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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Alf Ramsey/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 28 March 2019 [1].

Alf Ramsey edit

Nominator(s): Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned!, The Rambling Man (talk) and User:Egghead06 22:28, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the only England manager to have won a major trophy.

It's a high quality piece of work, mainly thanks to The Rambling Man and another former editor, whom I remember fondly and would love to see editing again - and if you see this, you know who you are, your work here is appreciated and you are always welcome to drop me a line.

I invite scrutiny, constructive criticism and support - if due. Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 22:28, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

PS If anyone knows how to add TRM as nominator, please do. I'm too tired/stupid. Thanks. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 22:30, 4 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by JennyOz edit

Hi Dweller and TRM, as discussed, a few questions and suggestions...

  • an agrarian village - wlink agrarian?
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:59, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ramsey would describe - described
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:59, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • and the 100-yard and 200-yard dash - would 'dashes' look silly, or add 'the' before 200?
    Added "both" before "the" and that seems to work? The Rambling Man (talk) 09:59, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • boys as old as fourteen; his nine-year-old brother Len v the 14-year-old Ramsey - not sure numerals/words
    I think it's the "cats and dogs" MOS thing, it's okay as long as it's a single word (e.g. fourteen) but don't mix numbers and words in a single sentence. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:59, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ned Liddell, a scout from Portsmouth - wlink scout to Scout (association football)
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:02, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • League South - is only linked in caption
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:02, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • first campaign following the war - "campaign" a bit odd here when discussing army and war
    Need Dweller's creative input on this... The Rambling Man (talk) 10:02, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    !!!Made me laugh. Great spot. Fixed. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:35, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • then a hat-trick - wlink
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:05, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ramsey's entire professional playing - is entire needed?
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:05, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • an away match at Newcastle United. - against?
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:05, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • his final competitive appearance for Southampton - did he play in friendlies or remove competitive?
    Yes, see the following sentence. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:05, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Spurs - need to add it as (Spurs) at first mention Tottenham?
    No likey. I thought about replacing with Tottenham (I hate using nicknames) but that led to a quick repeat, so I'll let Dweller cope here. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:06, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Hmm. That's tricky. It's infantile to put "Tottenham ("Spurs")" or similar in the text, and a footnote wouldn't be noticed, unless we switched format to Roman numerals for it. How about wikilinking the first instance to List_of_football_club_nicknames_in_the_United_Kingdom#England? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:58, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • His understanding of the game and authority on and off the field led to his teammates nicknaming him "The General" - change "his" to Ramsey's (last subject is Rowe)
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:10, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • They had missed the first three World Cup tournaments in the 1930s - "missed" is ambiguous, better word declined, refused or similar?
    Tried a re-word. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:10, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Football Association in London - add (FA)
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:10, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • grabbed a shock lead on 37 minutes - at?
    I think this is probably fine as a BritEng phrasing. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:10, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • hit the woodwork numerous times - pipe to goal structure (or maybe everyone knows what woodwork refers to
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:30, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • had one effort that appeared to cross the line not given - add commas after effort and line
    I'm not sure this is necessary really, perhaps if we added "but was" before not? The Rambling Man (talk) 10:30, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Nah, it's okay. JennyOz (talk) 06:36, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ramsey scored his third and final international goal in the game, from the penalty spot - Move "from the penalty spot" to beginning of sentence, all three were penalties?
    Not sure I see an issue with this, Dweller? The Rambling Man (talk) 10:30, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Yup, agreed it's not the finest prose. Reworked. A few other fixes done at same time, such as helping contextualise Ramsey's comments about "four goals" --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 20:57, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • had won a total of 32 caps, - wlink cap
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:30, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ramsey, Nicholson, Burgess and others - Burgess not yet named or wlinked
    Ron now mentioned in full and linked. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:30, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • among sections of Tottenham's support - what does support mean, supporters and/or managers etc?
    Supporters. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:30, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • but in the Spurs dressing room - apostrophe ie Spurs'?
    Replaced with Tottenham. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:30, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • today Zimbabwe - now?
    Removed in toto, let the link speak for itself. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:30, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ipswich were a ticky proposition - tricky?
    Fixedy. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:34, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • style goals - eg in excess of 100 goals v scored over sixty goals
    Aligned. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:34, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • two years after winning the league title - most places has cap L
    Not sure about that in this context, I'll defer to Dweller on this one. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:34, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Made consistent. Capital when a title, l/c when not. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:58, 7 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • he formally took charge on 1 May 1963 - date is in full in previous para, perhaps first instance could just be May 1963
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • captained the side for the first time away against - comma after time
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ramsey's first competitive match - but what about the previous game, was it a friendly?
    Yes, clarified. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • 3–0 down at half-time, Bobby Tambling - start sentence with At half-time...
    Tweaked. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ramsey insisted that he pick the team himself and included seven players who would go on to win the World Cup in 1966 - sort of ruins the next section. Maybe just 'seven players who would be in the 1966 World cup squad' or similar
    Tweaked. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • before France scored two more - 'goals' not mentioned so 'twice more'?
    Re-wrote this bit, too much detail for my liking. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Two difficult situations arose from the final group match, however. - however not needed?
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:51, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • selected young Geoff Hurst as Greaves's replacement, once again seeing potential in the young West Ham forward - when seen before?
    Not sure, removed. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:51, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • 4–4–2 - wlink
    Linked 4-3-3 which came first. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:51, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • the midfield now boasted Nobby Stiles and Bobby Charlton in the centre - is "midfield" same as "centre"?
    No, centre is part of midfield, as (e.g. in 4-4-2) you would have a left midfield, a right midfield and two centre midfielders. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:51, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Argentine v Argentinian
    Made consistent. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:51, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • After a violent quarter-final - was it physical as well as "violence of the tongue" (per his article)?
    Both. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:51, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • stopped his players swapping shirts - add end of game tradition (I s'pose everyone know what it means)
    Added something along those lines. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:51, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2009 autobiography, "Greavsie", - the quote marks shouldn't be in italics?
    Tweaked. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:51, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • a fluent and skilful Portuguese side - wlink nat team
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:51, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • A particular example of this was Alan Ball - I'd drop "of this"
    Tweaked. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:51, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • never showed signs of tiredness - tiring?
    Tweaked. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:51, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • fullback v full-back
    Made consistent. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:51, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • forbade his players to lie down on the pitch to rest - what's that about, during a break before extra time? What was score at that stage 2-2?
    Noted that 2-2 earlier, and yes, between end of full time and the start of extra time, usually a brief respite, a few minutes. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:56, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Maybe after "on the pitch to rest" add 'before extra time'? JennyOz (talk) 06:36, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Thus added. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • goalkeeper, Chelsea's Peter Bonetti. - sea of blue 3 wlinks, goalkeeper is already wlinked
    Well strictly there's an unlinked "'s", and now removed link to goalkeeper. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:56, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gordon Banks had been taken ill - was ill
    "had been taken ill" is regular BritEng, to kind of indicate that it was sudden and disruptive, rather than just chronic and predictable. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:56, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • had let an innocuous shot - seemingly innocuous?
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:56, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • by topping a qualification group - 'their' qualification group?
    Tweaked. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:56, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • England then faced West Germany again in a home-and-away knockout match - is that 2 matches?
    It is, I don't like this wording at all, I'll let Dweller have a look at that. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:07, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:58, 7 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks, and I just read Two-legged tie so now I get it! JennyOz (talk) 06:36, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • England's qualification group for the 1974 World Cup, consisted of just Poland and Wales - plus England
    Tweaked. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:07, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • for a World Cup finals since 1938 - remove "a" or "final" singular?
    No, this is okay, the finals are the last games of the tournament after qualification. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:07, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • were a massively improved team - "massively" not encyc, 'very much improved'?
    Just removed "massively". The Rambling Man (talk) 11:07, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ramsey had asked for the Football League games to be postponed - explain why? were England players required to play for their club teams ie he wanted them rested/in camp/not subject to poss injury?
    I guess your explanation is exactly right, it's a modern theme even now, the resting of players from their day jobs to maximise England's chances. Added some text based on the source. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:07, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Brian Clough described Polish - explain who Clough was
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:07, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • goalkeeper Jan Tomaszewski as a "circus clown in gloves" - why? any relevant response/backlash?
    He was unorthodox (added) and well, the backlash was he played out of his skin and won the game for Poland. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:07, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • who made many crucial saves - aren't all saves crucial?
    Not if you're 5-0 up (say). The Rambling Man (talk) 11:07, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • before bringing on forward, Kevin Hector - was that controversial ie to sub who?
    Just controversial to not bring on more attacking players until five minutes to go in the game which England were losing. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:07, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • first time in the national team's history (England did not compete in the three pre-War World Cups, but that was because of a boycott of FIFA by the English FA). - this is also explained at para starting "Ramsey's first taste of playing as an international..."
    Removed and added new source. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • refused to take his place - vehement of 'declined'
    Not sure I'm seeing the issue here. It was a vehement decline. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Because I couldn't see the source and any context, I didn't understand what the word "refused" was relaying. If a player refuses to leave the field after being given a red card or a child refuses to go to bed, they are in the wrong. OTOH if someone refuses a second serving of cake, it's a different meaning ie a polite decline. So when I read (past tense) that Ramsey refused to take Bell's place it sounded like he was being naughty. Maybe soften "refused to take his place" with "refused the offer to take his place"? JennyOz (talk) 06:36, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Okeydokes. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • was a good stepfather to her daughter - he and Rita/Vic not have any children together?
    Not that I'm aware of. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • He was a Freemason of Waltham Abbey Lodge from 1953 until 1981, when he resigned. - also mentioned and linked (uncapped) 2 paras above "Ramsey was an active freemason."
    Removed repeat. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • After Ramsey's retirement from football management, he continued to live in Ipswich - Ipswich the place needs its first link up at "Ramsey returned to Ipswich to spend time"?
    Linked first time. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The location of the funeral in Ipswich rather than in London was regarded as a snub - regarded by who, is it suggesting Alf had pre-arranged the location?
    That's not speculated upon or expanded upon in the source. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • is a street in Ipswich - near stadium?
    Expanded. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ramsey was listed in the top ten best British managers - "top" is redundant
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Legacy - it's rather horrid to end the article's prose with that quote?
    I completely concur. I will ask Dweller to find some counterpoints! The Rambling Man (talk) 11:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't understand. There's a negative quote, followed by lavish praise to end. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:00, 7 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Because I already fixed it, sorry for the confusion. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:26, 7 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • quotes - check punc, some are not LQ?
    Pardon? The Rambling Man (talk) 11:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, I meant MOS:LQ (which I only think I understand:)) Some examples to check:
    "Until I travelled to Cornwall, the longest journey I had undertaken was a trip to Brighton by train," he recalled. - should comma be moved ie ...Brighton by train", he recalled. (There are no more of his words following in the sentence.)
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    "That set the tone for Alf's war," Leo McKinstry suggests - ditto
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    ...are in trouble," the journalist Nigel Clarke recalled him saying. - ditto\
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    "Under Rowe, Alf became far more than a defender," comments McKinstry. - ditto
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    never get into a situation that exposed him".[39] - full stop should be inside quote marks?
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Hardaker who said: "It is a football match, not a war". - full stop inside? JennyOz (talk) 06:36, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Refs eg in refs 94 to 96 - what do those page numbers mean?
    Pretty common parlance: pp. 10– means "page 10 onwards". The Rambling Man (talk) 11:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Many people have their first name repeated after first mention, so many I'm wondering if 'normal' (and many of those have multiple wlinks) eg Walter Winterbottom, Billy Wright, Bill Rochford, Bill Ellerington, Terry Paine, Martin Peters, Ian Callaghan, Ray Crawford, Geoff Hurst, Jimmy Greaves, Bobby Moore, John Connelly, Alan Ball, Nobby Stiles, Jimmy Greaves, Bobby Charlton, Leo McKinstry. NB I understand they may be intentional. I didn't include mentions in lede or tables for these and the following other duplicate links.
    Usually only repeated if "sufficient prose" has elapsed to make it necessary to reassert it. If you have any specific issues, please let me know! The Rambling Man (talk) 11:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • some national teams are linked more than once in prose, eg England, Germany, Scotland, Yugoslavia, Soviet Union (and one is piped Soviet Union, one USSR), Switzerland.
    Now just the once. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wembley (1923) wlinked 3 times
    Now just the once. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • F.C. clubs multi links, West Ham, Leicester, Birmingham, Liverpool
    Now just the once. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:24, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • captions - some are frags?
    I think I got 'em, but feel free to just tweak anything I missed. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:27, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • quote box - Eric Day, one of Ramsey's Southampton team-mates - all others are teammates
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:27, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Don't forget I'm not very au fait with football terms and am fine with you to bypassing comments where that is obvious. JennyOz (talk) 05:41, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

JennyOz thanks so much. I've addressed and responded to most of them, a handful for my esteemed colleague when he gets a moment. Look forward to round 2! The Rambling Man (talk) 11:27, 5 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks so far both, just adding another comment, JennyOz (talk) 07:24, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Consider adding at Legacy - the European Coach of the Year (association football) has been named the Alf Ramsey Award since 2001?
    I would definitely do that if I could find a decent reliable source for it... any ideas? The Rambling Man (talk) 09:27, 6 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, that's weird. I found nothing in a search for either manager or coach of the year. JennyOz (talk) 06:36, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Hi JennyOz, how do our updates look? Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:42, 20 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the blockquote: Alf tended to speak in a very poncey plum-in-the-mouth way. It was all "Oh hello Rodney and how are you?". To me it was all complete bollocks., should the internal quotes (ie around oh hello rodney sentence) be singular even though outer quote marks aren't visible? (MOS doesn't seem to address at MOS:SINGLE or at MOS:BLOCKQUOTE.)
    I really don't know. If it's not addressed by MOS I guess it's a personal choice as long as the article is internally consistent. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just noticed that quote attributed to McLynn ("he was a humourless...") from Guardian. I don't think they are literally his words. They appear in a subhead blurb written in third-person, probably by a sub-editor as a summary of what is in McLynn's article. Therefore quotation marks aren't appropriate? (Though I have no idea what punctuation treatment would apply.)
    No idea how to handle that. The Guardian is reporting what McLynn said. I think the only option might be "According to The Guardian, McLynn considered Ramsey to be "a humourless...", but I'll leave this to Dweller to fix, he needs to feel involved, after all! The Rambling Man (talk) 11:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think we have to second-guess the RS. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:48, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Dweller and TRM. I've replied re original comments above. All else you've answered, thanks! I've added 2 new comments for your consideration. Looking good! Regards, JennyOz (talk) 06:36, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

JennyOz all done, bar the very last one which I've made a suggestion and pinged Dweller on. Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 11:55, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Dweller and TRM, I am happy to support this nom. Special gratitude for explanations! Regards, JennyOz (talk) 02:43, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Kosack edit

  • What's the source for his height in the infobox?
    Good spot, have tweaked per the best RS we have. If it's an issue it goes. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:05, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The opening two sentences use England four times in quick succession, sounds slightly repetitive maybe.
    Mildly tweaked, but happy for anyone else to have a further go at it. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:05, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • pupils aged from four to 14. I think the mix of words and numerals is to be avoided when referring to comparable figures in the same sentence.
    Indeed, the "cats and dogs" paradigm. Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:05, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • played a total of 90 league and six FA Cup appearances for Southampton, does played and appearances work together here? I would of thought a player "made an appearance" rather than "played an appearance" if you see what I mean.
    Agreed, made "made" rather than "played". The Rambling Man (talk) 12:05, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • concrete bid, slightly informal? Perhaps, an official approach or offer?
    "official". The Rambling Man (talk) 12:05, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • In relation to the above bid, did Ramsey reject Wednesday?
    It's not clear if it was personal terms or simply Southampton looking for better offers. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:29, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Tottenham section, the word season is left outside the links to the relevant season page where as it is included in the earlier parts of the article. I would try and keep the links consistent throughout.
    My mistake, I think just one instance remained, as I tried to fix this already. Hopefully now done. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:29, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Yugoslavia to the national side in in the England international section.
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:29, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The last paragraph of the England international section has a sentence that begins "and refused to accept." I'm guessing somethings missing from there or it's meant to be connected to the previous one?
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:29, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The England international section spans 1948-1952 but is positioned between his Spurs career. Wouldn't listing it separately to his club career be more appropriate? Like Kevin Beattie for example?
    That would make sense to me, I'll ping the co-nom, Dweller, to see what he thinks before making a wholesale change. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:29, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree. Doing it now. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:52, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Walter Winterbottom is linked twice in the opening paragraph of the England section.
    Indeed, and removed repeat of his first name too. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:29, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • West Germany are not linked in relation to the 66 final but are linked further down for the 1970 tournament. Swap the links to the first mention.
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:29, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alan Ball linked twice in the 1966 World Cup section.
    Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:29, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Great article, I genuinely enjoyed reading that. A few minor points I noticed above. Kosack (talk) 11:41, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Kosack, many thanks for your comments. I've addressed all bar the snipping out and reinserting of the England career, I'd like my cohort to opine. Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 12:29, 21 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
All my issues have been addressed, happy to support this. Kosack (talk) 20:10, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 22:57, 5 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by ImmortalWizard edit

I will be doing mainly spot checks and verifiability of sources. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 13:42, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • In the 1966 World Cup, ref 101 doesn't talk about the his "tactical awareness" and the players' position.
    Good spot. This source could be added usefully. Except it talks about 4132 not 442. The bit about Ramsey offering to quit over Stiles could also be worth including, what say you, The Rambling Man? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:24, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah, since this user has advocated long term bans on me, I'm not inclined to comment further or deal with this objectively, so I'll leave it to you Dweller. I'm perplexed as to why someone who has made such open scathing comments about me personally would seek to comment on a FAC with which I'm deeply involved. And she's not the only one doing this. It's all a bit odd really. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:42, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    OK, I'll amend. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:36, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He stuck to his guns and kept faith with Greaves's replacement, Geoff Hurst, who vindicated Ramsey's" - bit subjective and I suspect WP:SYNTH. Maybe the video ref in 103 supports it completely, which I don't have access to.
    This seems self-evident to me. I'm pretty sure I can easily find a source who says something like this, but you're asking me to reference it being light when the sun came up. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:34, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I checked ref 130, but couldn't find any support to England being the favorites of the 1972 World Cup.
Assuming you mean the 19702 World Cup, this source says "Journalists ranked England as favourites to retain the World Cup, although I suspect this reflects the hyperbole and unrealistic expectations that have always followed the national team." Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 15:02, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. I can't find the ref you mentioned being used so far. Hopefully it will be cited in-line. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 16:07, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Done --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:34, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regarding his sack in 1974, I think it would be worth mentioning his negative publicity mentioned in ref 104, since the previous manager quit similarly and it's mentioned.
    I'm not sure what this means. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:52, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It seems that some of the FA's officials had long held grudges against Ramsey." The tense of "It seems" bothers me and is quite vague. Maybe rephrase it better?
    Good spot. Clarified. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 15:53, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • So I merely found ref 146 here (pay for full access) and it's published in 1977 not '76. Otherwise it's fine. I would recommending archiving the older news articles for better access.
    Fixed, thanks --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:14, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
ImmortalWizard Hi, thanks for your comments, I'll wait until you're finished (please indicate when that happens) before I fix any issues. Obviously the article is a big picutre thing so it'd be best to hear from you about all your issues before starting out on anything. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:53, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

ImmortalWizard thanks again, your comments here seem to have come out of the blue, but are very much appreciated. Regardless that many have asked why you're commenting here, I personally welcome your input, and look forward to focusing on your comments to make this a featured article. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:02, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Unfortunately, it was my first major FAC involvement and I opt to close here. The prose is well-written apart from being subjective here and there with some buzzwords and weasel words. I schemed through a couple of the FA essays, especially this one, regarding source checking. I think fact checking is quite often overlooked, understandably because of being painful and time killing. However, I think we should aim for more to enhance credibility and reader' interest. Overall, the article is neat and look passable. Since it's my first FAC review, I would appreciate constructive feedback from both the nominators and other editors. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 17:04, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I mostly assumed good faith, so my review might not weigh much in hindsight. THE NEW ImmortalWizard(chat) 17:15, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All done, I think. Thank you for the comments. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:14, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Ritchie333 edit

I reviewed this for GA and thought it was in pretty good shape even then, and I am pleased to see the article at FAC, which I know the nominators have wanted to do for some time. With the issues addressed above, I can't think of anything off the top of my head that would prevent me from supporting this; hopefully if I get time I will look into the article in more depth and report back anything. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 14:58, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • The word "manager" followed by "managed" in the opening two sentences jars a little bit, but I can't think of any alternative that works better right now.
    I think that was a fair call. I've amended by inserting some info about playing, to break up the repetition a little more. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:57, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The problem with that is the lead now starts off by talking about his playing career, then switches to mentioning his managerial career which he is far better known for; unfortunately, again I haven't got an ideal solution to that, so maybe what we've now got is the best we're going to get. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 12:09, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although Ramsey's position as England manager was confirmed in October 1962, he formally took charge in May 1963" - what was the reason for the delay?
    A good question. I presume it was so he could fulfil his commitments with Ip5w1ch, but I don't have RS to support. The Rambling Man, any ideas? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 12:03, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • ...Ipswich were in serious trouble by October after all the euphoria of the previous season. Alf believed it would be wrong to walk out suddenly on his team at a moment of deepening crisis. He therefore stipulated that he would only take the England job at the end of the 1962–63 season. (McKinstry, p. 199). The Rambling Man (talk) 20:15, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I can't think of anything else, once those two issues are looked at I'll be happy to support. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 10:38, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And that's a support from me. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 23:29, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gerda edit

Thank you for this result of teamwork. Good read, even for someone unfamiliar with the sport, and well sourced. I don't know how to solve that - late - he spent time with his wife of whom we haven't heard before. I am also not happy with "West Germany" piped to a team without "West" in the name, but that's probably eggy just for me. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:27, 28 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Gerda. On the wife, look one section up, in the personal life section, where his marriage is detailed. The Germany/West Germany thing is about anachronism. At the time it was called one, it's now called the other. It would be wrong to call it by the wrong name here. When linking through, the article explains the name. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 16:46, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
At the time, I wasn't into sports in English-speaking countries. Did they really say "West Germany" then? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:09, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Not just with regard to sport. Yes, absolutely. That's what the country was called in English sources until unification in the 90s. No idea what it was called in German. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 22:24, 6 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I believe it was “der Bundesrepublik Deutschland” Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 00:02, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
OK. See West Germany! --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 11:52, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I know that article, and was on the talk page when I was young, because that's sloppy. Was it called that in sports announcements, that's my (admittedly ignorant) question. Guess what, when you live in what was called by some West Germany, you just called it Germany, and your passport said Bundesrepublik Deutschland, - in the eastern part similar, - of no relevance to this article. Would they say: "the hymn of West Germany" in a match? Would results say "West Germany"? Learning. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:40, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. And in all contexts, not just sport. Example. I found it was quite an effort to remember to say "Germany" without prefix in the early 90s. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:15, 7 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Belatedly adding an additional nominator, sorry Egghead06 --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:58, 8 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Lemonade51 edit

minor at that:

  • Under sacking, "The disappointments of quarter final exits from major tournaments in 1970 and 1972," should quarter-final here be hypenated?
  • "Ramsey suffered a stroke on 9 June 1998, during the 1998 World Cup," rather on the eve of the tournament -- it kicked-off on 10 June. Lemonade51 (talk) 16:26, 17 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Lemonade51 thanks, addressed both of those comments. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:20, 17 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comments edit

I don't see where the images have been reviewed, so I've requested one and provisionally a source review. Unless, JennyOz, can I take from your comments that you looked through all the sources for formatting and reliability? --Laser brain (talk) 15:13, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Laser_brain, Nope, afraid not. Looked at a few but not a proper source review. JennyOz (talk) 16:05, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Laser brain looks like we're good to go now. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:30, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Re. images, yes -- think we still need the source review. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:43, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yeah. Let us know if/when this is completed. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:49, 19 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Image review edit

It seems like all images are pertinent to the section they are in; no comment on captions. Most images have no ALT text. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 16:48, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, all addressed. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:56, 18 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

More on sources edit

Some verifiability checks have been carried out, but there are other sources issues. For example, the link in ref 105 is dead, and the link in 106 goes to an unrelated page. Brianboulton (talk) 12:47, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Brianboulton those have been addressed. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:33, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I even got IABot to add archive refs to 67 other references. The joy! The Rambling Man (talk) 13:39, 20 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've run a general eye over the references, and picked up a few further points:

  • Ref 113: link returns a 404 error message
  • A few missing retrieval dates: 83, 93, 108, 159, 162, 189, 190.
  • Retrieval dates are inconsistently provided for book references. See for example, 95 96, 97 et al, and compare e.g. with 115, 117 et al
  • I am unhappy with the use of open-ended page ranges. These have been justified earlier in this review on the grounds of common parlance, but they are not helpful from a verification point of view. For example, "pp. 10–" could encompass virtually the whole book. Some of the books for which open page ranges are used are linked to unpaginated versions, so these page references are unusable in these cases. Chapter references would be more useful.
  • While on this topic, in ref 124 the page reference is given as "pp. 38–" but p. 38 alone supports the statement in the article. Similarly with ref 143 where "p. 301" would suffice.

Subject to the above, the sources meet the required quality and reliability criteria. Brianboulton (talk) 20:09, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

All addressed. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:36, 21 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the eagle-eyed review, Brianboulton and for your hard work fixing things, The Rambling Man --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:40, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I'm here for Dweller... The Rambling Man (talk) 09:57, 22 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Are we all done now? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:44, 25 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Co-ordinators, we appear to be done. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:05, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Dweller: Thanks, taking a look now. --Laser brain (talk) 14:53, 27 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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