Wikipedia:Featured sound candidates/Hunters' Chorus from The Lily of Killarney

Hunters' Chorus from The Lily of Killarney edit

Brass band arrangement of the Hunters' Chorus from The Lily of Killarney

Brass band arrangement of the Hunters' Chorus from The Lily of Killarney using period instruments. During the 19th century, brass bands began to spring up throughout Europe and America. Popular music, including operas, were arranged for them by composers and music sellers eager to cash in on the free advertising they provided.

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A recording from the Library of Congress music division using period instruments for a chorus from an opera by Julius Benedict. The Lily of Killarney (also known as The Rose of Erin) is the composer's best-known work. Appears at Julius Benedict and The Lily of Killarney.

Nominate and support. Durova^Charge! 07:46, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Unfortunately, there are no voices - so this is a not a chorus. The recording is misnamed and frankly not very useful. I think it's a kind of medley of tunes. --Klein zach 13:29, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- What are you on about, a chorus does not necessarily have anything to do with voices. GerardM (talk) 06:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It's a good quality recording on period instruments and the score is also available in a good resolution file. If at some point we're able to find a free licensed recording that also has voice I'd be glad to delist and replace (we recently delisted and replaced Vivaldi when a better version was located). Durova^Charge! 19:10, 30 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  - OK. Can you verify that it is the music of the chorus even if the chorus itself is absent? If so I suggest the file be re-named. At present it's misleading. I can put this to the Opera Project but it's likely the consensus will be for deletion from the The Lily of Killarney article. It's not possible to have one standard for verification/notable of text and another for audio. Best. --Klein zach 02:56, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    - Well, the Library of Congress bibliographic notes linked from the image hosting file include the following statement: On September 27, 1974, the Music Division of the Library of Congress recreated a typical concert of brass-band and vocal music from mid-nineteenth-century America. Recorded selections from that concert are presented here. These recordings are the result of several years of research by Jon Newsom of the Music Division and many more years of experience and study by Frederick Fennell, founder and former director of the Eastman Wind Ensemble and professor of music at the University of Miami, and Robert E. Sheldon, then of the Smithsonian Institution's Division of Musical Instruments and presently Curator of Musical Instruments in the Music Division, Library of Congress. Because the purpose of these recordings is to demonstrate the style and quality of the popular music of the era, the musicians use instruments appropriate to the period. I simply used the same descriptors LoC used. Durova^Charge! 03:04, 31 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      - The Lily of Killarney is not American, but English. I think it's possible that the recording is a popular (American?) rearrangement of music from the opera. If that's so it may well have satisfied the purposes of the Library of Congress, but it may not help us with the actual opera. --Klein zach 02:55, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        Please provide a source for these assertions. The Library of Congress bibliographic notes say these are alternate names for the same opera. It appears you are opposing this candidacy and threatening to remove the file from the article based upon unsupported claims. This nomination is already sourced according to the same standards as dozens of my previous media featured content nominations. I would gladly amend it if new evidence emerges. Durova^Charge! 03:46, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        Please read what I actually said: "I think it's possible . . ." I did not overstate the case given the paucity of information. As for the nationality of the work, please see the article. Re "alternate names for the same opera" I don't understand, can you clarify? (I thought the only name we had here was The Lily of Killarney.) Thanks. P.S. Nigel Burton's Grove article doesn't mention this chorus at all, so it doesn't seem to be a particularly notable section of the work even when there is a chorus! This quote from Burton may be helpful: "His orchestration is superb: never obtrusive, always sensitive to each instrument's obbligato qualities, yet sometimes prophetic of Elgar in its subtle blends of colour." Is that what you are hearing in this clip?--Klein zach 06:57, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent)The citation specifies ...the opera The Rose of Erin (1862), originally called and still known as The Lilly of Kilarney. Now as you wrote, It's not possible to have one standard for verification/notable of text and another for audio. I agree with that statement. This discussion is very confusing: you first declare that the same citation standards must apply to music that apply to text, then when I point out that it has been properly cited and ask for competing citations, it looks very much that instead of supplying them you ask me to violate WP:NOR and attempt to second guess a professor of music and a Smithsonian scholar with my own ear. Well of course I'm not going to do that. If there's something here I'm misunderstanding please set it straight. Durova^Charge! 07:49, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose As Kleinzach wrote, an opera chorus played by a wind orchestra doesn't seem very useful — it doesn't seem to give a true impression of a work which is decribed as "The English Ring" (does Viking really say that?). While Benedict may well deserve its convincing handling of Irish idiom for the work overall, this chorus doesn't seem to be a good example — it sounds very German to me.

I fail to see how this clip lives up to any of the requirements at Wikipedia:Featured sound candidates (i.a: … should illustrate a Wikipedia article in such a way as to add significantly to that article); in fact, I think it detracts from the article: after listening to the clip, I certainly wouldn't want to hear the whole work.

Apparently, the actual chorus includes sopranos which is unusual for a Hunters' Chorus; now that I would like to hear. As it stands, it represents an unusual arrangement of a minor number from a minor opera (notwithstanding its appearance in Ulysses), played by a thoroughly unremarkable orchestra (those tubas need to work on their pitch).

@Durova: Where did you find a score of this work? I found three (very un-operatic) piano scores at the LOC, but nothing like what we hear in this clip.

I don't think this clip satifies the requirement of the first two sentences at WP:FSC. Are there any further evaluation criteria? Michael Bednarek (talk) 11:46, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support Frankly, I'm shocked that two long-time Opera people would be so ignorant about the popularisation of opera. The popular operas of the 19th century were assisted in this popularisation by brass band arrangements of their songs. For instance, according to the popular story H.M.S. Pinafore's rise to popularity was directly caused by Sullivan adding extracts of the opera to brass band concerts he was in charge of. (Modern research says that view is simplistic, though most scholars agree it helped)

This is one such arrangement, performed on historical instruments. Admittedly, Durova could have done a much better job of explaining what it is, but this is very, very typical of how a 19th century opera would be used in popular culture. Description should be changed, though, as it is misleading to leave out the words "Brass band arrangement of..." Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 06:12, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

- At least we know what it is now. Despite my extraordinary ignorance - which is really much, much greater than the black hole you have identified re. popularization of opera in 19th century America - I did get close in guessing what it was (as Michael Bednarek did). Anyway it's not a chorus, not an opera and shouldn't be elevated to featured status - as an example of opera. Thanks for sorting this out. It would have been unfortunate if it had slipped through. Best. --Klein zach 07:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I do study 19th century British opera as my main field of study - I have this bad habit of presuming that what I know is basic knowledge, when it's often really specialised. =) I do think it's encyclopedic for brass band articles, though. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 08:51, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If it's an example of 19th-century American brass band playing that's absolutely fine by me. I just don't think it should be on the opera article. --Klein zach09:20, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is to judge a soundfile; it is not to judge an article on opera. GerardM (talk) 14:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not quite that simple. WP:FSC starts with "Featured sounds is a list of sounds that add significantly to articles, either by illustrating article content particularly well, or being so striking to the ear that users will want to read the accompanying article. […] the sounds featured on Wikipedia:Featured sounds should illustrate a Wikipedia article in such a way as to add significantly to that article." The objection is that this sound doesn't do anything for this article.

Also, I can't read a judgement of the opera article in Kleinzach's remark. Michael Bednarek (talk) 16:03, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Brass band arrangements were a large part of the historical popularization of opera. I do not see why it would be inappropriate to include an example of this historically significant phenomena in various appropriate articles, including the article for the composer and operatic piece. Vassyana (talk) 17:59, 2 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose I side with Kleinzach & Michael Bednarek on this one. I don't see this satisfying the criteria. Eusebeus (talk) 02:25, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support as good music. Xavexgoem (talk) 23:19, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Promoted Hunters' Chorus from The Rose of Erin.ogg. --MZMcBride (talk) 00:30, 1 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]