Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 June 26

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June 26

Korean ‘hyeong’ among women

The Korean word 형 / ‘hyeong’ is used by males to refer to or address an older brother, or by extension, an older male. However, I have come across two Korean dramas where the same word is used regularly by women in addressing a specific female character. The first is Sungkyunkwan Scandal. I took it to be playful or just a joke, since many characters in this series have joking nicknames and given the show’s premise. The second example is in The Lady in Dignity, where the wife of a younger brother calls her husband’s older brother’s wife “hyeong”. Is this word commonly used in this situation? It seemed surprising to me in the context of this series. —Amble (talk) 04:56, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Please put a link to the official Wiktionary. --94.134.89.49 (talk) 15:37, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

I’m not sure what you mean by “official.” Perhaps you were bothered by the fact that I linked the mobile interface to wiktionary? I have changed that in the link above. —Amble (talk) 17:31, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

"One Fewer" or "One Less"?

This edit got me thinking about whether it is correct to say "one fewer" or "one less".

"One fewer reader" certainly doesn't seem correct even though reader is a countable noun. As a native speaker I would normally say "one less reader" but I don't know if that is technically correct.

I tried to find an answer as to what is correct but most responses on the internet were referencing google n-grams.

If there is no definitive answer, what should be used on wikipedia, or should it be avoided?

Cheers --KingUther (talk) 13:05, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Obligatory reference to prescriptive grammar and descriptive grammar. The rules say that fewer is correct; the ignorant multitudes don't care. I'd suggest one reader fewer, which sounds natural and correct to me. Henry^Flower 15:04, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

And I'd suggest "less", because it's the normal opposite of "more", and that to the prescriptivists. There, that covers your choices. --76.69.47.228 (talk) 20:05, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Not necessarily: Less than vs. greater than... Fewer than vs. more than. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:29, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

The adverbial phrase "more or less" is pretty cemented in, and can't be replaced by "more or fewer". But that doesn't mean that "less" always applies as the counterpart of "more". E.g. I have more children than you. "Oh, then I have less fewer than you." - Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:32, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

It sounds "off" to me to have two words in a row that end in -er like that. I can feel myself subconsciously worrying that I've malformed the sentence by having two comparatives in a row with no noun to tie to. :-) Matt Deres (talk) 21:40, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Substitute some other activity: "one fewer xylophonist" cf. "one less xylophonist". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 09:52, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Number affects my grammatical intuition: I prefer "one less xylophonist", but "fewer xylophonists". - Donald Albury 12:59, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

"Fewer than" when the number of items is the comparison. "Less than" when it's the quantity in kilograms, pounds, tons or tonnes, gallons or litres. So you would say, "Ten fires occurred last year, which is fewer than for any year since 2003.", but, "Jones Ltd ordered 1.5 tons of cement in March, which was less than their February order." Now watch as some idiot pipes up to say that colloquial usage means that that rule no longer applies. Akld guy (talk) 21:02, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

However, the question is about "one less reader" vs. "one fewer reader". I don't see any sign of a consensus above, which suggests that it's far from as certain as you are alleging. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:39, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Each speaker of a language constructs their own grammar and vocabulary based on what they hear throughout life. The language learning process is imperfect, and any two speakers will have differences from each other. This is how languages change over time. If you poll a number of people about what exactly a particular word or construction means, you will not get everyone to agree. In that sense, there is no single "correct" language, but if enough people agree on how to say or understand something, we call it a 'rule' of grammar. - Donald Albury 00:00, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

You're not seeing a consensus because many people are utterly terrible at grammar. It's "fewer" without any doubt. Fgf10 (talk) 07:56, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Sure. For example, "<", the "fewer than" symbol. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:36, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

< can be both "fewer" or "less", as stated above by Akld guy Fgf10 (talk) 13:10, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Without any doubt. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:04, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

"Fewer" would certainly mess up Elvis Costello's lyrics. -- Q Chris (talk) 13:39, 28 June 2018 (UTC)