Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 January 24

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January 24

Albertans live far north

It occurs to me that Alberta's major population centres are farther north than those of any other province. Based on Google Maps, it looks like all of Canada's provincial capitals and other major cities (except in Alberta) lie within 100km of the US border, except for some in the Maritimes that are too far east, but still aren't much farther north than northern Maine. Aside from cities in the Calgary-Edmonton corridor, the largest two entries on List of census metropolitan areas and agglomerations in Canada north of Calgary are Saskatoon, SK (population 317,000) and Prince George, BC (90,000). Calgary#Ethnicity shows that there were almost 900,000 residents there in 2001, so while it's grown significantly in the last couple of decades, the region was still far more populous than anything else so far north.

So...why are Alberta's major population centres so much farther north? I didn't see anything in Edmonton or Calgary or Calgary–Edmonton Corridor to explain it. Calgary's article mentions its earlier oil-and-gas history, and the corridor's article mentions recent growth due to oil-and-gas, but the first boom was a century ago (plenty of time for people to leave after the boom), and the second is quite recent; the region could have shrunk hugely after the first boom and before the second, but apparently it was still far larger than anything else (except Edmonton) so far north. Nyttend (talk) 01:46, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

[WAG alert] Apparently because of the route the Canadian Pacific Railway chose to get to British Columbia. Back then, people had good reason to live near railroads. See these maps of "Alberta's Population and Railway Networks". Sandford Fleming actually wanted to go even further north and use the Yellowhead Pass to cross the Rocky Mountains. Engineer Marcus Smith wrote in a report, "This is undoubtedly the shortest practicable line across the continent from Red River to the Pacific, and can be constructed at least cost."[1] However other considerations (e.g. being closer to the US, a dispute in British Columbia about where the terminus should be) dictated that the Kicking Horse Pass be selected. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:04, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Specifically, Calgary was indeed on the route that the CPR chose and in effect was founded by the CPR. Later the Yellowhead Pass route that Fleming advocated was used for two new railways, the Canadian Northern Railroad and Grand Trunk Pacific Railroad, which merged after WW1 to become the Canadian National Railways (now Railway); and Edmonton stands in the same relation to that route. --142.112.220.136 (talk) 04:54, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

I suppose climate matters too. The farther east you go, the colder it gets. Alberta, although still pretty cold in winter, is more suited for agriculture than the same latitude in Québec or Ontario. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:46, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Not just climate, but terrain. See Canadian Shield vs. Palliser's Triangle. --142.112.220.136 (talk) 18:15, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this is not a good place for a city. Alansplodge (talk) 14:43, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm getting a "403 Forbidden Access to this resource on the server is denied!" on that link, Alansplodge. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 176.24.47.60 (talk) 21:22, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

It works for me, but it is a picture of mountains in Waterton Lakes National Park of southern Alberta. Alansplodge (talk) 21:35, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

To the point about terrain -- if you are in Vancouver and need to travel overland to Winnipeg for example, there are still only two "direct" routes, nboth of them winding through moumtain passes, and it was only a year or two ago that both were shut down by various natural disasters and people who needed to do this had to go through the United States Elinruby (talk) 03:48, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

Universities in Middle East History B.A. M.A. programs

Which university in which country offers History as a Bachelor's and a Master's in Arts programs in the Middle East? and I asking only in the Gulf countries. If not, why? is it because the History subject itself can make a person un-Islamic or something? and if that is case, which university offers Islamic studies in Bachelor's and Master's? Donmust90 (talk) 16:35, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Historic multiple births

Assuming that the story of Romulus and Remus is just mythology, what is the earliest known case of twins born in a royal or other important family, with reliable sources to support it? What about triplets or higher multiple births?

Also, has the development of modern medicine and nutrition increased the frequency of twin births since ancient times?

Just curious. --142.112.220.136 (talk) 21:16, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

See List_of_twins#Royalty. Earliest royal entry on that list is 40 BCE. RudolfRed (talk) 21:54, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, that was simple. --142.112.220.136 (talk) 03:29, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I've added an earlier instance to that list: Antiochus XI Epiphanes (124/109 BCE – 93 BCE) and Philip I Philadelphus (124/109 BCE – 83 or 75 BCE), both kings of Syria. --Antiquary (talk) 11:12, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Setting aside unethical practices of the IVF industry, I don't see how the development of modern medicine and nutrition would have affected the relative frequency of multiple pregnancy. It has led to a higher success rate of medical interventions in problematic birth giving, and the impact may have been more pronounced for multiple pregnancy with its higher incidence of complications.  --Lambiam 23:33, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Okay, let me adjust the question to: Has the frequency of twin births increased since ancient times? For how far back are statistics on this available? --142.112.220.136 (talk) 03:29, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Birth records which include the mother's name and a rough place and date of birth (within a few months) could likely be used to estimate the number of live births involving multiple pregnancies but I don't know if anyone has every tried to study this. AFAIK in most cases these only go back a few centuries at best. Note that while baptism records are sometimes used to estimate dates of birth, I quite doubt these will be precise enough to be that useful in estimating frequency of multiple pregnancies. While it was fairly common to baptise soon after birth historically, this did vary [2]. And even where it was the norm to baptise soon after birth, I don't think you can assume two children from the same mother being baptised at the same time were definitely twins (or whatever) as opposed to babies born at different times where for whatever reason one was baptised late for the time period. If you restrict yourself to subsets of the population where possibly better records exist of dates of birth like royalty or the upper class, you might be able to come up with estimates for those particular populations. Nil Einne (talk) 09:49, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Bear in mind that only living children were baptised. Stillbirths and those who died prior to baptism will not show up in baptismal registers. Even after civil registration was introduced, you will need to check the laws in the relevant territories as to whether stillbirths were recorded. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 10:16, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

In England, births have only been recorded since 1837 but registration was not mandatory until 1875. [3] Baptismal registration dates from 1534, but many early records have been lost. Alansplodge (talk) 14:38, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Back to the adjusted question: there's a difference between the frequency of multiple pregnancy and of multiple birth. I can't speak to the frequency of multiple pregnancy (as Lambiam notes, it's unlikely to have been affected), but improved care for the unborn and for the mother has a significant chance of increasing the rate of multiple births. Carrying and bearing a singleton is dangerous enough — consider the frequency of maternal death without modern medicine — and carrying and bearing multiple infants is likely to be more dangerous, given the additional space they occupy in the mother's body. Multiple pregnancies are considered higher risk, after all, and the pregnant woman who dies can't bear any of the children, except in occasional situations assisted by modern techniques. The only suggestion I have to the contrary is that of abortion; only in the last century has there been any possibility (I assume) of knowing that a pregnancy is multiple, let alone possible to kill one or more unborn children while sparing one. Nyttend (talk) 18:40, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

My question about statistics was "For how far back are statistics on this available?"; I didn't ask "From what sort of records might statistics be compiled or have been compiled?" In other words, what was the first time someone published a number like "There seems to be one set of twins for every N single births?" Just curious, but this is not information I've ever seen. --142.112.220.136 (talk) 20:45, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

There are some likely cases from ancient Egypt, but they don't seem to be 100% unambiguous. Suty and Hor: [4]; King Tut: 317a and 317b mummies, [5]; unnamed mummies: [6]. --Amble (talk) 20:33, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Help with text on an image

The picture is of John W. Spellman (Q73811549), but can anyone work out what the text says (I'm not sure I can even make out the second letter of the middle word) and what it means, in what language? (BTW, amazingly, historian Paul Dorpat, despite being in a nursing home with moderate dementia, was able to say that the picture -- which he published 57 years ago -- was of a University of Washington professor, which turned out to be all the context I needed for identification. So, despite his condition, Paul is still a useful resource on Seattle history. & thanks to fellow Seattle historian Valarie Bunn for thinking to ask him.) - Jmabel | Talk 22:48, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

It says Tat Tvam Asi.  --Lambiam 23:11, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

@Lambiam: Thank you! I knew this would be the place to ask. - Jmabel | Talk 23:49, 24 January 2024 (UTC)