Palenski seems to focus on All Blacks topics unfortunately. I can prob find more web links and refs, but they aren't completely desirable either because they can go dead etc. Yeah it does need a copy-edit, hopefully someone can help me with that. - Shudde ^talk 07:27, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I think you have most of the facts sorted, just the grammar to be sorted now. Try and make it more fluidic in the prose, less detached. --Bob (talk) 01:30, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs)

Hey Shudde, some comments from a relatively quick run through...

• "...are a New Zealand rugby union team based in Dunedin which competes in..." plural to singular in the first sentence...
  •  Done
• "franchise" could be explained or wikilinked as a minimum - for FA this article needs to be accessible to all, not just rugby enthusiasts.
  • Yeah not sure how best to do this. Franchise means, in this case, a team that represents several provinces. The statement "The franchise represents the Otago, North Otago, and Southland rugby unions" should hopefully be enough? Please let me know what more I can/should say about this. - Shudde ^talk 11:05, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Well I think you may be right. Let's leave it and see if FAC throws up anything about this. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
• "...from the fact that the..." why not just "from the Scottish emigrants who founded..."?
  •  Done
• "...winning only three matches." out of how many? context is useful for the non-experts again.
  •  Done
• "... the following year were against knocked out by the Crusaders..." - English?
  •  Done
• ".... in their semi-final..." - there were two teams so it's just the semi isn't it?
  • No—there are two semi-finals, the winners of each then play in the final.
    • Cool. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
• "One former Highlander, Anton Oliver, has played 127 games for the franchise,..." so? Is he the record appearance holder, if so state it!
  •  Done
• "Their highest career..." - this reads badly after the previous sentence on big appearance players. Go back to saying "Highlanders highest ..."
  • agreed and  Done
• "(see Super 14 franchise areas)" total no-no for me. The whole point of clever wikilinking is to avoid "(see ....)" in prose sections. Find a better way of linking out to this.
  •  Done
• John Leslie links to a dab page.
  •  Done
• Gordon Hunter links to a lecturer in London, the right Gordon Hunter?
  •  Done
• Correctly link dates per WP:DATE, so "March 3 1996" should be "March 3, 1996".
  • Done I think. Please double check. - Shudde ^talk 11:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
• Northern Transvaal links to the region, not the team.
  •  Done
• If Gavin Lawless is a Super 12 record holder, why doesn't he have an article?
  • In all honesty, probably because hes a South African, we need more damn South African editors! If he was a Kiwi no doubt there would be an article. I will see what I can do. - Shudde ^talk 11:15, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
  • I had a bit of a Google and to be honest didn't have a lot of luck. I'm assuming that his record-setting performance in that 1997 Super 12 game was quite late in his career (I found a reference to him playing in the Currie Cup final in 1991 [1]) and it's a bit hard to find info of that age online. Really needs a South African editor with a rugby almanac or something I think. I could put together a crude stub mentioning his records but I don't even know for instance what years he played from and to, whether he was ever selected as a Springbok, etc. --Stormie (talk) 00:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
• Tony Gilbert links to a US footballer. The right one?
  •  Done
• "After defeating the Bulls at Loftus Versfeld they needed the Queensland Reds to fail to get a bonus point win, and not win by 14 points or more in order to stay in the top four. Queensland were defeated by the Brumbies 23–16 and the Highlanders finished fourth, thus qualifying for the semi-finals." - little difficult to fathom the maths here...
  • Simplified it. - Shudde ^talk 11:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
• Wikilink the opposition teams on their first mention.
  •  Done
• 1999 Super 12 final doesn't have an article?!
  • No it doesn't. I'll get around to it one day, the link wasn't added by me, but not a priority at the moment. - Shudde ^talk 11:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
• "Although the Highlanders scored a try to Isitolo Maka with three minutes remaining, the Crusaders won 24–19." - citation needed!
  •  Done
• "NPC" - what is this?
  •  Done
• "achieved a win over all four South African teams" - "achieved wins over..."?
  • Is this not correct? - Shudde ^talk 11:31, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
    • I think both are correct but prefer (personal opinion warning) the second as they achieved a number of wins... either way! The Rambling Man (talk) 19:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
• Link Hamilton.
  •  Done
• "The Highlanders had gone three seasons, 2000, 2001 and 2002..." - rewrite as nicer prose.
• Greg Cooper links to a US radio personality. The right one?
  •  Done
• "Thus.." - no! Just flow the conclusive sentence...
  •  Done
• " The expanded competition was renamed the Super 14. The Highlanders continued under Cooper in 2006. After losing their first match of 2006 to the Crusaders, they then won their next three. After only won two of their last six games, they finished the season ranked ninth.[38] The 2007 ended with a similar result to 2006. The Highlanders again finished ninth on the table, and worst of the New Zealand teams.[39] They finished the season with five wins and eight losses from their thirteen matches.[40] Coach Greg Cooper left the franchise to take up the assistant coaches position with the Blues following the 2007 season.[41] The coach for the 2008 season, Glenn Moore, was appointed August 28 2007.[42]" - too choppy for me. Try to improve the flow.
• "The colours of the Highlanders encompasses the provincial colours of North Otago, Otago, and Southland; yellow, blue and maroon." needs citation.
  • Again, WP:WHEN - Shudde ^talk 11:33, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
• "..able to protect 24 players .." - why italics and explain.
  •  Done
• All but first sentence of "Franchise area" section is uncited...
  • Yeah this is a case of "Subject-specific common knowledge" as per WP:WHEN; all the New Zealand team's operate this way and it's very common knowledge here. For example which competitions the various provinces compete in, and how the draft system works. - Shudde ^talk 06:19, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Ahah. But common knowledge isn't really applicable for a FA in my opinion. This article should be accessible to all, I'm quite a rugby union fan (and played for twelve years) and I felt it needed explanation. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
      • I added a couple more references anyway, for which competitions the provinces compete in. --Stormie (talk) 23:48, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
• Consider making results table sortable.
  •  Done
• Also, think about merging the Super 12 and Super 14 results table. Should be relatively self-explanatory.
  • Can understand why you wouldn't mind that, but Crusaders (rugby) is formatted the same as this; so would prefer just to leave it. - Shudde ^talk 06:25, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
• "Former first five-eighth ..." - great alliteration but nasty reading. And rugby jargon. Is his position that important? It may well be. Can we think of a decent reword?
  • This is the same as Fly-half, and is the common NZ term for it. It's been linked in it's first instance ("after Highlanders first five-eighth Tony Brown"). - Shudde ^talk 06:19, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
• Notable players- some are redlinked and some aren't linked at all. If they're notable I'd suggest a stub (at the very least) should exist for each and every one of them.
  • Completely agree—will get on it. - Shudde ^talk 06:20, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

That's it for now. I hope some of the comments have been helpful, don't hesitate to get in touch with me for further comments or clarification of what I written so far. Good luck and happy editing! The Rambling Man (talk) 18:28, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

• I think you've got most of it sussed. There still seems to be a tiny bit of an issue with making the article clear and easy to understand to the non-NZ-rugby-union expert but it might not be an issue at FAC (although I still feel it is...). Good work! Let me know if you need more and when you take it to FAC! The Rambling Man (talk) 19:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
  • One final point, the name of the article. This may be picky but I'd opt for Highlanders (rugby union team) since that's actually what this is about. If you agree, you should move the article there and check for any double redirects. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:15, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
    • Nah I moved it to where it is now. I think having team name (rugby) is best. If people were to search for Highlanders the most likely other thing they would add to the search string would be "rugby" so I think it's fine as is. - Shudde ^talk 23:35, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
      • I'm not sure. You could create a redirect called Highlanders (rugby) but really this article is about Highlanders, the rugby union team, not Highlanders, the rugby. But once again I'm not going to push it. It'll probably be discussed at the FAC. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:16, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
        • A lot of the Super Rugby franchises have been moved and moved and moved again, unfortunately I don't think we've ever nailed down a consistent naming scheme. I still recall the pain of fixing triple and quadruple redirects after some of the Brumbies (rugby) moves. Anyway we currently seem to have a mix of "(rugby)", "(rugby franchise)" and "(Super rugby franchise)". --Stormie (talk) 22:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
          • I still think (rugby) is preferable. This is simply for disambiguation purposes. It's not supposed to be a perfect, or precise description of the contents of the article. Certainly if their was another (notable) Highlanders related rugby article then a more descriptive identifier would be necessary. - Shudde ^talk 06:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I have a couple of problems with the "Players and coaches of note" section. Firstly, the usage of symbols - I assume that the 12px|Captain means captain and that means injured, but this is not clear and would be better addressed by using text. Is the injured status possibly WP:OR? It's not referenced. Secondly, I believe that the "Out for 2011" and "In for 2011" place too much emphasis on recent events, in contravention of WP:RECENT. These type of events should be in an article called something along the lines of 2011 Highlanders season. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 11:54, 17 December 2010 (UTC)