Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)

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Frequently asked questions (FAQ)
Relation to general notability guideline
Q1: How is this guideline related to the general notability guideline?
A1: The topic-specific notability guidelines described on this page do not replace the general notability guideline. They are intended only to stop an article from being quickly deleted when there is very strong reason to believe that significant, independent, non-routine, non-promotional secondary coverage from reliable sources are available, given sufficient time to locate them.[1][2][3][4] Wikipedia's standard for including an article about a given person is not based on whether or not he/she has attained certain achievements, but on whether or not the person has received appropriate coverage in reliable sources, in accordance with the general notability guideline. Also refer to Wikipedia's basic guidance on the notability of people for additional information on evaluating notability.
Q2: If a sports figure meets the criteria specified in a sports-specific notability guideline, does this mean he/she does not have to meet the general notability guideline?
A2: No, the article must still eventually provide sources indicating that the subject meets the general notability guideline. Although the criteria for a given sport should be chosen to be a very reliable predictor of the availability of appropriate secondary coverage from reliable sources, there can be exceptions. For contemporary persons, given a reasonable amount of time to locate appropriate sources, the general notability guideline should be met in order for an article to meet Wikipedia's standards for inclusion. (For subjects in the past where it is more difficult to locate sources, it may be necessary to evaluate the subject's likely notability based on other persons of the same time period with similar characteristics.)
Q3: If a sports figure does not meet the criteria specified in a sports-specific notability guideline, does this mean he/she does not meet Wikipedia's notability standards?
A3: No, it does not mean this—if the subject meets the general notability guideline, then he/she meets Wikipedia's standards for having an article in Wikipedia, even if he/she does not meet the criteria for the appropriate sports-specific notability guideline. The sports-specific notability guidelines are not intended to set a higher bar for inclusion in Wikipedia: they are meant to provide some buffer time to locate appropriate reliable sources when, based on rules of thumb, it is highly likely that these sources exist.
Q4: What is considered a "reasonable amount of time" to uncover appropriate sources?
A4: There is no fixed rule, as it may differ in each specific case. Generally, though, since there is no fixed schedule to complete Wikipedia articles, given a reasonable expectation that sources can be found, Wikipedia editors have been very liberal in allowing for adequate time, particularly for cases where English language sources are difficult to find. For a contemporary sports figure in a sport that is regularly covered by national media in English, less leeway may be given.
Q5: The second sentence in the guideline says "The article must provide reliable sources showing that the subject meets the general notability guideline or the sport specific criteria set forth below." Does this mean that the general notability guideline doesn't have to be met?
A5: No; as per Q1 and Q2, eventually sources must be provided showing that the general notability guideline is met. This sentence is just emphasizing that the article must always cite reliable sources to support a claim of meeting Wikipedia's notability standards, whether it is the criteria set by the sports-specific notability guidelines, or the general notability guideline.[5]
Proposing revisions to Notability (sports)
Q6: I want to create a new sports-specific notability guideline or revise an existing one. What approach should I take?
A6: Consider what criteria that, if met, nearly 100% guarantees the sports figure will have significant, independent, non-routine, non-promotional secondary coverage from reliable sources. Test your proposed criteria by trying to find persons who meet them but do not have appropriate secondary coverage. It's best to keep your criteria fairly conservative, since for most contemporary persons, establishing notability via the general notability guideline is straightforward enough and the additional buffer time provided by a sports-specific notability guideline isn't needed, so trying to draw a more liberal line isn't worth the effort.

Many discussions on rules of thumb start with, "This league/championship is important," or "This sport is popular in country X." While these arguments provide indirect evidence, a much better way to reach an agreement is to double-check if everyone meeting the proposed criteria has appropriate sources meeting the general notability guideline. For example, for an individual championship, you can list everyone who has won the championship and, for each person, the corresponding sources that show he/she meets Wikipedia's standards for inclusion.

Note the "nutshell summary" and the "Basic criteria" section are high-level descriptions of the type of criteria used by each sport. This does not mean that any criteria that fit these descriptions are suitable. You must demonstrate that the proposed criteria are effective as a way to determine if a subject meets the general notability guideline.

Q7: What constitutes "non-routine" secondary coverage for sports?
A7: Routine news coverage of sporting events, such as descriptions of what occurred, is not considered to be sufficient basis for an article, following Wikipedia's policy of not being a place for routine news coverage. There should be significant coverage directly related to the subject. In addition to Wikipedia's guidance on reliable sources, also see Wikipedia's guidance on biographies of living persons for more information.
Q8: But these athletes have won championship X; surely that makes them notable?
A8: For better or worse, discussions in Wikipedia use the term "notable" as a shorthand for "meets Wikipedia's standards for inclusion in the encyclopedia". As a result, there are many subjects that can meet the everyday meaning of notable, yet fail to meet Wikipedia's standards for having an article.
References


Proposal: Scrap the "one appearance" rule in favor of two mundane appearances or one unusual/remarkable appearance.Edit

Good faith proposal, clearly not going to gain consensus. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:03, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Much electronic ink has been spilled over the question of whether a particular outing by a particular player constitutes an appearance in a game, with the end result being that we have many articles on players in various sports who are known only by the fact that some record somewhere exists of them having appeared on the field (or court, or diamond) a single time in professional play, with no other information to be found. I propose that we tighten this up somewhat, by adoption of something along the lines of the following rule across all sports currently requiring a single appearance in team play:

  1. Players of team sports must generally have appeared in at least two professional-level games in their sport, unless an appearance in a single match was unusual or remarkable for one of the following reasons:
    1. The player's performance in their single match was noted by a reliable source to have been unusually good.
    2. The player is noted by a reliable source to have suffered a significant injury during play.
    3. The player is noted by a reliable source to have engaged in a significant altercation or similar incident during play, or resulting from their participation in the game.
    4. The player's performance in the single game constitutes a record in the sport, whether good or bad.
    5. The game itself had unusual characteristics, such as being a playoff game, or a game deciding the team's advance to the playoffs.

I'm sure a few more odd situations can be thought up, but basically I am proposing that notability premised on a single appearance should be the exception rather than the rule. bd2412 T 04:10, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

  • Oppose it's far too overcomplicated - someone appearing at the top level of their sport will almost certainly have been written about (therefore becoming "encyclopaedic"). We currently have the remedy of deleting if the article still fails to meet WP:GNG, but I still don't see any problem with shifting the presumption of notability to inclusion if the player has appeared in the top flight, and there's really no substantive difference between one game or two. SportingFlyer T·C 04:31, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose It would be difficult to qualify what is significant injury/altercation among editors. It tighten up is needed then we could propose "Players of team sports must generally have appeared in at least three professional-level games in their sport, in regardless of play time involved in the games." To note, it is a little difficult to find independent reliable sources talk about the subject directly for many of the team sport players, such as netball, ice hockey players, volleyball players, handball players" especially when they just made pro or signed by professionally teams in in their respective fields. CASSIOPEIA(talk) 04:53, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose Seems to me that changing 1 to 2 achieves nothing. The main issue is whether the criteria should be based on appearances at all, rather than performance. At some level (eg international) appearance probably is some measure of notability but playing in, for instance, the fourth division of the English football league probably isn't. Nigej (talk) 05:40, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose If it isn't broken, don't fix it. Plus the qualifiers seem far too vague and open to debate. The current system is clear with no room for misinterpretation. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 06:03, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose Fix the the individual sport(s) where one game is too low of a bar, don't make a blanket rule on sports where it's not a problem.—Bagumba (talk) 06:52, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose as above. This proposal shows a striking ignorance of various sports. GiantSnowman 08:41, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
    GiantSnowman, every time I see you insulting someone with whom you disagree, I will ask you to stop it. Levivich 15:55, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
@Levivich: whomst have I insulted? I've commented on the content, not the contributor. GiantSnowman 16:06, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
GiantSnowman, when you say someone's proposal "shows a striking ignorance" of something, you are commenting on the contributor, not on the content. Specifically, you are commenting on the state of another editor's knowledge ("striking ignorance"). Levivich 16:33, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
@Levivich: I respectfully disagree and ask you to look at the overwhelming response to the proposal... GiantSnowman 16:36, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
Nevertheless, your assessment of my "ignorance" is incorrect. What is incorrect is the proposition that any team sport exists for which a single unremarkable appearance in a single unremarkable game should confer encyclopedic notability. The sport for which an individual appearance would be proportionally most significant based on the number of games per season would likely be American football, but even in that sport unremarkable play in a single unremarkable game does not compare to the achievements needed to demonstrate notability in other fields. bd2412 T 16:50, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose per C of E. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 08:47, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Seems rather muddle-headed that someone could be deemed notable for not playing a game, rather than playing in it. Johnlp (talk) 10:36, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose: essentially all this does is change the criteria from one match to two matches. All the "reasons" given would be covered by the GNG, which overrules this SNG anyway. Harrias talk 10:47, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose I’d be much more inclined to support proposals that raise the bar for WHICH leagues this applies to rather than adding additional criteria to what “one game” means. For the very top level sports “one game” is absolutely true and any exceptions (like players whose careers were before good record keeping existed) can be deleted anyway per GNG. Rikster2 (talk) 14:50, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment I agree that as proposed, this is far too complicated a rule, but I do suggest that as there is more awareness of how much the current "one game" criteria allows in, in terms of athletes from low-level leagues or the like, that some type of additional filtering on the "one game" rule should be thought up. For example, perhaps having a list of the top-tier leagues where this would apply to. --Masem (t) 16:09, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
    I think we were moving towards something useful along these lines with FOOTY but the discussion died out because gathering data that a change will improve on status quo is hard. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:20, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose I'll oppose this as those following rules just seem too complicated for the system that we want in place. If we are trying to tighten the system than CASSIOPEIA idea actually gives a better option. But as of right now, this proposal seems a bit complicated as of right now for the average Wikipedian to follow. HawkAussie (talk) 21:55, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Major League RugbyEdit

There have been a fair few rugby stubs created at NPP recently for Major League Rugby players. I noticed one and nominated it for deletion - it was just kept here mostly on the basis WP:NRU was satisfied. Mr. Gordon plays in Major League Rugby, and WP:NRU states that rugby players who have played in a fully professional league are notable. Major League Rugby (MLR) was added to the list at some point in 2018 and I cannot find any discussion of this on any talk page.

I don't think the league is actually "fully professional." There are a number of citations saying the league is fully professional but it's difficult to determine what this means. This article shows the New York team isn't fully professional, this says Dallas will have 10 to 12 full time players, and and this article shows salaries are paid on a "gameday" basis. The salary cap is also on average US$10,000 a player, which is below poverty level. The league needs to be removed from the fully professional leagues list.

Furthermore, in spite of the AfD, Mr. Gordon clearly fails WP:GNG. I'm not here to litigate the AfD again, but the coverage of him is all blogs, primary websites, or in one case, some sort of an advertising firm. Even if the league is found to be fully professional the coverage of players isn't enough to satisfy WP:GNG. There have been a number of stubs created on this league all with a similar level of coverage, and even if the league is found to be fully pro, I'd like a consensus before I go ahead and start purging these. Obviously, if a player meets WP:GNG, they are free to have an article on this site. SportingFlyer T·C 05:20, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

I have never been a fan of using "fully professional league" as a substitute for GNG, however I do understand why it is used for NFOOTY (language search limitations and the most popular sport in the world). For rugby league and union, it probably should have been vetted. I too could find no results for player pay, but the league seems to be operating at that level based on international player recruitment (older notable players) and apparently operating well into the red (Houston stated a $12M operating loss). That being said, it is rugby in the US. If a player is not covered in independent media, they do not meet GNG when NRU is not a substitute for GNG. This news search on the player in question, all of 7 hits, is not exactly promising. And the AfD !voting based on an an unvetted league added to a list is troubling in my opinion. Yosemiter (talk) 05:45, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
It works for football because as you said football sort of needs that catch-all because of the cultural differences in coverage amongst different leagues. Other sports choose leagues based on whether press coverage from simply playing in the league will be enough to pass WP:GNG. That's not the case here. SportingFlyer T·C 05:55, 5 November 2019 (UTC)
I'm not sure talking about "fully professional leagues" is helpful when it comes to rugby union - it is a much less-followed sport than football and even professional players playing for top-level clubs will often have little coverage, and as such I don't think playing for a "fully professional" club creates an assumption of notability in the same way it does for football. In terms of the other articles you mention, I find it sad that someone would spend their free time "purging" wikipedia, but if there are articles which you don't think meet the GNG then you should probably just go ahead and nominate them without trying to pre-empt the result beforehand. ElAhrairah inspect damageberate 23:11, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
@Elahrairah: The problem I'm running into is that even though these articles fail WP:GNG, they're being kept at AfD because users are citing the WP:NRU guideline. It's only an issue because many of them are new articles and I've been running into them at NPP. SportingFlyer T·C 02:40, 18 November 2019 (UTC)
I see. Well if your problem is specifically with NRU, then the rugby union wikiproject would be the best place to resolve it. The people contributing there are likely to have the best understanding of the topic. ElAhrairah inspect damageberate 23:37, 19 November 2019 (UTC)
I think it was good that it was removed for now. However, it may perhaps be helpful to have a statement at the top of Wikipedia:WikiProject Rugby union/Notability criteria stating "...of known fully professional leagues via consensus of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Rugby union" or something to that extent in order to prevent un-vetted additions (similar to ice hockey's "the ice hockey league assessment maintained by the Ice Hockey WikiProject" statement). It should at least lead to having discussions for the cusp nations top leagues for presumed notability instead of erroneously creating an SNG that folks will simply state "passes SNG" (WP:VAGUEWAVES in that direction seemed to be at play in that Kellen Gordon AfD for at least 3 of the 6 Keep !votes and another with an unexpanded WP:NEXIST !vote).

SportingFlyer, since you removed them from the list, perhaps it would be a good idea to begin a discussion at the wikiproject talk page? It may not be that active, but at least it can be shown that we need to assess all additions there. Yosemiter (talk) 22:10, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

This should not have been removed from the list without discussion. The Russian professional league has similar pay and degree of professionalism and has been kept on the list. I have reinstated until that discussion takes place and agrees. Rpsmith1988 19:40, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

@Rpsmith1988: Please take it to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Rugby union#Major League Rugby to discuss the merits of your changes. Please note, your changes are effectively creating a Notability Guideline without consensus or discussion. Having a "similar pay and degree of professionalism" has nothing to do with Wikipedia's General Notability Guidelines. It should be based on general coverage to the subject at large in independent reliable media, not how much a subject gets paid. Thank you, Yosemiter (talk) 20:24, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

My changes are not creating anything. They were removed without discussion having been included for several years. The defeatist should therefore be that they remain until there is consensus that they don’t meet the standard. The level of media coverage of the US leagues is significantly higher than the Russian league. Possibly due to a language bias but as this is the English Wikipedia I’m not sure that matters. This is a single user seeking to remove MLR from this list and until there is consensus from other members of the project it should remain. Rpsmith1988 07:40, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

  • As I demonstrated in the initial post of the thread, the league was added to the list in 2018 without any discussion or source. The football version of the list requires every single league in the list to be sourced. As I've demonstrated above, this league is not in fact fully professional, and as I've twice demonstrated at AfD, the league does not receive enough media coverage to otherwise be eligible for a notability guideline which presumes its players are notable. This league has not been properly vetted for notability guidelines, so by removing the league from the list I'm ultimately removing unsourced information from wikipedia, which I am within my rights to do. SportingFlyer T·C 08:03, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
  • Comment - (reposted from this discussion at the Rugby Union project) looks to be a fully professional league. Teams have professional managerial structure, the league has a U.S. TV deal (CBS), and a salary cap structure (see this article). In addition, ESPN lists them as a professional major league team, along with the other teams on the NRU list. Articles such as this, this, this article which shows that the teams are building stadiums, this, and this also indicate it is a professional league. I think that the discussion should be on the project page, however, but any discussion to resolve this is a good thing. I do agree with Rpsmith1988 that the league should not have been unilaterally removed after having existed without any protest for a year and a half. I know it was added without discussion, but since, no one at the project has objected to it being there. Onel5969 TT me 11:40, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
  • As I've noted above, unlike the football leagues list, the rugby league list is completely unsourced. We mandate the WP:NFOOTY league list be completely sourced - I was reverted just last week for adding a missing league to the not fully professional list (went back and sourced it quickly.) See WP:USI. And, as I've clearly demonstrated above, the league is not fully professional. We have defined fully professional on Wikipedia to mean everyone on the team makes their living from the game, as opposed to semi-professional, where players have to work other jobs. This should be enforced consistently across sport. Some teams have full time professionals, but average salary for the U.S. Rugby League is below the poverty line. Per the sources, the league does not show up at all for me at espn.com/rugby (I'm not in the U.S., though). Lastwordonrugby.com is a blog and not necessarily a RS, the Patriot Ledger does not indicate what kind of stadium is being built, for instance if it's temporary - and furthermore, we have many teams in leagues that aren't considered fully professional that have built their own stadiums. Finally, the fully professional league article averaged less than a view per day from the time the league was added to September of this year, and I was the next edit - it's not as if other editors have made intermediate edits to my removal. As to whether it's a "major professional league" attendance is worse than the lowest minor league baseball leagues, and your Guardian article notes the salary cap is "dramatically low in comparison to wage bills in Super Rugby, the Gallagher Premiership and the Top 14."
  • Finally, players in this league frequently do not pass WP:GNG. Stubs of sportspeople who fail WP:GNG frustrates a number of users on the project and is the reason why the standards are so high over at WikiProject Football. Why are standards lower in other sports? Simply because of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS? SportingFlyer T·C 12:11, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

New SNGs needed for Rugby union and leagueEdit

Full disclosure, I do not follow any rugby thoroughly enough to decide this myself, but I am going to make the suggestion anyways that Wikiproject do so.

Both SNGs for rugby union and league have the use of the term "fully professional" in a criterion. The only other team-based SNG to use this is NFOOTY, which is at a least reasonable assumption as the most media covered sport in the world and they vet the leagues with sources as SportingFlyer explained. Every other SNG has depreciated this phrase as outdated and has instead made list of league that meet the intention of NSPORTS: Applicable policies and guidelines: All information included in Wikipedia, including articles about sports, must be verifiable. In addition, the subjects of standalone articles should meet the General Notability Guideline. The guideline on this page provides bright-line guidance to enable editors to determine quickly if a subject is likely to meet the General Notability Guideline. Information about living persons must meet the more stringent requirements for those types of articles. It would appear the governing Wikiproject for the guideline did not get WP:LOCALCONSENSUS (or even discussed internally) for additions, which may not meet GNG as required.

This is even more true when in reference to the over saturated sports markets in North America, where the top league in a certain sports might be the 20th most media covered league. As an example, PRO Rugby (which is one of the "fully professional" league that had been unilaterally added to the Notability Guideline) got very little media coverage during the season, and it failed. So how could we possible assume that any player in that league received WP:SIGCOV when the teams themselves barely did? Using WP:VAGUEWAVES in an AfD towards a guideline is frowned upon, but it is even worse if it is done when the guideline was never vetted (not a single source was discussed in this AfD).

I propose that the projects take a good look at the leagues like all the other projects have done to determine not what the player is paid, but the that the player has received significant depth of coverage. Yosemiter (talk) 16:09, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

Change to WP:NBOXEdit

Long story short, the WP:NBOX women's title are outdated. I brought this up to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Boxing and it had some support with no one disagreeing. Women's boxing has grown a lot in the last few years. Specifically, Claressa Shields and Katie Taylor have become household names in the fight world. Well, the classic men's sanctioning bodies have taken notice and are now awarding titles. Shields nor Taylor have ever fought for one of the titles listed in WP:NBOX. Nor has Nicola Adams. Nor has Amanda Serrano. Nor has Heather Hardy. Basically, the 5 current biggest fighters in women's boxing have never fought for the NBOX titles listed and have fought for titles of the classic men's sanctioning bodies.

I think we should make a cutoff of 2017 - 5 years after boxing became part of the Olympics and after 2 Olympic cycles as well as the year Shields and Taylor fought for titles.

It should be noted this is not as much adding as it is correcting. It represents the men's organizations superseding the old women's - so just as important is adding is putting a stop to the old ones.

So the update to WP:NBOX part 1 would read:

  1. Have fought for a world title (e.g. super, regular/full, interim) for one of the following current or historical major sanctioning bodies:

Thoughts? RonSigPi (talk) 00:21, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

For men: the IBU (early 20th century) world titles should be included. Anyone who has fought for the EBU European title, British Empire/Commonwealth title, or British title should also be included, as should national champions from other significant boxing nations - e.g. France, Germany. Any boxers satisfying any of these will have easily received enough coverage to satisfy WP:GNG if that is anyone's overriding concern, but for older boxers it may sometimes be hard to find from a Google search. --Michig (talk) 07:16, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Notability for golfers in second tier tournamentsEdit

Need your input on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Golf#Notability_for_golfers_in_second_tier_tournaments Thanks. AngusWOOF (barksniff) 21:06, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

Team participation questionEdit

I think it's well established here that being listed on a team roster isn't enough to pass an applicable SNG, but playing for the team does (many, but not all sports here have SNGs like this). But what if a player is on the team, and is scheduled to play a match that would lead to them passing the SNG, but because the other team withdraws, the team in question is given the victory by the organiser as if they had played and won. Would this player pass the SNG? IffyChat -- 09:51, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Statistically, I doubt if said player would be credited with appearing in a game. All players that meet SNG are expected to meet GNG anyways (Wikipedia:Notability (sports)/FAQ#Q2). Personally, I'd just find like 3 sources of significant coverage and cite them in a stub, at a minimum, instead of relying on a technicality.—Bagumba (talk) 12:34, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
In short: No. The individual would need to have actually played to pass the SNG. Lets say it's a league match of some description. Team X withdrew from their final match against Team Y. The governing body would/should award the points to Team Y, but no player is actually credited with appearing in the match. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 14:12, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
This in turn makes me wonder whether the Scotland players who turned up to play Estonia in 1996 received caps for the game? Number 57 16:24, 6 January 2020 (UTC)
I'm no football expert, but I assume they did as the match at least started, albeit "abandoned after three seconds". Yesterday's T20I cricket match between India and Sri Lanka had the coin toss, before it started raining. All 22 players get a cap, as the toss took place in this instance. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 18:29, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Change to baseball notability guidelineEdit

This edit made today modified a paragraph in the baseball notability guideline from:

Players and other figures who do not meet the criteria above are not presumed to meet Wikipedia's standards for notability. To establish that one of these is notable, the article must cite published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject. Fan sites and blogs are generally not regarded as reliable sources, and team sites are generally not regarded as independent of the subject. Although statistics sites may be reliable sources, they are not sufficient by themselves to establish notability.[1]

References

  1. ^ Articles that are not sourced to published material providing significant coverage of the subject (beyond just statistics sites) may be nominated for deletion.

to:

Players and other figures who do not meet the criteria above are not presumed to meet Wikipedia's standards for notability under NBASE. To establish that one of these is notable, the article must meet the General Notability Guideline or another subject specific notability guideline. Fan sites and blogs are generally not regarded as reliable sources, and team sites are generally not regarded as independent of the subject. Although statistics sites may be reliable sources, they are not sufficient by themselves to establish notability.[1]

References

  1. ^ Articles that are not sourced or sourceable to published material providing significant coverage of the subject (beyond just statistics sites) may be nominated for deletion.

I have marked the changed passages using underlines. I disagree with adding "or sourceable" to the footnote; onus remains on the article creator to ensure that adequate sources are present.

I also suggest combining the first two sentences to improve concision as follows: Notability for players and other figures who do not meet the criteria above must be established by the general notability guideline or another subject-specific notability guideline.

Feedback is welcome. isaacl (talk) 02:21, 21 January 2020 (UTC)

I have notified the baseball WikiProject. isaacl (talk) 02:25, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
The old language had the conjunctive use of "[1] intellectually independent, and [2] independent of the subject." The former injected a wholly vague and subjective criteria not based in policy. The revised language is an improvement in this regard. 02:36, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
  • One comment, regarding "team sites". If we are talking about MLB.com, it is important to know that they are editorially independent of the MLB franchises themselves. MLB.comm is a reliable source. – Muboshgu (talk) 03:00, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
    • Since there have been no changes related to this aspect, perhaps we could defer discussion on it for now? isaacl (talk) 03:10, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
      • The team sites are interesting, as they employ beat writers who I believe have independent editorial rights, but they're thrown in with videos and other media that might not be completely independent. But every MLB team also (at least until recently, not sure if that's still the case given the newspaper industry) is covered by a local, entirely independent beat writer. MILB sites are much more of an issue, though. SportingFlyer T·C 04:50, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
  • I've reverted the change the IP editor made back to the original text above. I disagree with the vague and subjective criteria - the "intellectually independent" just seems to be a synonym for "secondary." Perhaps it can be removed. SportingFlyer T·C 04:50, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
    • How about my proposed sentence? isaacl (talk) 04:57, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
      • I don't mind it in theory, but I disagree about adding "another sport SNG" as SNGs are subservient to GNG anyways. I just don't see why there needs to be a change at all but if we have to make a change, I like yours best. SportingFlyer T·C 05:23, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
        • You may have a person who qualifies under another subject-specific notability guideline such as the politician guideline or the academics guideline. I didn't make the original change, but personally I think it's more direct to just say that other guidelines may apply, if the baseball one doesn't, rather than try to partially restate the notability policy. isaacl (talk) 05:36, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
        • A point: SNGs are not any weaker than the GNG in terms of evaluating notability - a topic can meet the GNG or an SNG to have presumed notability for a standalone article. SNGs cannot be created that are less strict than the GNG, and in time, we expected that presumed notability to be shown true if coming from an SNG. Hence it makes sense to remind an editor that is evaluating a baseball athlete that they should look at the GNG as well in case the SNG's criteria fails for that person. --Masem (t) 06:32, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
          • SNGs cannot be created that are less strict than the GNG Oh in a perfect world yes, though there are probably a few hundred thousand permastubs that would disagree with you, and if you try to take that seven-word article on the guy who won the 1936 under water thumb wrestling gold medal to AfD you're gonna cause a riot. GMGtalk 14:21, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
          • SNGs cannot be created that are less strict than the GNG: Not sure if it's less strict or not, but WP:NPROF specifically says that it doesn't matter if GNG is not met if subject meets NPROF.—Bagumba (talk) 16:07, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
            • I really think this should be a footnote in NPROF, because I feel like I say this so often it could be a standard template, but the exception to GNG in NPROF was simply added one day in 2015 with no discussion at all, much less an RfC on whether an SNG should or even can override the most long standing of our core content policies. That it was added by a user who claims to be a a professor themselves only makes that a touch worse. GMGtalk 18:19, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
        • Can you tell me where it says that "SNGs are subservient to GNG anyways". WP:N is the surely the top of the tree, GNG and SNG sit underneath that. Nigej (talk) 06:39, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
          • Can we defer discussion on this general point? It's been discussed to death here, on the notability talk page, and at the village pump. Suffice it to say that there are many different viewpoints regarding the subject-specific guidelines in general. (The deference of the sports-specific guidelines, on the other hand, has been explicitly stated from the start.) isaacl (talk) 07:43, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
            • It wasn't me that brought up the GNG issue. I also don't understand the "The deference of the sports-specific guidelines, on the other hand, has been explicitly stated from the start" when it says at the start that it can meet either. Nigej (talk) 07:54, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
  • The whole paragraph seems redundant to Wikipedia:Notability (sports)#Applicable policies and guidelines about relying on GNG. GNG covers independent sources, and WP:BLOGS is just a part of verifiability. Seems like this can just be deleted.—Bagumba (talk) 06:25, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
    • I think at a minimum the information on team sites and stats sites is important to note in the context of baseball. A lot of newcomers try to use these uncritically as appropriate sources to determine if the standards of having an article have been met. isaacl (talk) 07:31, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
  • Some thoughts below. Generally I'm fine with the changes I made as IP, as revised by Isaac, and think it is all an improvement and clearer and more in line with the rest of the page.
1. "or sourceable" - doesn't that make sense to include, given that wp:before requires a search by the nom for what is sourceable, even if it is not sourced in the article yet? Anyway - why do we even need that sentence? If it made sense to include, it could be included in all individual sports. But we don't need it, because the deletion criteria are covered elsewhere. I guess I would include the phrase if we include the sentence, or better yet just cut out the sentence completely.
2. I agree with Isaac that the reliable source conversation is not impacted by the above changes, so while it is a good conversation to have it should not distract us from this conversation and getting back to (generally) the version as revised by Isaac.
3. Some athletes actually play multiple sports, and may be notable under one guideline before another. What EJGreen said. Separately, I agree with Masem. 2604:2000:E010:1100:1D06:C657:E7B:7CFE (talk) 09:29, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
  • I think the proposed new language is better than the existing language. I think combining the first two sentences, as isaacl proposes above at the top of this thread, is even better still. Levivich 17:29, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
    I like the proposed changes. "Intellectually independent" sounds rather pretentious. I think we might want to consider broadening the criteria slightly, as there are several minor league players who might not meet the letter of the SNG but still meet GNG. ~EDDY (talk/contribs)~ 18:09, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
    I'm not sure any minor league players should be notable and strongly oppose broadening any criteria. Baseball probably does the best job (behind possibly Aussie Rules, which has a very clear played majors notable/didn't play majors not notable as a footy player guideline) of having articles on players who are actually notable because they're baseball players, in part because we have Minnesota Twins minor league players. Obviously there will be some exceptions, either players who are front page of Sports Illustrated-level nationally known or are notable for other reasons, but baseball seems to be mostly working at the moment. SportingFlyer T·C 20:48, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
    There are many minor league players who are notable under GNG, as has been reflected in many AfDs. But such ballplayers need not be covered by the SNG, as they are covered by GNG - and that is sufficient. 2604:2000:E010:1100:30F3:9E93:17BD:5014 (talk) 21:47, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
    WP:GNG is simply our proxy for determining whether someone is notable enough to be included in the encyclopaedia. However, many minor leaguers will receive coverage local to their team or hometown just because they are minor league ballplayers, but that does not mean they are notable baseball players. SportingFlyer T·C 23:46, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
    I'm not talking about a local guy who receives a puff piece from his hometown player. I'm talking about a AA or AAA prospect who gets covered in major papers or who had a notable college career. It seems that the current idea is to redirect to "NY Mets minor league player" or whatnot, but some of these guys merit spinoff articles. Not all though. ~EDDY (talk/contribs)~ 16:08, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
    I agree with SportingFlyer and have written my longer explanation for why here. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 16:58, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
  • I support "Notability for players and other figures who do not meet the criteria above must be established by the general notability guideline or another subject-specific notability guideline." Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:34, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
  • I support Barkeep49's wording above. No need to restate what the GNG says, just refer to it. CThomas3 (talk) 02:55, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
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