User talk:Kleinzach/Archive 17

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Kathleen Battle (continued)

civility concern

Kleinzach - Thanks for all your previous help. Nrswanson has made the following statements on the talk page. Sure makes me look bad. He is welcome to his opinion, but now I feel this is inappropriate and suspect it borders on slander. Please advise on what an editor can do if he/she has this concern.

  • "Not enough common ground and good will on the part of Hrannar has been achieved to make me feel that I can work well with him.... However, I will caution other editors that a strong amount of cencorship has been advocated by Hrannar and that I believe this has had and will have a negative impact on this article's neutrality and integrity. I have archived our discussion in Archive 2. Best of luck to all"
  • It also seems nrswansson may be obscuring an entire discussion, because he seems displeased with some of the things said (he asked me to REMOVE them); shortly after I did not agree to remove them, he archived the discussion. How convenient. Seems like censorship to me. When I explained my rationale, he claims "not enough...good will on [my] part" and archived them. I have no problem with archiving, but archiving them at this point will obscure much relevant discussions and in my opinion, disprove various claims nrswanson makes about me, including his current claim that there is "not enough...good will on [my] part" and that "censcorship has been advocated by [me]."

Entire article here:

Hrannar (talk) 13:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)Hrannar

  • I have left the following message on Hrannar's talk page:
"Hrannar I have chosen to not participate in this conversation anymore, so please just leave me alone. I archived it because you and I were the only significant participants beyond two mediators who now have nothing to mediate. The conversation is now over and the best place for it is to archive it, for the health of the talk page if nothing else. Members can still puruse the archives as they please. I do not take back what I said because I believe it to be true. I will ,however, archive my last statement with the past discussion if you prefer. It really serves no purpose sense the conversation is now over. Go ahead and do what you want with the article. I will not revert or contest anything you do on the talk page or otherwise. I have given up trying to work with you for several reasons. One, you have never for one minute even acknowledged an ounce of validity in any arguement I have made in the last several weeks. 2. You seem to have a vendeta to destroy my credibility in the wiki community by airing my past mistakes, even after I have admitted to them (a long time ago I might add). Repeated attempts to ask you not to do this failed. 3. You have also fought me on several very minor and practical points to the point of high frustration. In short I think you just like to disagree with me now out of spite and I can't work with someone like that.Nrswanson (talk) 19:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Just out of interest...User:Gretab

I don't know if you remember this, but you were quite right to "assume bad faith" about that User:Gretab[1]. "She" is now permanently banned by Moreschi as a sock puppet and a troll. --Folantin (talk) 10:02, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

A note of thanks

  The Tireless Contributor Barnstar
This is an award to you Kleinzach for your consistant excellent work at the opera project as both an editor and what I would call one of our unofficial leaders. I appreciate everything you do. Nrswanson (talk) 11:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Another note of thanks

Hello Kleinzach. Thanks for your note regarding my edit to The Tales of Hoffman. I read it and reread it and I couldn't get that item to make sense. I appreciate your note about the theatre fire as learning new things is one of the joys of editing here. Thanks again and cheers. MarnetteD | Talk 05:45, 18 August 2008 (UTC)


Thanks for the pointer on date formats.Magicpiano (talk) 15:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know and I will use the banner accordingly. Also, I prefer not to assess articles I have created or substantially worked on. That way I get some feddback from anoth editor.Nrswanson (talk) 01:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Ok. I will make sure I do a stub on articles that are short.Nrswanson (talk) 01:18, 22 August 2008 (UTC)


Hey there, thanks for the welcome I just saw it; shows how much I pay attention. :D I'll be looking at doing bot runs more regularly in the next few months I hope, between trying to recover and school starting up in a few days I have a pretty full load right now. Thanks again for the welcome! §hep¡Talk to me! 17:06, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

Man of La Mancha

Hi, do you know what Man of La Mancha is actually, an opera or musical theatre? Domingo recorded this album (audio CD) released in 1996 opposite Julia Migenes-Johnson, Samuel Ramey, Rosalind Elias and many more (Recording detail from I am not sure whether to place this album under "Opera recordings" or "Music recordings". - Jay (talk) 05:24, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Disambiguation pages

Helo. I just thought I'd let you know I'm trying to revert the changes you made to Carlo Bergonzi. If you have a look at WP:MOSDAB, it states that a disambiguation page should be at the person's name, e.g. John Smith, unlss one is far more famous thn the others, i which case he would have the artile 'John Smith' and the dab would be at 'John Smith (disambiguation)'. I just thought I'd let you know the reason. Thanks, Boleyn (talk) 05:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll request an admin make the change, leave it with me. Boleyn (talk) 05:48, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I've requested the move, though apparently there is a backlog. I had to put signs on both pages to let people know what we're doing, but it should all besorted within a couple of days. Boleyn (talk) 05:58, 25 August 2008 (UTC)


Hi, can you tell what will be appropriate translation of Wissenschaftliches Institut zur Erforschung der Tabakgefahren - Scientific Institute for the Study of Tobacco Hazards, Institute for the Struggle Against Tobacco Hazards or Institute for Tobacco Hazards Research? Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 07:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I've had a look at this but I'm not sure myself. I usually only translate stuff connected with music. I think you need to ask someone with better German than I possess. Good luck. --Kleinzach 07:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Opera resources and a note

I just signed up for Grove online. That should help. Thanks for catching those errrors. I assumed (incorrectly) that Stanford would have gone to more care putting together such an extensive resource. Also, I was just purusing the composer wikiproject mainpage and several of the links to the operaproject discussion on infoboxes don't work (they go to uncreated pages). I figured you might know where they should be linking to.Nrswanson (talk) 08:51, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Congratulations re Grove. Was it expensive? (I use books. ) I'll check the Composers links. --Kleinzach 09:02, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Links now fixed. I think this happened because some redirects had been deleted. --Kleinzach 09:14, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

RE: Rhiannon Thomas

Per the Proposed Deletion guidelines, contested PRODs may be recreated by request, as anybody, including the original author, could have contested its deletion. Feel free to AFD it, as the user was informed that doing so would be a possibility. - Rjd0060 (talk) 02:29, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Time limit for what? To start an AFD? No, you are free to start it whenever you wish. - Rjd0060 (talk) 02:32, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Nope; contested prod's can be restored or recreated at any time. - Rjd0060 (talk) 02:35, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Isabel Bayrakdarian Photo

I do think the gentleman named Rob McAlear who keeps on posting his not so flattering photo of Isabel Bayrakdarian is trying to discredit her. I do ask that the photo not be used. And it is very easy to ask her agent or her webmaster permission for one her numerous publicity shots to be posted on her wikipedia page. Their information can be found on her website in the contact section.

In the meantime, I have removed the photo. 11:34, 28 August 2008 User:Pashabaran (Talk | contribs)

Hello, Pashabaron. This is Rob McAlear. . . [message deleted] . . .Rob McAlear (talk) 02:05, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
I've asked Rob McAlear to contact Pashabaron directly. --Kleinzach 02:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

General opera navigation boxes

Sorry for that. Dont know how it got deleted when I added Ponchielli's. - Jay (talk) 05:15, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

No problem! Best. --Kleinzach 05:16, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Rhiannon Thomas

Hello. I noticed you put up Rhiannon Thomas for deletion. Could you explain why it's being deleted? Also, could you reply on my talk page instead of this one. Thanks.--Andrzejestrować Zajaczajkowski Plecaxpiwórserafinowiczaświadzenie Poświadczyxwiadectwo-Bjornovich (talk) (contributions) 08:58, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes of course, please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rhíannon Thomas. Thanks. --Kleinzach 09:01, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Hello. I noticed you thought I created the article. Check the history section of Rhiannon Thomas (without the link). If you still thought I created it, I suggest you go on Wikibreak or something. Also, reply on my talkpage if you're going to reply at all.--Andrzejestrować ZP Pbjornovich (talk) (contributions) (email) 14:43, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

This was clarified two days ago! I replied to you on 29 August on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rhíannon Thomas: "Thanks for the clarification. This case has been confusing - hence my wrong assumption about authorship - but anyway we're making progress here." I don't understand why you are raising this again. Also "I suggest you go on Wikibreak or something" is WP:UNCIVIL. For your own sake read the WP policies so you won't get blocked again. --Kleinzach 23:00, 31 August 2008 (UTC)


It's a matter of consistency: on the Offenbach page, Stage Works are divided into Operettas, Opera and Derivative works [BTW, isn't there C20 operatic concoction called Robinson Crusoe as well as the ballet?], and Operettas points to the list. That's why I removed Hoffmann. A List of stage works by Offenbach could include it. Or indeed a List of operas, since the dividing line is unclear. --GuillaumeTell 15:13, 28 August 2008 (UTC) (Off for a week in the Highlands in late September - it'll be the first time I've been north of Loch Lomond!)

Not sure you really addressed my point above. On Crusoe, yes, what I actually meant was Christopher Columbus - well, they were both seafaring chaps. Scotland: not really a walking trip (downhill through the Samariá Gorge rendered me practically immobile for a couple of days in 2004, while 20 years ago I was able to walk back up a day later without too many ill-effects), more of a gastronomic trip, but my companions are Scottish and will be wanting to point out the sights. --GuillaumeTell 00:29, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Throwing you at featured sounds

Here is the Polacca from the opera "Le Trompeur Trompe" by Pierre Gaveaux : [2] It is from [3], here is the recording information. The source is Al Goldstein Pandora Records music collection, and the licence is {{OAL}} at commons - just put that intot he "Permissions" box.

I have far more things to work on than I could ever do. So I'm going to be evil. =) Poke me if you have any trouble. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 12:01, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry but this is not something I want to take on. There is no article on Le trompeur trompé and I have no information on this work. --Kleinzach 12:50, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Ah, fair enough. Oh, well, I'll put it in my queue if noone takes it up =) Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 12:53, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

One-line articles on Vivaldi operas

Hi. I see you have just written the following one-line articles on Vivaldi operas: Scanderbeg (Opera), Tieteberga, Il vinto trionfante del vincitore, Arsilda, regina di Ponto, and Nerone fatto Cesare. I'm a bit puzzled as to why you didn't keep these in userspace. Could you possibly let me know - perhaps at the Opera Project - what you intentions are regarding these articles? Thanks and best wishes. --Kleinzach 00:49, 30 August 2008 (UTC) P.S. None of these titles are covered in the New Grove. --Kleinzach 01:27, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I'm afraid I don't understand you question. Why would they ever be in users space? I created the (one line) articles because I believe a stub (while far from desirable) is better than nothing. If someone searched for Tieteberga with no idea what it was, found a stub saying that it was an opera by Vivaldi, that would be infinately more useful than a no result at all. If I'm missing something please let me know, but I believe as of now, that every Vivaldi opera is worthy of an article, eventualy they will be good article, and in the meantime an article that identifies them as such is better than nothing. --Selket Talk 07:31, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
P.S. I have no idea what "new grove" is and if you would be so kind, I would like to be so informed. --Selket Talk 07:33, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
The New Grove Dictionary of Opera. The main reference work for opera (covering about 1,800 works). All WP articles need to be referenced. --Kleinzach 12:48, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

To answer your original post. We put one-line information about minor, lost, unperformed operas in the composer's biographical article. That's where the reader will find them. When you say "I believe . . . that every Vivaldi opera is worthy of an article", do you mean every opera he wrote? Do you realize that half his operas are lost? Also a number of them were revived under multiple titles (e.g. Artabano, re de' Parti)? Please see the detailed lists in the French and Italian wikipedias. --Kleinzach 04:56, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

My point was that if someone finds a reference somewhere to Arsilda, regina di Ponto and has no idea what it is (or who composed it), Wikipedia should be able to provided that information. Clearly lost operas will never have much content. I'm not much attached to any one way of presenting the information, but what information there is should be in Wikipedia. If there is a List of Antonio Vivaldi operas article with Ottone in villa, etc. redirecting to it, that would be fine with me too. I just feel that Ottone in villa should not be a redlink. --Selket Talk 17:30, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, Ottone in villa is already an article and the idea of giving complete lists of operas in composer's biographies is well-established. (If you have a look at Category:Lists of operas by composer you will see that I've been working on a series of very detailed lists.) Anyway the team at the Opera Project have now done a rescue job on the titles you created. This has diverted people from projects that had a higher priority - so please don't do this again. If you want to start an article, by all means get the information and go ahead - even if opera is not something you know much about other people will help you - but don't dump a one-line title on the net to make someone else do the entire job for you. --Kleinzach 23:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

The notice

Can you tweak the notice in the lower right? It's overlapping people's statements and your replies. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 05:02, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately the recommended tweak moves it even higher up the page. I'll look for another solution. --Kleinzach 06:01, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Haven't found a solution so I've just removed it. --Kleinzach 06:31, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Isabel Bayrakdarian


How can one create a page? For example in the case of Isabel Bayrakdarian, when you search her last name it shows this message "No article title matches No page with that title exists."

Can the search lead to her page directly?

Thank you.

Canadaartistfan1 (talk) 14:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not Kleinzach, I think I can help you. She already has a Wikipedia article, Isabel Bayrakdarian, which follows the Wikipedia article naming convention, i.e., first name followed by last name. If you put Bayrakdarian in the search box and click Search instead of Go, her article comes up first in the search results. See: [4]. It's also possible to create a re-direct page such as Bayrakdarian or Bayrakdarian, Isabel which would then re-direct to Isabel Bayrakdarian. See Wikipedia:Redirect for how to do this. But make sure you understand what you're doing and the pros and cons of re-direct pages, before creating the pages. Best wishes, Voceditenore (talk) 16:24, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for answering this. --Kleinzach 22:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured sound candidates/Hunters' Chorus from The Lily of Killarney

Have another look at this. Durova bungled the description rather badly - I've fixed it - but I think it's useful as an examle of how opera was popularised during that period. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 06:23, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Useful for an article on the 19th century American popularization of opera? Yes, of course. For The Lily of Killarney article on the opera? No. Thanks for fixing the description? --Kleinzach 07:44, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
American or British - the brass band played a very similar role in both. I'll add it to Brass band where it is obviously notable =) Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 08:05, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Good. Can you fix it so it doesn't say Hunters' chorus? 'Brass band arrangement of the Hunters' chorus . . .' would be OK. I can't see how you correct sound file names. Quite a lot of them seem to be wrong. --Kleinzach 08:28, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Yeah. Did you notice the recent Carmem Miranda ones? It's actually kind of annoying to change file names - you basically re-upload then change all the links to the new filename. There's a bot, but it's very slow to take action. But I can easily change the title shown when the music is used. I'll do that (probably not necessary in brass band - it's obvious from context there - but everywhere else) Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 08:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Ah, I thought that might be the case. People always make a lot of typos, it's tough if it's so difficult to correct them. Another aspect of the difficulty of integrating sound into WP. However, ultimately it is better to correct them - look at the time we've wasted on this! If it had been correctly named/described it would have been simple to process. --Kleinzach 09:26, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

[Unindent] I'm not sure we need to rename the file - it is, for some extent of "is", the Hunter's chorus, insofar as that's how people describe instrumental works. But I have fixed the description throughout. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 13:34, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured sound candidates/Por una cabeza

On a cheerier note, you did ask for Carlos Gardel... =) Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 13:32, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

That's a good one! --Kleinzach 22:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Melba/Caruso: 'O soave fanciulla from La bohème'

I've found a duet between Caruso and Melba, Image:Enrico Caruso - Nellie Melba - La Boheme - O soave fanciulla.ogg, in shockingly good condition, save a few clicks in the first minute. I'm going to run this past Vassyana (who is a genius at cleaning up sound files) and then nominate it =) Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 11:14, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

This is famous. It was recorded in New York on 24 March 1907 (Victor C4326 95200 [5]). I'd advise against cleaning it up too much as it will take the bloom off Caruso. Of course there's a lot more of him than her. Her 1906 recording of 'Mi chiamino Mimi' would show off her voice better. Request: can we try to get the capitalization correct (see title above)? We take a lot of care with this on articles. (We have checklists of correct titles etc. e.g. The opera corpus). --Kleinzach 05:04, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
I thought I'd just get the clicks removed (where practical - there'll probably be some that need left in), then call it done. There's not enough static for it to be worth it. As for where I find my files - the best places - if you can find them - are audiophile fan sites for the singers in question. Failing that, I usually research the singer, then check common repositories of public domain recordings. I try to avoid CDs and such, simply because I'm dirt poor. =) Anyway, sorry about the error - I'll fix it when the cleaned version is uploaded. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 06:36, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Clara Butt

I'm not finding anything by her worth uploading at the moment - unless you really like hearing good contraltos paired with utter incompetents, in which case this is for you. There's a CD reissue of her work but at $50, it's a bit out of my price range. Pity, as I'd love to get that Tennyson/Sullivan track "Will he come?" from the end of it. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 17:54, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Golem (Bretan opera)

YOu may want to consider moving this back - I named it so because some day someone may want to write on John Casken's opera of the same name.............--Smerus (talk) 08:30, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

We have a guideline on this. The title is either 'Golem (opera)' or 'Golem (Bretan)' (never Golem (Bretan opera)). In this case, as there is no previous opera article, it is 'Golem (opera)' . If there is a later article on the Casken it becomes Golem (Casken). Our system may not be ideal - Grove uses numbers - but it reflects WP realities. If you look at existing titles you will see that they follow this (with a few inevitable exceptions). Best. --Kleinzach 08:42, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
thanks, noted - --Smerus (talk) 09:04, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
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