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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Everywhere at the End of Time/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Buidhe via FACBot (talk) 23 March 2022 [1].

Everywhere at the End of Time edit

Nominator(s): Wetrorave (talk) 18:56, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a series of six albums where each album depicts a stage of dementia. It starts off normal but with each album, it gets increasingly distorted and unrecognizable, eventually leading up to Stage 6, which sounds like it ends... how Alzheimer's usually ends. It then went on to be known for being extremely long.

This article's gone through two GA nominations and one peer review; I've been a major contributor to it since 2020 and forgot about it a bit in September 2021. Recently I've gone back to it and a general copyedit has been done, as well as checking POV and image licensing. It had been so long since I last edited this article, it all seemed like a burning memory. Wetrorave (talk) 18:56, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by ChrisTheDude edit

  • "He produced the albums in Krakow over six-month periods [...] using abstract paintings by his friend Ivan Seal." - how did he use the paintings to produce the albums? This wording is unclear.
Done: re-worded to "and used paintings by his friend as album covers." Wetrorave (talk) 14:06, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The albums depicts" - typo
Corrected. Wetrorave (talk) 14:06, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "See also: Patience (After Sebald)" - unclear why this is here
Clarified: Patience (After Sebald) is an album that was released before EATEOT and after An Empty Bliss. Unfortunately I can't seem to figure out a way to put a description in the See also template, so this may need to be removed. Wetrorave (talk) 14:06, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
TBH unless you can find a way to work it into the prose, I would suggest just removing it. It just looks totally random there without any context.... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:30, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with all "memories" of the project starting the process of "cropping up"" - this wording is a bit odd and I can't quite figure out what it means. The memories began the process of cropping up but didn't complete said process?
Agreed; removed this entire sentence since it doesn't really fit for a "Background" section and is mentioned later. Wetrorave (talk) 14:06, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whoops, got to log off unexpectedly. Will be back to continue this review later..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:00, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your suggestions! Wetrorave (talk) 14:06, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
More comments
  • "Also an electronic musician, Burial's style has been compared to the sound of Everywhere" - I think "The sound of Everywhere has also been compared to the style of another electronic musician, Burial" would read more naturally
Agreed; done. Wetrorave (talk) 22:25, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "specifying the "elegance" on Kubrick's film and the drama on Allen's work." - both uses of "on" should actually be "of", I think
I think both are fine but since I'm not a native English speaker and don't always get the on's and in's and at's right, I've changed it to "of" anyways. Wetrorave (talk) 22:25, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "this results in phrases such as such as" - stutter at the end there
at the end of -time (ba da tsss). Corrected. Wetrorave (talk) 22:25, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It is the most distant to the sould" - sould?
How did I not realise the amount of typos this article has? Corrected. Wetrorave (talk) 22:25, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "there are not any official uploads of music videos for the last four stages on vvmtest." - what's vvmtest?
Already explained in the article: both of which were uploaded to Kirby's YouTube channel vvmtest. Wetrorave (talk) 22:25, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He opposed to these expected opinions" - think this should maybe be "He expressed opposition to these expected opinions"
Indeed a better way to phrase this; done. Wetrorave (talk) 22:25, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Stage 6 received more praise, with charactiersations" - last word is spelt wrong
One more typo corrected. Wetrorave (talk) 22:25, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Everywhere at the End of Time was included in a list of Portuguese journal Espalha Factos" => "Everywhere at the End of Time was included in a list in Portuguese journal Espalha Factos"
Done. Wetrorave (talk) 22:25, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "whereas direct searches made up for over 50%" => "whereas direct searches made up over 50%"
Done. Wetrorave (talk) 22:25, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I believe I have addressed all of the issues mentioned Chris. Wetrorave (talk) 22:25, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Gerald Waldo Luis edit

Revisiting this reminded me of this quote: "The only way to be happy is to love. Unless you love, your life will flash by. Do good to them. Wonder." Oh yeah, track B4 is now my phone ringtone lmao. Anyways, comments--

Resolved comments from GeraldWL 17:30, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
* No duplicate links :)
  • "depict" is usually referring to visual content and many find it hard attributing it to audio content; suggest changing to "evoking", "reflect", or "symbolizing" wherever you feel appropriate.
  • Changed uses of "depict" to "represent", "portray", and "reflect". Wetrorave (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which Beaten Frowns After depicts as ourselves". Meta referrals are not allowed on Wikipedia; suggest changing "ourselves" to "human beings themselves."
  • "that sampled big band records"-- link big band.
  • "Kirby said he praises Basinski's works"-- either change "praises" to "loves", or removing "said he" since "praises" already has it covered.
  • Changed to "Although positive of Basinski's works, Kirby insisted" Wetrorave (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and the drama of Allen's work"-- "and the dramatic avidity of Allen's work"
  • "writing for Tiny Mix Tapes, Frank Falisi compared it to the bathroom scene of The Shining rather than the ballroom one, where "Grady [is] in the bathroom wiping Jack's coat"" --> "writing for Tiny Mix Tapes, Frank Falisi compared it to the bathroom scene rather than the ballroom one. In it, the film's caretaker character Jack and the butler Delbert Grady disagree on who from either of them was the former caretaker." You can see the clip here.
  • Removed this part since, in hindsight, maybe it shouldn't be mentioned. It gets a little out of the scope of EATEOT, being basically a whole sentence dedicated to a scene from a whole different piece of media. Wetrorave (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The track titles present more somber themes, with names such as "Surrendering to Despair", "Last Moments of Pure Recall", and "The Way Ahead Feels Lonely". They represent the patient's awareness" --> "The track titles present more somber themes, with names such as "Surrendering to Despair", "Last Moments of Pure Recall", and "The Way Ahead Feels Lonely", representing the patient's awareness"
  • Done, also removed the first "the" of this sentence. Wetrorave (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The songs play for longer times and feature fewer loops, but are more deteriorated in quality. They focus on the patient's realisation that something seems wrong with their memories and the denial accompanying that feeling." --> "The songs play for longer times and feature fewer loops, but are more deteriorated in quality, symbolizing the patient's realisation that something seems wrong with their memories and the denial accompanying that feeling."
  • Done, but "symbolizing" should be "symbolising" for consistency with the rest of the article. Wetrorave (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "stating "It's possible to find ten versions of one song now."" There's no comma in "stating" here, but there's a comma in "saying, "I'd be finishing one stage". Must be consistent.
  • Done, since there's a comma in all of the other "'ing' before a quotation mark"-style sentences, so that's the most consistent way to write it. Wetrorave (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "by Kirby's long-time friend Ivan Seal." Link Ivan Seal
  • "Kirby thought of not producing the series at all." --> "Kirby initially thought of not producing the series at all."
  • "When asked what studies about dementia interest him the most, Kirby stated, "To me it's all interesting."" I don't understand what this serves for this article, it seems to just be a trivial question.
  • "only the Caretaker did."--> "only the Caretaker persona did."
  • "Kirby said the visuals of Weirdcore are important to his music, calling them "another World within the World.""--> "Kirby said the visuals of Weirdcore are important to his music, calling them otherworldly."
  • Not entirely sure about this, since the capitalising of "World" is something that Kirby always does when writing and is also a bit of a little easter egg in the article. But eh, why not. This wording is clearer anyways. Wetrorave (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • As a video, [−0º] must be in quotations in lieu of italics
  • "It was chosen as one of the best audiovisual works of the year by Fact."--> "It was chosen as one of the best audiovisual works of the year by the music website Fact."
  • Done but without that last "the" and changing "website" to "magazine". Wetrorave (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As of January 2022"-- considering you are subscribed to vvmtest and you can change the status when anything is released (I bet otherwise anyway), you can just use {{Date}} so you don't have to update every month. As well as for the reference's accessdate.
  • This template seems very useful, actually. It's gonna make editing the Backrooms easier, so thanks for letting me know :). Wetrorave (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • No problem, comrade ;) GeraldWL 15:44, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove link to Netherlands as country links are discouraged
  • Didn't know there was a page for the pandemic's impact on the music scene, done. Wetrorave (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Footnote d can easily be a prose sentence, I don't see why it must be footnoted
  • Agreed, and that last part from "however, music" to "patients happier" would be a nice transition into the next sentence. Done. Wetrorave (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Friday Night Funkin'" --> "Friday Night Funkin' (2020)"
  • "Ref. is from 17 May" --> "The reference is dated 17 May"
  • My PC randomly froze while I was editing this part and I panicked for a short second but fortunately I didn't lose all my edits :). Done. Wetrorave (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oh welp, lucky it's recovered :) my laptop used to bluescreen constantly and I can feel you lmaoo.. GeraldWL 15:44, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "album released between"--> "an album released between
  • Done.
I believe I have addressed all comments Gerald. Support? again, no pressure :) Wetrorave (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It looks all good now, just one more: in "This triggered negative backlash", change "this" to "The claims". GeraldWL 15:44, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Gerald Waldo Luis: Also done. Wetrorave (talk) 16:31, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support after all comms resolved. Masterpiece of a masterpiece. Btw if you're interested, I have an open FLC that is needing a source review. GeraldWL 17:30, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Realmaxxver edit

I have already been involved with this article quite a bit, but I am going to still add comments. Realmaxxver (talk) 22:01, 6 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Realmaxxver:: Not to seem annoying but do you still plan on commenting for this FAC? It's been over 9000 3 days. Wetrorave (talk) 19:17, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I was already editing this page on another tab, editing this page, so yeah. Realmaxxver (talk) 19:40, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict × 3)

  • "He produced the albums in Krakow over six-month periods to "give a sense of time passing" ' " → "The albums were produced in Krakow over six-month periods to "give a sense of time passing"" ' "
Done. Passive voice does seem to read better here. Wetrorave (talk) 13:35, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As each stage was released, the series received increasingly positive reviews from critics. They felt emotional about the complete edition, given its length and dementia-driven concept." → "As each stage was released, the series received increasingly positive reviews from critics; feeling emotional about the complete edition, given its length and dementia-driven concept."
Not done, since this would be gramatically incorrect, but added the semicolon. Wetrorave (talk) 13:35, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Considered to be Kirby's magnum opus, Everywhere at the End of Time became an Internet phenomenon in 2020, appearing in TikTok videos as a listening challenge. It was later translated into a mod for the game Friday Night Funkin' (2020)." → "Considered to be Kirby's magnum opus, Everywhere at the End of Time became an Internet phenomenon in 2020, appearing in TikTok videos as a listening challenge, and would later be translated into a mod for the game Friday Night Funkin' (2020)."
Partly done: changed to "and was later translated". Wetrorave (talk) 13:35, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • In album FAs, the sections about the album's recording/production are placed before the section about the music itself (e. g. Low (David Bowie album), Pod (The Breeders album)) so I am pretty sure that there is a MOS issue in this article.
Eh maybe, but the album project style guide recommends that the Production section be placed after the Music section (it's only an essay but it's also the only album style guide on WP). And considering that EATEOT is a series of albums where the concept and artwork (both of which appear in "Music and stages") are very important to understanding why it even exists, and also considering A1's popularity (a song presented through an infobox of this section), I think it's fair to leave both sections as they are. Wetrorave (talk) 01:24, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. Realmaxxver (talk) 18:46, 12 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Background
  • "The Caretaker project first explored memory loss with Theoretically Pure Anterograde Amnesia (2005)," As this sentence introduces Kirby's first records based on memory loss, I would suggest this be the start of the second paragraph, as shown here.
I think it's okay this way. The idea here is that this section talks firstly about Kirby's past history and then about An Empty Bliss. Given that An Empty Bliss had a much greater impact on EATEOT's creation that TPAA or PRoP, so I think the way the paragraphs are separated now is fine. Wetrorave (talk) 15:03, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think that concept album should be linked here; "Kirby felt the only concept left to explore would be "stages of dementia."[2]"
Already been done here. Realmaxxver (talk) 21:00, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Music and stages
  • "Ideas of deterioration, melancholy, confusion, and abstractness are present.[10] Tiny Mix Tapes suggested that, as the Caretaker's swan song, Everywhere "threatens at every moment to give way to nothing."[11]" → "Ideas of deterioration, melancholy, confusion, and abstractness are present,[10] which Tiny Mix Tapes suggested that, as the Caretaker's swan song, Everywhere "threatens at every moment to give way to nothing."[11]"
Not done. Connecting both sentences would suggest that Tiny Mix Tapes is talking about those ideas, which is untrue and WP:SYN. Wetrorave (talk) 12:31, 17 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However, as viewed by Spectrum Culture's Holly Hazelwood, Kirby's work does not focus on physical decay, while that record does;[10] although positive of Basinski's works, Kirby insisted his own "aren't just loops breaking down. They're about why they're breaking down, and how."[2]" semicolon redundant
Done. Wetrorave (talk) 18:23, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Removed semicolon. Wetrorave (talk) 23:31, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The sound of Everywhere has also been compared to the style of another electronic musician, Burial;[10][17] author Matt Colquhoun wrote for The Quietus that Burial and the Caretaker "highlight the 'broken time of the twenty-first century.'"[17]" replace "Burial and the Caretaker" with "both artists"; "The sound of Everywhere has also been compared to the style of another electronic musician, Burial;[10] author Matt Colquhoun wrote for The Quietus that both artists "highlight the 'broken time of the twenty-first century.'"[17]" The first instance of ref 17 is redundant.
Done both. Wetrorave (talk) 23:31, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It features an organ, choral, and a minute of silence in the last 15 minutes, portraying death.[16][21]" → "In the last 15 minutes, It features an organ, choral, and a minute of silence, portraying death.[16][21]"
Done. Wetrorave (talk) 23:31, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Stages 1–3

  • "In contrast with the first stage's joyful sound, Kirby described the second stage as having "a massive difference between the moods."[1]" I think this sentence would better in the second paragraph than the first.
I put this sentence here specifically because I think it actually serves as a bit of a transition from reading about Stage 1 to reading about Stage 2, not to mention that Kirby himself noted the difference between both stages and that all paragraphs start with "Stage # is described". Wetrorave (talk) 23:31, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Coming back to it, it really does fit in the Stage 2 paragraph. Done. Wetrorave (talk) 10:14, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Stage 4–6

  • "Hazelwood interpreted it as "a traffic jam in audio form", likening it to neurons that become filled with beta amyloids, and the record differs heavily from previous albums,[10] with its source material sometimes being reduced to a whisper." this is a runon sentence; "Hazelwood interpreted it as "a traffic jam in audio form", likening it to neurons that become filled with beta amyloids. The record differs heavily from previous albums,[10] with its source material sometimes being reduced to a whisper."
Don't remember this sentence being like this when I last edited this article in 2021 but eh, done. Wetrorave (talk) 17:17, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Realmaxxver, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:24, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Still reviewing. Realmaxxver (talk) 20:03, 28 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Artwork and packaging
  • "Tiny Mix Tapes included Beaten Frowns After—the artwork for Stage 1—in two listings of the best album covers of 2016 and the 2010s.[51][52]" I think this would preferred on the second paragraph than on the first
I think it's fine like this. The second paragraph is more related to what the album covers depict, rather than their notability or accolades, so this division should be ok. Wetrorave (talk) 14:16, 4 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Release
  • "Weirdcore's visuals were later presented with Kirby's music in a video titled "[−0º]", in 2020.[81] It was chosen as one of the best audiovisual works of the year by the music magazine Fact.[82]" → "Weirdcore's visuals were later presented with Kirby's music in a video titled "[−0º]", in 2020,[81] which was chosen as one of the best audiovisual works of the year by the music magazine Fact.[82]"
Partly done; changed to "In 2020, Weirdcore's visuals were presented with Kirby's music in a video titled "[−0º]"; it was chosen as one of the best audiovisual works of the year by the music magazine Fact." Also just realised that there isn't a source for Weirdcore being called "Nicky Smith", so I've just changed it to "anonymous visual artist Weirdcore" in the beginning of the paragraph. Wetrorave (talk) 19:13, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Critical reception
  • "In March 2021, it peaked as the best-selling record on Boomkat,[92] the platform Kirby uses for his physical releases.[5] As of 5 March 2022, it remains as one of Bandcamp's best-selling dark ambient records.[93]" This part would work better in the "Impact and popularity" section.
Not done. This is per other FA articles of Mid-importance albums, such as ACLaM. Plus, even the best-selling album of a very niche genre, or very niche website, is still a niche album, so I don't see how that would indicate emotional impact or popularity. Wetrorave (talk) 19:12, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]


Thanks Realmaxvver. I know I did not agree with some of your suggestions but am still grateful that you support this FA. Now that it's likely no more editors will review this article (though I wish some of them did), it's up to our benefac- I mean, our coordinators to have a say on this. @FAC coordinators: Yay or nay? Wetrorave (talk) 10:14, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The ping only goes through if you add it in the same edit as your signature. As stated below it does not appear that NFCC files have been evaluated so I've requested that at Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Image and source check requests. (t · c) buidhe 10:22, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oh alright, didn't know that. This article did have some NFC issues in the past but I believe it's fine the way it is, even with 6 non-free files. It has 3 samples, the maximum number allowed per WP:SAMPLE, and the album covers are terrifically important. Wetrorave (talk) 14:24, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source/image review - pass edit

  • Sources look all good, appropriately formatted. But why are the refs in Release history not list-defined like the rest?
  • Good question: it's because they're easier to manage this way. The refs in Release history are used only in that section, and thus thet don't need to be list-defined since they're used only once in the article. Plus, most readers don't edit Wikipedia anyways, so they wouldn't notice. oops forgot to leave my signature Wetrorave (talk) 13:19, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmm I see. I reviewed the guidelines, and list-defined reference aren't given the same scrutiny as CS1 vs CS2, and this article does not have consistency template, so I'm sure it must be fine. Source pass. GeraldWL 14:19, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Images have appropriate captions, licences, but for the Ivan Seal, you can remove the "looks up". GeraldWL 03:51, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Wretchskull edit

I've really enjoyed listening to this album. Excellent work on this article!

  • What makes ref 5 reliable? Did Kirby himself ever mention this YouTube channel and confirm that it is his? There is another link in the YouTube description (this one). Is it more reliable?
I don't see how one source would be more reliable than the other, per WP:SELFSOURCE, and Kirby confirmed that this is his YouTube channel throughout various interviews that are used as references for the "Impact and popularity" section (plus the Electronic Beats one). Bandcamp would be particularly unreliable for sourcing this type of info per WP:VENDOR. Wetrorave (talk) 13:57, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 9q states "Stage 5 doesn’t let us forget the inhumanity it documents, with titles like “Stage 5 Advanced plaque entanglements” and “Synapse retrogenesis", but the article states "Hazelwood considered names such as 'Advanced Plaque Entanglements' to be 'inhuman'". I'd change the article text to "Hazel wood considered names such as 'Advanced Plaque Entanglements' to be documenting "inhumanity".
Done. Wetrorave (talk) 13:57, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • At external links, is the "(CAPTCHA required)" needed? Personally, a CAPTCHA didn't appear, but even if it did, it doesn't need to be mentioned. Notes about external links are usually only about whether it requires subscription or registration. I'd remove it.
As someone who added this note recently, I had my doubts on whether this should be here but added it anyway. Removed. Wetrorave (talk) 13:57, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Wetrorave: More to come. Wretchskull (talk) 10:52, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Continuing the review:

  • "In 2020, he was due to perform live for the last time at the "[Re]setting" Rewire Festival, which would have occurred in April at The Hague in the Netherlands. However, the show was cancelled due to the COVID-19 pandemic." Not really relevant to this FAC, but I definitely think you could add that to Impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on the music industry.
  • Actually it's already linked.
  • Why is Leyland Kirby linked in the Stage 6 release note but nowhere else? It should be as consistent as "Ivan Seal".
Because Leyland Kirby is simply a redirect to the Caretaker (musician), which is already linked before. It's linked only in the quote box per MOS:REPEATLINK: "Generally, a link should appear only once in an article, but it may be repeated if helpful for readers, such as in infoboxes, tables, image captions, footnotes, hatnotes, and at the first occurrence after the lead."
  • Done.
  • In "see also", Patience (After Sebald) should be removed; it is already linked in the lede (The Caretaker chronology).
  • Done.
  • I see that the first mention of Everywhere at the End of Time of each section is given the full name and is shortened to Everywhere when mentioned again. Smart choice, but in the "Impact and popularity" section, the full name is given multiple times.
  • Shortened them to Everywhere, except in the first sentence, where I feel the full title is appropriate similar to in "Critical reception".
  • Have you found anything about the topic on WP:TWL?
  • Wetrowave, I can help with the TWL if you can't access it.
I can but, to be honest, I think the article already has more than enough in terms of references. Those could be included but I think the article should easily pass FA criteria in terms of references even without those TWL sources, per WP:ONUS. I'll still search there though. Wetrorave (talk) 16:42, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Also, are all sources on TWL considered reliable? Many of the sources there seem to be WP:RSSM (and I won't repeat that mistake again lol). Wetrorave (talk) 16:59, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If you're interested, Wetro, some of the interesting results I found in TWL are the articles "We found the greatest: Everywhere at the End of Time", which has some interesting interpretations; "Art transcending aura", analyzing the album with an artistic theory; "Casual Cadenza", which has an interpretation on the album's message. These all are accessed from Gale, publisher by UWIRE. There's also a very extensive essay at Teen Ink which I can share via wikimail. GeraldWL 17:05, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I think I'm gonna check all "Find sources" links on EATEOT's talk page and see what I can add. Wetrorave (talk) 17:32, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Wretchskull: Actually, I probably won't have time to check the Google Search link, but I did with all the other ones. Besides the ones you've already mentioned, some of the results that I found interesting are "Utilize music in education for better results", "Music highlights you might have missed in October", and "Catching up with Leyland Kirby". I'd add them now but am unsure how to; is there some specific template for Gale citations or something? Wetrorave (talk) 18:31, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Wetrorave: If you want to cite from a database, you should probably check what type of media the article you want to cite is, but {{Cite journal}} should probably work for most of them. InvalidOStalk 12:56, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Alright thanks. Wetrorave (talk) 13:00, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Gale actually has more than journals. The ones I mentioned are all news articles, thus must use Cite news. Just sayin'. GeraldWL 13:30, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Wetrorave: I messed up. Read above. InvalidOStalk 14:26, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Too late Invalid, I already did lol. I'll see how I can change those refs to Cite news again. Wetrorave (talk) 14:36, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately none of them actually talk about the album, and the one that does is WP:SELFPUB. Wetrorave (talk) 16:49, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there not a single available image of Leyland Kirby?
Would it not be possible even under fair use? This is the only article that would use an image of him so I don't really see a problem with that. Wretchskull (talk) 17:36, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Actually IMO, the Caretaker article would be the one that would use an image of Kirby. Unless there's critical commentary available to relate the image to the album, it shouldnt be here. GeraldWL 13:30, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Wretchskull and Gerald Waldo Luis: This is all honestly very strange. Coming back to this, the deletion log left by a Commons admin says "No permission since 14 July 2021", but I found an archived copy (before July though) where the permission seems to be just fine (Own work). Did someone inadvertently remove the CC 4.0 license from the article and got it removed? If so, should it be reuploaded? The image is still very much available here. - Wetrorave (talk) 21:11, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Depending on the nature of the image (which I can't load), a claim of "own work" might not be enough to establish that it is infact own work. (t · c) buidhe 21:43, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: Oh nevermind, just realised I do have one photo of Kirby from his "Everywhere, an empty bliss" art exhibition (which is also where I got the Ivan Seal photo from). It doesn't show his face very clearly but it's better than nothing, and it also makes for an image to accompany this article if it goes to WP:TFA some day. As you seem a good reviewer of free images, do you find a claim of "own work" for this photo to be enough? Wetrorave (talk) 22:04, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Which image? Is there a link? (t · c) buidhe 22:10, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: Yes, here it is. Guess I forgot to upload it lol. The original image had 720x540 pixels but here it's cut for focus purposes. I believe you weren't notified so I'm pinging and resigning this edit. Wetrorave (talk) 22:49, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Looks fine to me. (t · c) buidhe 23:30, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nice :). Wetrorave (talk) 23:31, 18 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Wetrorave: Ping me when you're done. Wretchskull (talk) 15:31, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Wretchskull:, I believe I've addressed all points (including the addition of TWL refs). I did not find any CC photo of Kirby on the Internet or in my gallery, though I do plan on travelling to Barcelona to see Kirby at the festival and take some photos of him there. I'd like to know what's your position on this nomination. Wetrorave (talk) 22:26, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Very well done! As a side note unrelated to the FAC, I mentioned that the following fact: ("In 2020, he was due to perform live for the last time at the "[Re]setting" Rewire Festival, which would have occurred in April at The Hague in the Netherlands. However, the show was cancelled due to the COVID-19 pandemic.") could be added to the article "Impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on the music industry". You, or whoever replied, misunderstood my comment as suggesting that said article should be linked, which it already is. Regardless, I support this nomination. Wretchskull (talk) 23:55, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Wretchskull, apologies for moi's misunderstanding. I think it can be added to that article, if Wetro pleases. GeraldWL 01:35, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Ovinus edit

Really excited to see this article brought so far; I listened to this album a few years ago and was disappointed to see the article in mediocre shape. I made some tweaks as I read, so feel free to challenge those.

Yeah I also get pretty disappointed when I look through archived versions of this page and find the article in a sincerely deplorable state lol. I've added "In 1999" in the beginning of Background. Wetrorave (talk) 21:49, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "empathy for carers" Empathy for carers and suffers, or just carers?
Sources in Impact and popularity tell us it's patients only (+ not really a reliable source but the whole EATEOT YT comment section is about how dementia is horrible), so changed. Wetrorave (talk) 12:01, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "However, as viewed by some commentators, Kirby's work does not focus on physical decay, while that record does." Can we really take a stance here and say it in Wikipedia voice?
Agreed; changed. Wetrorave (talk) 12:01, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "reflecting the memory and its deterioration" The memory of...
The patient's memory; changed. Wetrorave (talk) 12:01, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Will continue in a bit and do an NFCC review per buidhe's comment below.
  • Sentence starting with "The songs sampling ..." needs a citation (which should be straightforward to find)
There's [2], which I'm not sure is "high-quality" but for such basic info, I think it's fine. Wetrorave (talk) 12:01, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "contrary to Stage 1's first signs" Eh... I don't know if "contrary" is exact here. Maybe "in stark contrast with"
Agreed; changed to "in contrast with". Wetrorave (talk) 12:22, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "lack of feelings" maybe link to apathy ?
Changed it to apathy altogether. "Lack of feelings" feels kinda awkward to read in my opinion. Wetrorave (talk) 12:22, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "sample the aria "Lasst Mich Ihn Nur Noch Einmal Küssen"" As played by whom?
Source says it's played by Bach; changed. Wetrorave (talk) 12:22, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That's definitely not who played it. Bach might've written it, but I don't think we can find recordings of performances from the 18th century. There's a likely candidate for the actual record it came from, but there's no reliable sources for that. I'd say it's probably best to remove it entirely. InvalidOStalk 13:46, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've changed it to "The last six minutes sample a performance of Bach's aria". Is this acceptable? Wetrorave (talk) 14:44, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Seems fine to me. InvalidOStalk 16:50, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Due to his prolific way of working" A bit odd and NPOV? Maybe just remove
Removed "prolific". Wetrorave (talk) 12:22, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "One difference Kirby noted between Stage 1 and Stage 2 is that ... samples fully play." Belongs as a short sentence in the previous section (on Stages 1–3), since it it's more of a musical choice apparent (to an astute listener) in the end product than a production element
I think it's still fine to include this here. This information is already mentioned on Stages 1–3 ("The songs play for longer times and feature fewer loops,") not to mention that some songs on Stage 2 are still loops (C3 and D3). Wetrorave (talk) 12:22, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "aleatoric music" maybe define?
I've added "leaving certain elements random", is this fine? Wetrorave (talk) 12:22, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "which modern software is capable of" Software and hardware has been capable of "removing specific frequencies" for a while, in the literal interpretation—see Electronic_filter_topology#Biquad_filter_topology. So maybe remove, since it doesn't add much either
Done but only for the modern software part. Wetrorave (talk) 12:22, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "pedagogical documents" I don't know what "pedagogical" means in this context; Kirby is writing lecture notes on his music?
Removed pedagogical since, well, I'm not really sure what it means either to be honest. Only one õut of the three sources says "Dossier Pedagogique" anyway. ~~
  • "sense of time passing" passing... in the life of the dementia patient?
I believe it's to the listeners; added "to the listeners". Wetrorave (talk) 12:22, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "When releasing Stage 5, Kirby's press release spoke about comparisons of the series' progression to the then-ongoing Brexit process." Is this really relevant?
I think it is when you consider the fact that Kirby is Bri'ish British. Wetrorave (talk) 12:22, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "described by several critics as better, although some disagreed" Rough sense of proportion here, in your reading?
I'm not sure what you mean by this but I've changed this part to "generally described as better". Wetrorave (talk) 12:38, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'highlighting Stage 6 as "going fully corny in its final minutes"' Doesn't corny have a negative connotation? It's in a sentence pretty uniformly about praise
I've changed this part altogether to "with a Tiny Mix Tapes writer alternately highlighting Stage 6's "corny" ending as 'giving us the release his concept might want to refuse but that our decaying, sappy minds want.'" Is this fine? Wetrorave (talk) 12:38, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Kirby asserted he knew about the phenomenon by noting an exponential growth of views" Why is this relevant?
I think it's relevant. It's the first time Kirby noted his work got popular, so it's pretty relevant imo. Wetrorave (talk) 12:38, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Going back to the empathy thing in the lead: Is the empathy directed toward dementia patients or their caretakers?
Already answered. Wetrorave (talk) 12:38, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "however, music has been proven to make patients happier" Erm, what? Remove unless a source is specifically talking about Kirby's work; I doubt a dementia patient—or really anyone—will be made happier by Stage 6 :P
Yeah this is kinda awkward. So this was previously just a footnote but I agree with you that it's not worthy of inclusion anyways. Wetrorave (talk) 12:38, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The claims triggered a negative backlash" The claims, or the challenge?
Per the sources, both of them; added "and the challenge". Wetrorave (talk) 12:38, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to be authentic" Authenticity to himself, or faithfulness to the disease?
To himself I believe; changed. Wetrorave (talk) 12:38, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: Sources for Track listing, while not by default reliable, are fine for this case imo.
  • First footnote needs a period at the end.
Done. Wetrorave (talk) 12:38, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Some more comments

A few more mild concerns. Ovinus (talk) 17:57, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The series' exploration of dementia drew comparisons" Hm? The sources compare Basinski's usage of deteriorating loops, not dementia
Changed to "exploration of decay".
  • "Due to his way of working" mentioned above, but I'd suggest removal. It effectively means nothing without further information, and the following information speaks for itself.
Yeah agreed, this is redundant. Removed. Wetrorave (talk) 20:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is The Fader a high-quality RS?
I think so. The Fader has been used by a source in many other news articles per a Google search and it has interviewed notable musicians. Plus this context doesn't use the source to assert a fact, but rather the source IS the fact. Wetrorave (talk) 20:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • If the album is stylized "Everywhere at the end of time", why is the article title (and work throughout) in sentence case?
But it isn't. Titles are in title case per MOS:CT. Wetrorave (talk) 20:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ah shoot, forgot that doesn't apply to works of art. Thanks!

Great and thorough read; I'm really impressed. Perhaps long for an article on a piece of music, but given its monumental complexity and length, is quite reasonable (esp when the alternative would be a main article + six short articles). Ovinus (talk) 22:13, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

NFCC analysis

Images have been checked above; the question is sounds. Ovinus (talk) 22:13, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • My main concern is the first sample, which ultimately is just a slowed-down version of "Heartaches" by Bowlly, with a bit of noise added. It's not a few seconds of it, either. Because the article is not about Bowlly or his work, and because "Heartaches" was published after 1926 (or whatever the date is), I recommend its removal, unless it has fallen into the PD for some reason I'm unaware of. Most of Stage 1 consists of these types of long samples, so there may not be a good alternative. Perhaps someone more familiar with music copyright can comment here.
@Ovinus: I think it's a worthy inclusion. Indeed, A1 may be just a vaporwave-ing of an old song, but it's easily the most recognisable melody of the album. One source [3] even mentions it as "an apt introduction to Kirby’s baseline working methods," not to mention Bowlly himself does have some significance to EATEOT and the Caretaker as a whole.
Unfortunately, the song was published in 1931, so it is not PD (yet), but I still think that only by including such non-free content, can the reader identify a behavior that is a subject of discussion in the article. I'll soon (tomorrow, at least where I live) be responding to the other comments but about this one, what do you think? Wetrorave (talk) 01:23, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Cool, take your time! I agree it's worthy of inclusion from an educational standpoint; it's just a weird copyright edge case. Al Bowlly and his work only mentioned in passing; the article does not analyze Bowlly and his life, or the orchestra. That said, looking back at WP:NFCC I see that the criterion is indeed "contextual significance", not whether the authors of the item are discussed. The sample is short enough, at 19s (original song is 3:30). Just clarify in the fair use rationale that the copyright belongs to both Universal Music Group and Kirby. (Also, please desussify it.) Ovinus (talk) 02:50, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, the amogus part was my main concern lol. I am fine with nearly all your prose edits, except for two things I've done:
  • changed "for example:" to "to create phrases such as" on the Stage 3 para;
  • changed letters after colons to lowercase for a more consistent style.
Wetrorave (talk) 11:48, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Samples H1 and R1 are in line with the NFCC guidelines and both have full justifications on their respective pages.

@Buidhe: Are there any other tasks to complete for this article besides NFCC? I see it's near the bottom of the FAC list Ovinus (talk) 22:25, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There's no rush, plenty of time for you and Wetrowave to finish this review and a coord to look over the nomination. (t · c) buidhe 22:26, 22 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Ovinus: I believe I have addressed all issues presented. Wetrorave (talk) 12:38, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Nearly everything looks good. About the colons: MOS:COLON says every complete sentence following a colon should be capitalized.
  • "more distorted than normal" What is normal, the original recording to comparing to his usual work?
It's in relation to the other tracks; changed to "more distorted than others." Wetrorave (talk) 20:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He believed his descriptions may distract from this" I don't understand this sentence.
Changed to "He believed his liner notes may distract from Seal's art," which I believe makes the sentence less vague. Wetrorave (talk) 20:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Inconsistent pronouns (he/her) for "In 2021, Hazelwood ... ".
The author is a woman, so I believe someone changed it out of confusion about the writer's gender. Changed to 'she'. Wetrorave (talk) 20:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • "called by TikTok" should be "TikTok users", unless ByteDance did that.
It is TikTok themselves, though not all of ByteDance, since source says it's William Gruger. Changed. Wetrorave (talk) 20:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's all, after a second pass. I checked 14 citations at random and found no issues. My main concern about source quality was Tiny Mix Tapes, but it has been discussed in 2018 and found to be reliable. Cheers, Ovinus (talk) 16:20, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Question: If this album (or set of albums) was The Caretaker's last release under that alias, what is Everywhere, an Empty Bliss ? Ovinus (talk) 17:38, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
EAEB is more of a "bonus album" rather than a proper release or even recall of the Caretaker alias/character. This is especially noticeable when you consider the fact that EAEB is just a compilation of scrapped tracks initially meant for use on EATEOT, so I'd still say EATEOT is the final Caretaker release. Wetrorave (talk) 20:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Ovinus: Adressed issues. I've list-defined your response to make it easier to read. Wetrorave (talk) 20:47, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Great, thanks. There are no statements about dementia that would fall under WP:MEDRS and, in particular, there is no claim that the album correctly portrays the stages of dementia—in fact, the opposite is stated by some commentators. One last thing: The anosognosia redirect headnote should probably be "For the condition of a patient's unawareness of their own disorder, see ..." since the (nonmedical) term post-awareness evokes something like, "totally unaware of surroundings", rather than the more specific anosognosia. Support nonetheless. Ovinus (talk) 21:42, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Coord note

It looks like no one has evaluated the audio files for NFCC issues? (t · c) buidhe 03:25, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Buidhe. I was wondering, do you feel like you could be bold and review those audio samples yourself? Of course, this is not mandatory. And thanks for letting me know about this page. Wetrorave (talk) 11:36, 12 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: Do you think the rationales for the sound samples to be fine? I'm accepting to remove some of them if they end up meaning an excess of non-free content. Today marks this album's three-year anniversary, and it'd be cool if this article got FA status exactly three years after its subject matter was released. - Wetrorave (talk) 15:16, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry, but I feel more comfortable evaluating licensing for free content vs. non-free content. (t · c) buidhe 15:18, 14 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm I see. I wonder if it would be acceptable to upload a sample of "Back There Benjamin", given that Sgt. Pepper has four tracks and they are all similar sounding while EATEOT has a lot of varied songs throughout its stages. Wetrorave (talk) 13:05, 15 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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