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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bernard A. Maguire/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 26 September 2020 [1].

Bernard A. Maguire edit

Nominator(s): Ergo Sum 18:02, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a Jesuit who headed Georgetown University before and after the American Civil War, and opened Georgetown Law School. Ergo Sum 18:02, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

  • Don't use fixed px size
  • File:Bernard_Maguire_-_oval.jpg: when/where was this first published, and if the author is unknown how do we know they died over 100 years ago? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:23, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Added a better license tag. Ergo Sum 21:46, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport from Coffeeandcrumbs edit

  • I will do a full review soon. In the mean, I did notice the lead is a bit unusual. I recommend working in that he twice served as president of Georgetown as the second sentence or part of the first sentence of the lead. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 00:24, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • How did I overlook that? I've incorporated the fact into the lede sentence. Ergo Sum 18:17, 17 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Early life

  • I would change the section to Early life and education. I think solo subsections are distracting and awkward.
  • Delete "the town of ". town is in the name.
  • Period missing after )
  • "John McElroy, a Catholic priest, ..." makes more sense
  • "would visit" → "visited"
  • Sentence beginning with "As an adult, Maguire ..." seems out of place. Let's see if we can find a better place for it
    • I've removed it altogether because in hindsight, it doesn't seem all that important. Ergo Sum 16:33, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Perhaps you can make more of the rest of the paragraph from Curran: "popular", "remarkable public speaker", "one of the most renowned preachers", ...
  • "McElroy enrolled Maguire ..." would be much more effective if it followed right after the sentence that ends with "... ensured that he received an education". Merge the first paragraph of §Education into the preceding paragraph.
  • I still don't know what a prefect is and the article about it is not helpful. I assume its akin to head of the class or class president. On first mention can you add a very short description like "served as prefect of the university, the leader of class." or something like that.
    • I really haven't been able to pin down what the historical sources mean when they use the term prefect in this context. I'm hesitant to speculate. My gut feeling is to leave it as it is and allow readers to draw the same conclusions you did (prefect is some kind of leader of students) and do more intensive historical research if interested. Ergo Sum 16:35, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the students at Georgetown, while he remained as prefect. During this time, there was ..." – seems better to me
  • "reputation for being stern" is a good place to move "tall, slender, and black-haired" next to
  • "Maguire's declining" → "Maguire declining" OR "Maguire's declination"
  • "overrule the prefect" → "overrule him" --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 07:52, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Coffeeandcrumbs. I've caught up on your comments so far. Ergo Sum 16:37, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Georgetown University

  • you could add an h4 section heading titled "Tenure" after "... assumed the office on January 25, 1853."
    • That seems a bit overkill to me. Ergo Sum 15:41, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "liked" seems a bit informal. Try: "well liked"
  • Consider this, to break the long sentence in half: "However, some students were displeased with the prefect's imposition of discipline and Maguire's declination to overrule him. They staged another uprising during Maguire's presidency, throwing stones and inkwells to break windows at the university."
  • "at breakfast the following morning" — consider moving this to the beginning of the sentence
    • I think that breaks the continuity of the paragraph. The preceding sentence ended with the rebellion, so it seems smoother if the following one starts with it. Ergo Sum 15:48, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete "to the students" and change "a lecture by Maguire" to "a lecture from Maguire" and add "in which he appealed to their sense of honor" from Shea 1891, p. 179
    • I've rephrased the sentence to add your suggestion.
  • "during the night," — remove comma
  • "to an end and was he succeeded" → "to an end, and he was succeeded"
  • "later becoming" seems strange – do you mean "which later became
  • hmm, when did the school become a "university"? I forget
    • There was no fixed date. Technically it received university status in 1815, but it was never referred to as one until many decades later. My rule when editing historical Georgetown articles has basically been to refer to it as a university when thee preponderance of sources do at that period of time. So, it is a gradual phase in over time. Ergo Sum 15:48, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "later was renamed" → "was later renamed"

I am concerned by the phrase "another uprising". I understand it is the second uprising mentioned in the article but something feels off. I have no suggestion for solving the dilemma so I might have to live with. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 08:21, 2 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Coffeeandcrumbs: Thanks for your comments. Do you have any additional ones? Ergo Sum 15:49, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please replace "suffered greatly" with a more objective phrase such as "significantly diminished".
    • I really don't see how that can be subjective language; it has only one possible meaning. Nonetheless, I've rephrased. Ergo Sum 00:48, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "to rebound and the damaged" – I prefer a comma because it is followed by an independent clause
  • "presidency, but were suspended" – no comma here because it is not followed by an independent clause
  • "than was the medical school, which operated largely autonomously" – the sentence reads just fine without was, I don't think you need the comma, but that is just my preference
  • "members, and announced" – no comma here because it is not followed by an independent clause
  • "university commencement in 1870" – add "June" from the same source for context for "October" in the next sentence--- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 16:53, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • J. A. M. mentions this was his first time engaging in pastoral work. Might be worth noting
    • I had that in there before, but decided to remove. In hindsight, I think it's relevant. Added it back. Ergo Sum 00:53, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wouldn't the link at "pastor" be more useful to define what pastoral work means. Actually, I would rewrite the first 2 sentences in the § Pastoral work as "After his first presidency at Georgetown, Maguire was sent to be the pastor at St. Joseph's Church in Baltimore in 1858. This was the first time he engaged in pastoral work, garnering a reputation as a skilled orator."
  • If you do the above, delete "as the pastor".

That is it for me. I'm happy to support, assuming the above comments will at least be considered.--- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:51, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, C&C. Ergo Sum 00:54, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

SandyGeorgia edit

Placeholder, mañana. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:57, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Among Maguire's professors was Virgil Horace Barber.
  • Virgil ... was one of Maguire’s professors ??? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:31, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm not sure I follow. Virgil Horace Barber was the professor's name. Ergo Sum 16:38, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Studies ... studied ... vary wording? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:34, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • He then began his studies at Georgetown University, where he studied rhetoric from 1839 to 1840 and philosophy from 1840 to 1841.
There are four uses of the word in that paragraph, Same thing in next paragraph. Find ways to vary the wording, and in that section, try to think of “less is more” on some of the prose. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:39, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@SandyGeorgia: I've gone through the whole article and cut down on excess verbiage. It should be much more streamlined now. I appreciate your feedback. Ergo Sum 16:58, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This sentence is bouncing around a bit in terms of what tense used:

  • His tenure was regarded as successful, with new buildings being erected, the number of students increased, and the preparatory division being partially separated from Georgetown College.
What do you think about:
  • His tenure was regarded as successful; new buildings were erected, the number of students increased, and the preparatory division partially separated from Georgetown College.

I feel like this sentence has it backwards:

  • Maguire again became president of Georgetown in 1866, in the aftermath of the American Civil War, which had devastated the university.
What do you think about:
  • After the American Civil War devastated Georgetown University, Maguire again became president in 1866.
    • I've rephrased the sentence. Ergo Sum 20:17, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:OVERLINK? (Your discretion.) Priesthood is already linked in the lead, not a complex term, repeat link not needed, ditto for Society of Jesus. Tailor and shoemaker need linking, common words? Rome? Canada? Re-examine links per overlinking of common words that readers will never click on from here.
    • Removed links to tailor and shoemaker; Canada too. I generally think linking cities is helpful, no matter how large. I've kept priesthood because it doesn't appear elsewhere in the main body. Ergo Sum 20:19, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Among Maguire's professors there was Virgil Horace Barber.
  • One of Maguire's professors there was Virgil Horace Barber. But Barber is never referenced again in the article, so we don't know why he is mentioned or why he is significant.
  • He preached regularly, until retiring from the position in May 1875. Is the comma needed?

These are pretty much all nitpicks, and I anticipate supporting. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:03, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, SandyGeorgia. Ergo Sum 20:20, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@SandyGeorgia: Do you have any additional input? Ergo Sum 15:49, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies ... I have been so swamped and struggling to catch up, that I was slacking off and hoping C&C would finish first ... looks like C&C is still working. Best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:47, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Once C&C's issues are addressed and they are satisfied, I can also be considered a Support, with my sincere apologies for a very busy week (the mouse invasion at the cabin was the best part of that week ... so sorry for my delay!) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:01, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, SandyGeorgia. Not to worry. Hope you've got the mice under control. Ergo Sum 00:55, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review – Pass edit

I will do the source review, as well, some time this week. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 18:53, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ergo Sum, sourcing and referencing is great, as always. I will focus on making sure we squeeze out all we can from the sources:

  • J. A. M. 1887, p. 5 – says he also taught mathematics while serving as prefect and overseer of the library and museum at St. John's College
  • Easby-Smith, p. 107–114 – may offer more details for his second term as president
    • Most of the info contained there was already present in the article, but I did find one factoid that I added and cited. Ergo Sum 04:38, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • This source offers more detail on what "declined precipitously during the war" means; I also found the 4/5th of the alumni fought on the confederacy side bit interesting
  • Do you have access to this source? According to this source, page 33 of the former source seems to indicate that Maguire was responsible for choosing the school colors of blue and gray, long before the Boat Club made that choice.
    • I don't, but I think the Summerfield source sufficiently describes that the adoption of the colors occurred during Maguire's presidency, so I've added it with that ref. Ergo Sum 05:46, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Here, you will find a photograph of the campus as of c. 1864.[2]

--- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 22:29, 11 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    • I'm not positive I can verify the copyright status on that photograph. If you're able find any info on when it was published, that would help determine it. Otherwise, I don't know if it can be used. Ergo Sum 05:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Coffeeandcrumbs. Ergo Sum 05:55, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, thank you for another great article. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 06:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note edit

I'm adding this to the urgents list and source review list, but I'm leaning towards archiving it soon if it doesn't garner some support shortly. It's been on the FAC list since 21 July with no support yet. --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:39, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Ealdgyth: Perhaps this FAC might be ripe for closing, since there hasn't been much activity after the source review? Ergo Sum 17:46, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Lee Vilenski edit

I may end up claiming points towards the wikicup. Hope you don't mind! :P

I'll take a look at this article, and give some comments on how it meets the FA criteria in a little while. If you fancy doing some QPQ, I have a list of items that can be looked at here - specifically FACs for 2020 World Snooker Championship and 1984 World Snooker Championship Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:44, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps I could help? I'll take a look now. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 19:44, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Lee Vilenski for your helpful comments. Ergo Sum 01:45, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Lee Vilenski: Do you have any additional feedback? Ergo Sum 00:47, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I've added one more comment, but other than that - great work. Happy to support. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:36, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Hog Farm edit

I'll take a look at this soon. Might be claimed for the WikiCup. Hog Farm Bacon 21:50, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • "McElroy enrolled Maguire at Saint John's College in Frederick, a Jesuit school of which McElroy was president. " - When?
    • Just my opinion, but that seems a bit extraneous. One can click on McElroy's article for that info. Ergo Sum 01:47, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think the date when Maguire entered school is relevant for his own article; we may have been thinking of different things. Hog Farm Bacon 02:21, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • Oh, I thought you meant the dates of McElroy's presidency. The source doesn't give a date of his enrollment, unfortunately. Ergo Sum 02:36, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "while he taught mathematics was the prefect at Saint John's College - Something is off here. Missing a word?
    • Quite right. Added the missing word. Ergo Sum 01:48, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During his time as prefect, there was an uprising among the students, which resulted in the dismissal of seventy from the university." - Can the cause be briefly stated?
    • I've added several sentences to describe the nature of the dispute. Ergo Sum 02:20, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The end of early life is a bit confusing to me. So in the 1845-46 academic year, he's prefect. He's then a student until 1849-50, when he does catchecism. It's then mentioned that while he was prefect, there was a vague rebellion. At an unspecified date, there's a rebellion; Maguire was prefect during the issue. So he was still a prefect by 1849-1850? The chronology here is just really unclear to me.
    • You're right; it is confusing. I think I've straightened out the timeline. Ergo Sum 02:20, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Following the end of the rebellion, Maguire replaced Burchard Villiger as first prefect" - So is first prefect a higher rank of prefect than the level of prefect Maguire was before the rebellion?
    • Yes, it appears so. I think the current language makes that somewhat clearer. Ergo Sum 02:21, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Soon thereafter, the Jesuit Superior General confirmed the board of director's election." - It's unclear which exact event "board of director's election" refers to. Also, is director's the correct punctuation? With the current punctuation, it would put the whole phrase in the singular as "board of director", which seems very odd to me.
  • "Some students were displeased with the prefect's imposition of discipline and Maguire's declination to overrule him; they staged another uprising, throwing stones and inkwells to break the windows" - When? Chronologically, this would only make sense to be between January and April 1853.
    • The source doesn't make it clear except that it occurred during the first year of his presidency. Ergo Sum 02:25, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Overall, Maguire was regarded as a successful president" - By whom?
    • It seems by that historian. I've clarified this in the text. Ergo Sum 02:27, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On October 5, 1858, his term came to an end and, he was succeeded by John Early" - The comma after the and looks like it shouldn't be there to me.
  • Maybe this is a personal preference, but it seems like this would make more sense in chronological order. The article goes first presidency, second presidency, and then pastoral work; the chronological order is first presidency, pastoral work, second presidency, and then more pastoral work.
    • I agree. I've reorganized the sections. Ergo Sum 02:31, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As a result, the decreased enrollment, the university was left in a precarious financial state" - This use of an appositive is weird to me. Maybe "As a result of the decreased enrollment, ..."
  • Put the refs in alphabetical order. Hollister should go before Shea.

I think that's it from me. Any of these are open to discussion. Hog Farm Bacon 01:10, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm: Thank you for your comments. Ergo Sum 02:33, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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