Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 June 25

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June 25

The Yanks are coming

Yankee tells me that when an American uses the word Yankee or Yank, they are referring to someone from the North, sometimes quite negatively. So how did the song Over There, with it's chorus line of "The Yanks are coming", become so accepted in U.S. culture? The article on the song says nothing about it being divisive, or only talking about people from the North. HiLo48 (talk) 04:00, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Different context. And there's an old saying that goes something like... to a foreigner, a Yankee is an American. To a southern American, a Yankee is a northerner. To a northerner, a Yankee is a New Englander. And so on, down to a Vermont farmer or some such. Keep in mind that the song "Yankee Doodle" mocks the British term for Americans and wears it like a badge. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:36, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

George M. Cohan's lyrics were framed as a reassuring, confident message to the beleaguered British of 1917. In British slang, all Americans were "Yanks" and all Germans were "Huns", who are also mentioned in the song. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:20, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Ah, that makes sense. It's actually the Pommy meaning of the word that's being used. How considerate of Cohan to think of his audience in that way. HiLo48 (talk) 05:28, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Although his lyrics may seem a little bit stilted and trite a century later, George M. Cohan had his pulse on the popular culture of the day, and was a major pioneer in the creation of popular musical theater. His success was enormous. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:52, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Oh, his work certainly impresses me. HiLo48 (talk) 06:19, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Especially if you're a Hawks supporter.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:01, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

That's a reference that will bypass many here. They would recognise the Sydney Swans theme song too. HiLo48 (talk) 00:46, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

It's all explained in the article. Strangely, most of the AFL team songs are ripoffs of American - specifically American - popular songs of bygone eras. Except for Geelong, which uses the "Toreador Song" from Bizet's Carmen; Brisbane Lions use La Marseillaise; and Fremantle allegedly uses the Russian folk song The Song of the Volga Boatmen, but I've never detected it. Also, Adelaide uses the US Marines' Hymn, but that in turn is based on "The Gendarmes' Duet" from Geneviève de Brabant by Jacques Offenbach, another Frenchy. So, a bunch of American, French and Russian songs, for the Australian Football League. I feel there's something wrong here. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:49, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, there's only one Australian song, right? They can't all use it. --Trovatore (talk) 20:51, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Oh yes, that's right. Australia is so culturally impoverished and musically degenerate that we've only ever produced one song. It must be true; you read it on Wikipedia. </sarcasm>.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:57, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

We used to have more, but we stopped singing them when Rolf turned out to be a paedophile. HiLo48 (talk) 23:17, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

I thought the Pies' song was English, but have now discovered it's American too. HiLo48 (talk) 23:20, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

"Down Under" and "Kookaburra". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:27, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Cohan's impact on Broadway was enormous. If you've never seen the 1942 film Yankee Doodle Dandy, you should, sometime. While it takes liberties with the facts (as biopics tend to do), the staging of Cohan's work is outstanding, and Jimmy Cagney's performance deservedly won the Oscar. It was also very timely, in the context of Pearl Harbor and the beginning of American involvement in the War. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:26, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

The words "ruthless" and "ruth"

The term "ruthless" is used rather commonly. It is pretty much an "everyday" word. Is there any particular reason, then, why the word "ruth" is rarely, if ever, used? Wiktionary labels it archaic, rare, and obsolete. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 13:22, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

There is no particular reason. While "ruth" was used somewhat in the 1200's, "ruthless" was used more often and continued to be used. Language changes quickly. Words are introduced and then forgotten constantly. Sometimes it can be humorous, such as a mispronunciation of the word "disk" turning into a new word "dis" meaning "to disrespect." Sometimes it is a purposeful change, such as "gay" changing from "happy" to "homosexual." Sometimes, as with ruth, it is an introduction of a word from another language. You don't have to know Mandarin to know that "tofu" means. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 14:07, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

... mispronunciation of the word "disk"?? surely not in this case.... Martinevans123 (talk) 14:16, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

(ec)"Ruthless" is kind of the opposite of "rueful".[1] The prefix "dis-" has nothing to do with disks. It means "apart from".[2] "Disk" comes from "discus".[3] "Gay" originally meant "joyful", but evolved to mean "showy" and/or "promiscuous" well before it narrowed to homosexual.[4] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:20, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

My reference to "dis" was from the early 80s. In LA, KDAY played rap. They primarily played west-coast. A short-lived popular song had the phrase "she dis'd me a miss." Once that was on KDAY's rotation, we were all saying "you dis'd me." Then, about 10 years later, everyone was absolutely certain that "dis" was short for "disrespect." However, I think it sounds funny to say "she disrespected me a miss." 209.149.113.5 (talk) 14:59, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

"Dis" in that way is short for "disrespect" or "dismiss".[5] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:02, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, etymonline is not infallible, and if 209's story is correct, it's not implausible that they might have missed it. I don't really follow the proposed derivation, though. What was "disk" as a transitive verb supposed to mean? Did it have something to do with the disks the DJs were always scratching up on their turntables? --Trovatore (talk) 17:56, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Update on this: I got the following note on my talk page from 209, or from someone using the same IP address Homer, did you write your stuff, or was it a different Homer?:

I think I know what you were referring to on our talk page. One of the nurses here is an ex-Marine from California. He has told us many times that there was a song about a guy going to the enlisted club and being disked by a girl. I was a Marine also, but in South Carolina. I know what it means to disk. On the shooting range, if you miss the target completely, you get disked. That means that the person at the target end waves a disk on a stick to indicate that you missed. So, if I were disk you, it means that I'm telling you that you failed completely. It isn't exactly the same as disrespecting someone, but is similar. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 11:34, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

So, not impossible I guess. And if this was the way it happened note rare correct use of indicative in an "if" clause in the past then it's understandable that the story has been lost. But I can't say I'm convinced. --Trovatore (talk) 19:02, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Digression: I'm kind of concerned about the phrase "person at the target end" in the above. Everything I know about shooting safety says there should be no one at the target end, at least when "the line is hot". I thought I'd better point it out explicitly so it didn't percolate into people's unconscious unexamined. Does anyone know of this practice, and I assume if so, it's only done when the line is cold? --Trovatore (talk) 19:25, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

I think you must mean "exceptionally short-lived"? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:02, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

The article Unpaired word may be of interest. Deor (talk) 15:19, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Dis- derives originally from the Latin word for "two". The other word is spelt "disc" over here, which reveals its origin rather more clearly. 92.8.181.22 (talk) 15:24, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

"Dis-" originated as kind of like "splitting in two".[6] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:02, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:48, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

I am unable to find any trace of this song on either Google or YouTube. Can you give any more information about it? --Trovatore (talk) 19:20, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Word for "Orphan" in Farsi

Hello, I was wondering why there is no pure Farsi word for "Orphan". only یتیم exists, which has its origin from Arabic. There is also بی پدر و مادر but that's just a literally word combination. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.139.179.245 (talk) 18:17, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Why is there no pure English word for orphan? Only 'orphan' exists, which has its origin in Latin. - Lindert (talk) 18:58, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, although i'm not fond of your cynical style. My first thought was that the term should have importance in zoroastrianism, therefore an Indo-iranian word would exist. I also searched in a Pahlavi dictionary, no results. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.139.179.245 (talk) 19:07, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

You could also check Avestan and Old Persian glossaries. However this wikt:Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-Iranian/Hárbʰas seems to indicate that the PIE word did not survive in the Iranian branch of Indo-Iranian, although it did in Sanskrit. You could also look up Pokorny and the UTexas IE pages (available on the net) just in case Wiktionary is missing some data here. Leiden also has some IE etymological dictionaries though I'm not sure there's anything on the net. And if all fails we could ask Florian Blaschke (if he's around). Basemetal 19:14, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm sorry for putting it like that; however, I don't think that there needs to be a specific reason for such things. There may have been an older word that has fallen out of use, but just like English has no need for a Germanic word to describe orphans when there is a perfectly fine loanword available, the same could be true of Farsi. Often one can only guess why one word is used instead of another. - Lindert (talk) 19:24, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

The Anglo-Saxon/Old English term was stoep, as in stoep-beorn, stoep-cild, stoep-dohtor, i.e., the modern 'step'-[relative].[7]. - Donald Albury 22:18, 25 June 2018 (UTC)

Close kin to waif. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:19, 26 June 2018 (UTC)