Wikipedia talk:In the news

Active discussions

Amazon PharmacyEdit

I've never nominated anything for ITN previously, but took note of today's launch of Amazon Pharmacy, which, for better or worse, is likely to result a major disruption of the retail pharmacy sector. It's already in the top five trending Google searches today (ranked No. 3, here). I leave it to ITN veterans to determine whether or not this would be appropriate for inclusion on ITN. Cbl62 (talk) 00:37, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Cbl62, you have to nominate it at WP:ITN/C, not here. It could gain consensus for posting. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:43, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Muboshgu. As this was announced only today, I was planning to monitor the news coverage over the next couple days and decide whether it would be suitable for either ITN or DYK. If someone else wants to jump in sooner and nominate it, feel free to do so. Cbl62 (talk) 00:49, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Criteria for tropical cyclone nominationsEdit

I think we should discuss setting some kind of minimum criteria for tropical cyclone nominations given the significant influx of premature nominations and noms for storms that didn't have a significant impact as of late. NoahTalk 03:55, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Due to climate change, hurricanes have become the new normal. A storm like Hurricane Wilma occurring today would not get nominated. Count Iblis (talk) 07:25, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
It's usually best to take it on a case-by-case basis. If something is premature or not notable enough it won't get posted. I'm guilty of premature nominations, as are many of us, but discouraging discussions generally isn't ideal. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 07:46, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
Agree with Cyclonebiskit. I nominated Iota when it did because it was a C5. Cat 5s are still really rare, and only 1-2 happen per year in the Atlantic; only a handful happen worldwide per year. The C5 Iota already affected land. So no, a Wilma would still be nominated, and discouraging cyclone nominations is counter-productive. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 15:12, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
As Count Iblis says, the vast majority of these storms are mundane and are really not noteworthy. We have dozens of such Atlantic hurricanes (for example) a year, and we really ought not to be posting half a dozen of them per year when all the news really amounts to is "people living in an area which is hit every year by dozens of hurricanes is hit by a hurricane and some stuff broke and some people died". I agree with a case-by-case basis (what makes a hurricane not routine or mundane? It depends...) and no more premature nominations. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 15:33, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
With Cat 5s becoming more common nowadays, Cat 5s are no longer classified as "rare". I'll oppose ITNs solely for Cat 5 hurricanes as they are not notable.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 07:58, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose documenting criteria as instruction creep. If there is a "problem" here it's the tendency at ITN to post death toll stories and to !vote count. Someone posting "Support - this is significant" doesn't make it significant and if there are compelling arguments to the contrary those ought carry more weight. Another important barometer would be identifying if the story is being featured by news media (vs just reposting wire stories in the hopes that search engines will drive impressions to their pages). Cyclones are just one type of disaster stub we post, and it could easily stand in for terrorist attacks, or plane crashes or prison riots. --LaserLegs (talk) 16:14, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose any limit You posted the hurricane hitting Greece, Cyclone Ianos, which only caused 5 deaths. Then you posted Typhoon Molave (2020) when it was at 12 deaths. Now you are saying we can't post this until it plateaus 50 deaths. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 16:51, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
    • Posting those was an error unless that was something outstanding or different about them. The routine hurricanes which are in no way remotely interesting should be dismissed. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 17:11, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
      • I remembered the Typhoon Molave ITN candidate discussion which I chose not to join in. If Typhoon Molave were to occur today, I would oppose.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 17:17, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I believe nominations should only start when it reaches notability (i.e. when it has become catastrophic), not when it is forecast to become catastrophic.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 17:09, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
    • As for the notability itself, I agree that since cyclones have become more frequent, more intense and more damaging than ever before, the standard for a cyclone to be notable should also be set higher. Otherwise ITN will be nothing but cyclones.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 17:13, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
      • So this is true of many things. Fires and tornadoes in the United States, flooding in China and India ... these are routine weather events and are hardly notable --LaserLegs (talk) 17:45, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
        • Indeed. Iota can nick off.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 17:52, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
          • Wait, @The Rambling Man:, a hurricane hitting Greece at peak intensity is very very rare. Molave's premature posting - I don't mind if you have objections to. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 19:22, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
            • AS I SAID A FEW TIMES (!!!) if a weather event is remarkable, rare, unusual, seriously record-breaking, FINE, but otherwise, these routine events are like mass shootings in the US. No longer noteworthy. Let the Wikiproject write tomes about the progress and eventualities, but seriously, STOP NOMINATING THEM. Unless they are somehow groundbreaking. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 22:56, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
              • Actually, the Greece hurricane isn't so rare. I might oppose that news too. Cyclones are becoming more common in Greece with warmer sea temps, etc. **cough** Global warming **cough**--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 06:09, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose any criteria as hurricanes can have very little death count (Cross fingers for every one), but have high impact in the entire world. Elijahandskip (talk) 19:31, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment/Oppose (This is a second posting, but I am stating something as the Lead Coordinator of the Current Event WikiProject.) For the Portal:Current events, any hurricane that gains international attention (Basically any hurricane/tropical storm that makes landfall anywhere) will be posted in the Portal. I know the portal has a lot less requirements for items to be posted, however, having criteria would be bad. No one can put a price on human lives lost. {Also, a storm could kill 0 people but do like a trillion USD in damage.} Criteria might sound great, but would be a burden of technicalities in the future. (Lead Coordinator of WikiProject of Current Events) Elijahandskip (talk) 19:31, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
    • Best to assess each hurricane/typhoon on a case-by-case basis. Checking if they have made groundbreaking feats. Could always be something other than merely ††† and $$$--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 20:01, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Perhaps when the Atlantic hurricane and the Pacific typhoon seasons "start" (first major storm to make landfall with damage), these can be ongoing until the season seems to be over (may be a few weeks after the last major storm to know for sure), with blurbs allowed for those storms with highly significant damage (100+ some deaths) while those go on. --Masem (t) 19:33, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
    • @Masem: It is very rare for storms to get more than 100 deaths in the Atlantic and Pacific, and even the Western Pacific. Most notable storms caused more than 20 deaths. They go on to cause several billion in damage. Also, I do not support the season article for ongoing, due to the original procedure being fine. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 19:51, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
      • Okay, maybe 100 is too high, but the idea is that during hurricane/typhoon seasons, these storms make landfall, cause death and destruction routinely in the same period each year. Clearly there's a line that too few deaths we're likely not going to post an individual, but to avoid anyone calling out bias (US vs Asia), it would make sense to just have both seasons ongoing - generally a period of a few months each year - and when the storm is truly major with deaths over some MINIMUMDEATH number, we'd actually consider posting that, while other storms that do still cause deaths are at least practically included via the ongoing line. I'd also consider even if this minimum death toll wasn't reached (but still caused deaths) storms that made landfall at high strengths like Cat 5 hurricanes would still be a possible blurb. The only issue I would see are the editors that seem aggressive wanting to remove anything in Ongoing if there's no "news" in that after a day or so, since these storms may be staggered out by weeks. --Masem (t) 20:01, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
        • Unlike the North Atlantic where there are "hurricane seasons", the western Pacific doesn't have a similar analogous term. Pacific typhoon seasons are 365 (or 366) days long. The 2019 season "started" on January 1st. Business picks up from May to December though, so if you guys are cool with a de facto ITNR ongoing item for 7 months in a year that's on you guys. Howard the Duck (talk) 20:41, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose to it all. No to ongoing (absurd, half the year??). No to numerical criteria for weather events: it's CONTEXTUAL guys, how many times? If we've posted half a dozen storms with limited interest, don't post another: c.f. mass shootings in the US. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 22:54, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Comment: I think ITNR can have an entry for any (natural) disaster with 100+ deaths. Disasters with less can still be nominated, but those with 100+ can get a speedrun at ITNC. 2601:602:9200:1310:E8C8:76F2:1FA3:A77C (talk) 23:05, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

I think that's a reasonable idea. If a natural disaster exceeds a certain number (e.g. 200) then it gets INTR and quality is the only issue. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:14, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
Counting bodies isn't as easy as counting votes. Casualties in some awful disasters may never be 100% accounted for, and even if the body count approaches the WP:ITNMINUMDEATHS of choice, it could be stale already by then. Howard the Duck (talk) 23:32, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
But a major part of this issue is assessing the impact of the recurring weather events. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:54, 18 November 2020 (UTC)
We should be a bit careful, or at least recognize that there's also the flooding period in China, India and other Asia countries that frequently can kill in the thousands but over a period of weeks or months, making it hard to promote a single event. Not saying that we shouldn't post these, but we should be aware of what is the tipping point as well as to avoid a flood here, a flood there, etc. I also know from the past we do want to be careful of "grouping" unrelated disasters that may otherwise be seemingly related. A flood in China is probably not caused by the same source as a flood in India though we'd be tempted to treat that as one because of their shared geography. --Masem (t) 01:21, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure ALL floods in China and India with over 100 deaths that had acceptable articles passed ITN. 2601:602:9200:1310:41D1:D48E:77AA:4AE3 (talk) 02:17, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
Single event floods yes, but the flood season in China often kills hundreds over a series of several months, but each event is small on its own. We've had problems when people nominate a "long-running disaster" of this sort in the past because most of that has happened in the past. --Masem (t) 14:49, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose ITN/R (and you should start a separate discussion if that's what you want) based on death toll. Killing 100 people in a densely populated developing country with lax enforcement of weak building codes is tragic but not notable. There was a comment above about "contextual" that's what's needed, not numerical limits. --LaserLegs (talk) 02:31, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment/Question we posted three typhoons in the Philippines in the last 30 days (the last one just five days ago) with no fanfare, why the sudden collective loss of shit? We post irrelevant disaster stubs all the time. Are we suddenly tired of hearing about tropical storms? --LaserLegs (talk) 02:40, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
    • Essentially yes, too many cyclone ITNs. Deaths from cyclones occur too often year in year out. I'm raising the bar for cyclone ITNs to at least 100 deaths.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 06:06, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

Comment - The biggest problem we have here with all weather related disasters, is a lack of knowledge over how relevant the impact of a disaster is on a certain area. For example, I would probabally be laughed at if I tried to submit Cyclone Tino for ITN, despite it being significant to Tuvalu and the World Bank having to provide $6 million dollars for the recovery of Tuvalu. This is why I proposed the creation of a Weather Wikiproject and articles such as Floods in Fiji or Floods in China earlier this year, as the information is out there but we have to find it and bring it into Wiki.Jason Rees (talk) 02:49, 19 November 2020 (UTC)

@Jason Rees and CyclonicallyDeranged: If you've read local Nicaraguan and Honduran news, they literally say that they're "in the hands of God." Those people are suffering very very badly, and this storm is probably one of the most impactful their since Mitch in 1998. More than 41 people are dead, 40 are missing. However, per CD, I have to wait for 50 deaths. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 13:46, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
@Destroyeraa: the entire world is in the hands of God. Find a better argument than this. I didn't say 50, I said 100.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 15:20, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
Btw, Mitch claimed more than 10,000 which is 200 times more than Iota.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 17:15, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
  • November had 4 election blurbs, one of it in ongoing, but no one's raising a stink about that... Howard the Duck (talk) 14:15, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
    See WP:ITNR. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 14:26, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I believe our criteria needs to be as follows: A cyclone is considered generally worth posting on ITN if it meets the following criteria: 1) Reliable news sources are covering the cyclone and its aftermath to sufficient depth 2) The article is of sufficient quality for main page posting (generally comprehensive, well referenced) and 3) There is consensus in a discussion at WP:ITNC that criteria 1 and 2 have been met. What does everyone think about that proposal? --Jayron32 16:21, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
    That's just a rehash of ITNC, replacing "item" with "cyclone". The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 16:25, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
    The issue is that's true of nearly every cyclone/hurricane/typhoon, landfall or not (in both that these get coverage in news and as a credit to the WPians in this area, these are nearly always decent articles). The last few months have shown that allowing every single storm like this would be a problem. We'd be flooding ITN with storms that may have been of concern due to possible threat but no real damage. We need to be a bit more selective and recognize just as we're not a news ticker , we're also not the Weather Channel as well. --Masem (t) 16:27, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
    Yes, but we haven't posted every storm. You're just inventing strawmen to knock down now. --Jayron32 18:25, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
    Criteria as how you've put it would make about 10 cyclones in the last month worth posting on ITN (groan).--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 16:36, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
    No, we didn't post 10 in the past month. So I don't know where you get that from. --Jayron32 18:27, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
    I got that from your proposed criteria.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 18:32, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
    Where are the 10 discussions that had consensus at WP:ITNC? If you can't produce those, then you're inventing windmills to tilt at. --Jayron32 18:44, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
    @Jayron32: What I am meant to gauge at is that about 10 cyclones in the past month had significant coverage from a gazillion reliable sources (per your criterion 1). Then since cyclone articles are always created on Wikipedia, criterion 2 would pass easily. Then anyone nominating the cyclone to ITN would easily pass criterion 3 since criterion 1 and criterion 2 are already met. Then ITN will be polluted with cyclones. Big problem. Absolutely no windmills tilted at here.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 05:49, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
    Yes, but my proposal is the existing criteria for posting anything. We've been working under that criteria for like, a decade. And in that time, with the technical possibility of having 10 cyclones per month (by your estimate), we have done so (checks math... carry the two... divide by pi... take the inverse...) exactly... hold on... this can't be right... No, the math checks out... We've done so 0 times. It's never happened; it's never even come close to happening. So, you've invented a fictional problem, which has never happened, which nothing in our experience many years of Wikipedia, and in all of the past data would let someone predict would happen, and now your trying to create new rules to prevent something which has never happened, and which is likely never to happen. That's just silly. --Jayron32 12:50, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
    Then create a criteria that eliminates the possibility for something to happen. I am not interested in what has happened. If the criteria were to go on, the possibility for the unprecedented may become "precedented". So this criteria should not go on.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 14:04, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
    Why? Because you say there is a possibility for it to happen? I can write many things. It doesn't make them possible. I can write "there's a possibility a 10000 ton weight will drop on my head right... now!" Just by claiming it doesn't make it so. You've not provided any evidence such a thing will happen outside of your own vehement assertion that it will. We don't make arbitrary rules merely to cover the vehement assertions of random people. No matter how vehement those assertions are. --Jayron32 15:39, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
    There is plenty of evidence in 2020 that such things can happen. The only vehement assertion in this little discussion is your "10000 tonnes onto your head". With global warming quite evident and cyclones getting bigger and meaner, what I am suggesting might happen is quite likely, so watch out. With La Nina already declared in September, which increases cyclone activity in many regions of the world with a high population, the imminent threat is already there.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 20:32, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
    No one is saying the cyclones aren't happening. What we are saying is that we don't need a policy to prevent 10 cyclone stories from hitting the main page in one month because it has never happened that 10 cyclone stories were posted on the main page in one month. You've literally invented a problem that doesn't exist. --Jayron32 19:32, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
    Actually 5 cyclone "newses" happened in the past month which in my opinion is way too many. So I think something should be done anyway.--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 19:39, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
    It probability didn't go to 10 cyclones this time around because I hypothesise that no one in planet Earth really bothered to nominate all 10 cyclones to ITN candidate. So it is human beings' so-called "I can't be bothered" way of doing things that ultimately led to less nominations than, in theory, what could have been...--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 14:12, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
    Yes indeed we're in proper weather fanboy territory here. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 16:37, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
    The thing is that that past 5 cyclones - Molave, Vamco, Eta, and now Iota had more than 40 deaths. Goni had 26 but was the strongest typhoon at landfall in the world. I agree it's a bit too much, but many of these storms are notable in the world, not US-centric, and have significant coverage. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 17:25, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
    They're notable enough for articles, but certainly not notable enough for ITN. Things like this which happen dozens of times a year (and that's the Atlantic season only) means the level of significance needs to be REALLY high for it to be posted. A few dozen killed across several countries is really nothing more than you'd expect for these regular weather patterns. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 22:22, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
    Yes because there is enough space in Wikipedia to document all the notable cyclones into articles. Meanwhile, ITN has only four slots to document current news across all realms of existence. Notability is set much higher for that to be on ITN. The current news could talk about the recent murder case near my local area and Wikipedia may report it. Let's put this news on ITN. Oh wait, a gazillion murders unfortunately occur anywhere in the world (over 400,000 in a year according to Wikipedia).--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 06:01, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
    As I would have expected TRM to correctly point out by now, that’s not an issue with posting too many cyclones, that’s an issue with articles in other areas not getting updated and nominated sufficiently often. Bzweebl (talkcontribs) 17:44, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
  • One thing I've noticed is that a number of these nominations got kicked off because a single editor jumped the gun, as in the case of Iota. I know that The Rambling Man commented on how we all said to wait on that storm. We could cut down on such premature submissions by reaching consensus (perhaps even unanimous consensus?) on a storm's talk page before making any ITN submissions for tropical cyclones. We certainly should not be making submissions for storms that have yet to make landfall. The only exception I might see to that part would be storms beating all-time intensity records for their respective basin (e.g. an Atlantic hurricane surpassing Wilma). TornadoLGS (talk) 22:19, 19 November 2020 (UTC)
    • @TornadoLGS: I'm open to that, though some severe storms caused widespread damage without making landfall. Goni is an exception - it was arguably one of the most powerful typhoons on record by wind speed, so that will probably be a Wilma/Patricia case. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 00:09, 20 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I came here because I saw TRM's comment on Iota's nomination that - it's barely interesting to have either of them on there, let alone to puff up the blurb. This happens every year without fail. It's not news, it's "life". For Eta/Iota, there's never been a season with two major hurricanes hitting Central America, let alone the same country, let alone both of them being Category 4 hurricanes, and let alone them being within two weeks of each other. If such an event starts being a yearly occurrence, then sure, that argument could hold weight, but not with how things stand. I think we need to look at these events with context. A simple Category 5 hurricane would not be news. A Cat 5 landfall would potentially - Dorian was posted last year when it became one of only three Cat 5 hurricanes to hit the Bahamas. These aren't just some arbitrary designation. A Cat 5 is the highest of a five category scale, meaning they're among the strongest storms on the planet. Regarding a minimum number of deaths, I suppose that could work, especially if it was applied to weather events worldwide, however some countries have worse infrastructure and are more prone to higher numbers of deaths. Floods in India regularly kill dozens to hundreds of people, sometimes from a single storm, sometimes from the monsoon season. ♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 15:38, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
    • Context says too many hurricanes lately and too many hurricane ITNs lately, and the fact two hurricanes touching the same region within a short time very much confirms that. Moving on...--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 17:09, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
      • The point here is that unless these regular weather events (and as we can all see, we get two dozen Atlantic hurricanes per season) rise to exceptional compared with the "regular" hurricanes, we shouldn't be supporting their posting. In particular, there are 1,500 people per day dying in the US of Covid, there's some context needed really. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 16:12, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
  • I never knew there were so many editors on Wikipedia with natural disasters in their usernames.--WaltCip-(talk) 14:59, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Introducing minimum time before postingEdit

Some users in a recent discussion on an ITN nomination have raised concerns that sometimes decisions on posting blurbs are speedily made without taking into account the time differences, thus practically depriving many users of the right to actively participate in discussions and share their thoughts. In this context, a user suggested introduction of minimum time of discussion before posting. I find this suggestion very sound and would like to propose introducing minimum time of 8 hours before posting non-ITNR nominations (this guarantees that people from different time zones could join while awake). For ITNR nominations, there is really no need to wait if the key articles are of sufficient quality. You are welcome with your thoughts on this proposal. -- Calidum 18:25, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

This is an ITN "PEREN" style proposal. Has been suggested multiple times in the past and shot down. I will say that the admin that does the posting needs to be 100% responsible here and thus must be a good judge if the timing is appropriate on a clear SNOW support-for-posting including article quality. If they flat out ignore that (eg someone posts a weakly support Trump-based story at 11pm ET - dead of night in Europe) - simply because they thought there was SNOW for it, that's a problem. With Maradona, considering this was when most of the English-speaking world was awake (roughly 10am ET - 3-5pm in Europe), and the figure was predominate in this area of the world (both sides of the pond AND both hemispheres), AND with the article in as excellent shape as it was, this was a very low-risk posting. --Masem (t) 18:42, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
We had this exact discussion a couple of months ago (Wikipedia_talk:In_the_news/Archive_77#Introducing_minimum_time_before_posting) and 8 hours was suggested there too, with no consensus.-- P-K3 (talk) 19:13, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
Actually 8 hours I think is still not long enough...--CyclonicallyDeranged (talk) 19:31, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose any arbitrary minimum discussion time. We can and do pull postings where consensus changes, I've been involved in such things personally. We can't accommodate everyone who theoretically might post at any given time; people who work odd shifts, for example. We shouldn't artificially restrict this- and if there are exceptions to it, that would render this rule meaningless. 331dot (talk) 21:34, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose as I did last time. Also can I add: LMFAO you fucking jagoffs literally shit your pants screaming about bias and minimum posting times when a US supreme court justice died weeks before a contentious election but we got a soccer player blurbed in 6 minutes and closed in under an hour? Next time any of you jokers wants to bitch about "bias" you can take that big steaming bowl of shit and just fucking eat it. WP:MARADONA is a thing now. You built that. --LaserLegs (talk) 23:28, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
    Cheerio. It's universally recognised that "soccer" is the world's most popular sport and that Maradona was arguably the best player ever at that sport, so the posting was spot on. You'll note that no-one has made any serious context-based argument against the posting, just yelled a lot and used oddities like "jagoffs" (is that the same as jog off?) to complain about it. Enjoy your time out. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:31, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
    Well how could we, the nomination was closed in just over an hour. --LaserLegs (talk) 23:37, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
    Re-open it without the hysteria? Give a good reason why it shouldn't be posted as a blurb without resorting to "BLAH BLAH BLAH WELL THIS JUDGE WASN'T POSTED SO WHY SHOULD THE GREATEST SOCCER PLAYER OF ALL TIME BE POSTED?" arguments? The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:41, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
    Fair enough --LaserLegs (talk) 23:43, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose but be open to change. US Supreme Court judges? Fascinating for one microcosm of the globe. Maradona? Universally known. It should be recognised that some individuals have international impact (World Cup, playing in Europe etc) and some individuals have local impact (US Supreme Court judges). It should also be recognised that Maradona (for example) was almost universally lauded as the greatest exponent of the world's most popular sport. A US Supreme Court judge is hardly likely to get that kind of acclamation. And finally, this is still English language Wikipedia, not American Wikipedia, so soccer beats US judges hands down on every occasion for "news that people are looking for". Maradona's death is main page headline news across the known universe. So to the point here, if an article is deemed newsworthy, strongly, post it if consensus applies, but if after consensus changes (because, for instance, America wakes up and decides they've never heard of Maradona) then use WP:COMMONSENSE and reconsider. Just because a discussion is closed, it doesn't mean for a second it can't be re-opened. In this case, it was helpful to stop wasting any more time on the nom because it was a cast iron post blurb with a decent article. In other cases, like supreme court judges it might be cast iron for the US, but the rest of the world may see it differently and that needs to be taken into account, post-posting if necessary. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:40, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
    Totally agree, RBGs death was main page headline news across the known universe. Erecting the requisite wall of text now --LaserLegs (talk) 23:38, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
    I'll get a container for your tears. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:40, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose WP:NOTBUREAUCRACY. However, Maradona poster Amakuru may want to comment on their earlier perspective post-RBG about minimum times for blurbs "likely to attract opposition".—Bagumba (talk) 00:51, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
    Bagumba thanks for the ping. I suppose ultimately, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. In the case of RBG although she ultimately remained posted, there was significant and, I would say, predictable opposition as well. For Maradona, there hasn't been. My suggestion was for a rule if thumb that could be IARd if appropriate. And while there's clearly no appetite here for a written rule, I would still suggest that it's prudent to give it a bit of time in most cases. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 01:31, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose While I'm sure examples exist, the fraction "number of quick posts people bitch about that should not have been posted anyways/number of quick posts people bitch about" is infinitesimally close to zero. This whole kerfuffle is why article quality should be the primary concern. It's just more of the same bullshit where people are personally upset that things they aren't interested in get posted on the main page. --Jayron32 01:01, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Support can't we do something like an hour? 30 minutes? Just enough time for people to casually see it? I see an instance where something happens that is of interest to a niche crowd, 7-10 of them rush here to support and uninvolved editors don't even get a chance to notice the nomination before it's been posted. Christ, a person could be actively reading ITNC and missed Maradona it was posted so fast. Yes it held up upon further reflection, but that doesn't mean the process was sound. We're always saying "ITN is not a ticker." Why do we need to post so quickly? GreatCaesarsGhost 13:08, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
We don't need a hard and fast bureaucratic, arbitrary rule to address such a situation. I don't know if the Maradona case was inappropriately posted or not(I wasn't involved with it) but that can be discussed without an actual rule. There may be some rare cases where an event might be quickly posted, such as Queen Elizabeth passing.(hope it's not soon) 331dot (talk) 13:17, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Comment: I was one of those who queried the rapid posting of Maradona, but even if we had a minimum time rule it would have been justified to invoke WP:IAR for someone who is arguably the greatest ever player in the world's most popular sport, and received unanimous support for a blurb at ITN/C. I would have been more comfortable if the nomination had been there for an hour and received more !votes before posting, but I don't think its an egregious enough case to require implementing new rules, per WP:CREEP. On a more general basis, I do think it's a good idea that more debatable cases get left up for long enough that users in multiple time zones can comment. Eight hours is not necessarily sufficient for that, 12 or 24 would be better choices. But it's better to leave this up to admin discretion on the strength of support (not just vote counting) rather than specifying a particular time period. Otherwise we'll be introducing all sorts of perverse incentives, such as premature nominations just to start the clock ticking. Modest Genius talk 14:50, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Support - same as last time: #1, it ensures everyone in the world has an opportunity to participate. #2, it ensures everything that's posted has been in the news for at least one full news cycle (24hrs+), helping prevent the newsticker problem. IAR exceptions could continue to be made as always. I'd support this as a requirement or an encouragement, and I'd support any time period as better than none. This time I'll add: I'd support a broader-range discussion RFC maybe at the pump to check in/reconfirm the purpose of ITN and whether ITN is fulfilling that purpose with the way things work now, broadly speaking. I see the minimum time problem as just one among several concerns. Levivich harass/hound 05:19, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

ITNR: Blurbs for the FIFA 100Edit

Closing POINTY nomination. Since neither the OP or anyone else actually thinks everyone in the FIFA 100 should be ITN/R, this is a waste of time. P-K3 (talk) 23:56, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Since we can post in 6 minutes and snow close in 1 hour the routine death of an old footballer, I suggest we just ITN/R the entire FIFA 100 to avoid wasting even 6 minutes in the future. --LaserLegs (talk) 23:42, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

This is the wrong location. You should try WT:ITNR. Cheers. Oh, and we didn't post Johan Cruyff who I think was in the top five, so I think you're deliberately wasting all of our time on this fruitless endeavour. I suggest you stop it and do something else productive instead? The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:45, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
WT:ITNR is no more, it redirects here. Didn't you get the memo? --LaserLegs (talk) 23:46, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
No I did not. So then oppose this pointed nomination which will doubtless be a complete waste of time. Well played. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:51, 25 November 2020 (UTC)
And indeed, someone needs to update the boilerplate at the top of the page to ensure people know this is where to come to make pointed ITNR suggestions because I'm not seeing that right now in the instructions? The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 23:54, 25 November 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

WT:ITNR redirecting hereEdit

Wait, what happened to WT:ITNR? Why does that long-established page now redirect here? That seems a very bad idea... Modest Genius talk 14:53, 26 November 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:In_the_news/Archive_76#Redirect_WT:ITNR_to_WT:ITN. Unanimous support, but rather lightly attended. Seems kind of pointless to me. P-K3 (talk) 15:09, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Ironically the "light" attendance is probably the problem. WT:ITNR use to regularly get zero pageviews per day, so for more eyes on ITNR nominations and removals (which can be controversial, as we all know), it was deemed reasonable to host those debates here which gets about 80 times the traffic. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 16:04, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
There probably aren't too many reasons why you'd want to keep them separate. It's not as if there are ITN/R "specialists", who would want to watchlist that page and ignore all the other guff that goes on this talk page. It's a bit like at DYK, where all talk pages within the project redirect to the single page WT:DYK.  — Amakuru (talk) 17:07, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
I think some of us are singing from the same hymn sheet, but I'd be interested to know why Modest Genius thinks this is "a very bad idea"? The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 22:14, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
Return to the project page "In the news".