User talk:Charles Matthews/Archive 31

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Speedy deletion of Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Trento

Hello Charles Matthews, this is a message from an automated bot to inform you that the page you created on February 5 2008, Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Trento, has been marked for speedy deletion by User:Zoomzoom99 (page has mainspace links, and 9 edits). This has been done because the page is either pure vandalism or a blatant hoax (see CSD). If you think the tag was placed in error, please add "{{hangon}}" to the page text, and edit the talk page to explain why the page should not be deleted. If you have a question about this bot, please ask it at User talk:SDPatrolBot II. If you have a question for the user who tagged the article, see User talk:Zoomzoom99. Thanks, - SDPatrolBot II (talk) on behalf of Zoomzoom99 (talk · contribs) 11:18, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Possible attacks on Category talk:Obsolete statistical procedures

Following your successful peace-making suggestions on the talk page Shlomo Sawilowsky, you may wish to view criticism of "boorish behavior" etc. on Category talk:Obsolete statistical procedures.Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk) 22:42, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest, on the substantive point, that you take the existence of the category to Wikipedia:WikiProject Statistics for discussion. If there is a suggested title change, it can then go to WP:CfD. (You can take it as read that I deprecate personal attacks.) Charles Matthews (talk) 07:08, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

David C. Premiership Page

My apologies, I'm not trying to insist my wording specifically, I'm just adding details from my revisions, and overwriting others. I shall try to avoid doing so. Thefloogadooga (talk) 20:57, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

OK, for obvious reasons it's a bit crowded right now. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:58, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Meetup

Thanks for the heads-up, I'll try to be there.Terry0051 (talk) 20:23, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Museum infobox

Hi Charles. Can you do me a favour and copy the text here and update Template:Infobox museum. It is locked from editing (somewhat unnecessarily) unless you are a sysop. Not much different but the map is standardised at 250px, the big red pin changed to a smart looking museum icon and the caption/labels sorted per standard. There should be no problem. I've been doing a lot of work with making city maps to feature landmarks on like Template:Location map United States San Francisco etc. I added a mapping parameter to infobox stadium this morning and eventually they will be standardised as more maps are made. But some templates are locked so will require an admin to update them . Thanks. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 11:02, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Done. Does Template:Infobox museum/doc need anything? Charles Matthews (talk) 11:09, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Nope, its just an aesthetic change. To make it look like McDonald's Cycle Center with an improved locator and label. Actually another little tweak is needed. Could you just reduce the marksize from 12 to 8 for the current one -that would be fine. Cheers Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 11:15, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Done. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:38, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Looks good, see National Museum Cardiff. Which city do you live. Does your city have any articles on here? I can create a map of the place if you want it from OpenStreetMap. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 12:37, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Fitzwilliam Museum is within walking distance. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:12, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

A present. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 15:12, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Nice. Charles Matthews (talk) 16:19, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Could you give me an indication of what part of the map is the central part of Cambridge because I can make a smaller scale map showing streets. I gather it is within the pink road ring in the middle to the west of that section. I tend to make two maps of the cities I make them e.g Template:Location map Netherlands Amsterdam Greater and Template:Location map Netherlands Amsterdam Central. The problem I saw with cropping a more central map was that many of the university colleges seem quite spread out and some wouldn't fit in it. The reason I say is because these maps can be used for articles about the colleges locating them within Cambridge.

Also I've spotted one last tweak needed to infobox museum. Default photo size is currently too small and is not inline with the map size. Can you change the image photo size to 250 and also make the marksize 10 px rather than 8px. LOL 12px was too big, 8 px too small!! It should be fully sorted then! Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 17:43, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 17:26, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

The actual centre: it's above the "C" of Cambridge on the map, just slightly to the left, a small pink area that is the marketplace. Officially it would be Church of St Mary the Great, Cambridge. I'll get onto the tweak now. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:32, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

As for colleges, there are two main groups. One is strung along the river, which runs north-south and is west of the central area. The other is along the road named "Hills Road" as it goes towards the middle of the town, east of the central area. And there are some outliers. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:41, 14 May 2010 (UTC)

Thankyou Charles. Have a look at Church of St Mary the Great, Cambridge now. I've also modified the church template to have a more appropriate marker in my view than the red dot. OK? I hope the church is marked in the right location. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 09:44, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

The church symbol is at the left end of the brown quadrilateral that is the church on the map: close enough. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:58, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Google Books and DNB.

Your research in this field is extensive and greatly eases the process of contributing to this work. Thank-you. The links I provided were done so only after exhausting other reference options, as the existing ones had gaps in coverage. As the provided links are visible on my system, my presumption is that they work for all. These links, in their current location, facilitate the ongoing DNB work. Would it be okay to leave them there, temporarily, during our ongoing effort?CUoD (talk) 12:08, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Fine - there would be every reason to tabulate as much as possible about the DNB online, in some place. It really is a complex story. The business about Google Books, the DNB and the UK may be (my assumption) something they worked out with the Oxford University Press; but there is no reason they have to tell me, or why you would be aware of it. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:47, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I agree, the story is complex, no doubt.

On a different tanget, Lindsay, John (1552-1598) should be the correct title, in my haste to make a move, his birthday was initially left as "1592". All of the links currently point to the correct page with a 1552 birth, which incorrectly redirects to the page with the 1592 birth, where the article resides. Separate topic, time permitting, please take a look at Navigation page for Volume 3. I edited yesterday, thinking value added, and adjusted several titles based upon my understanding of DNB guidelines. In an attempt to avoid working at cross purposes, would prefer a gentle nudge so that I avoid back-tracking someone else's good work.CUoD (talk) 16:43, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

That's that other wiki, with the friendly people, though! I have just moved it back over the redirect, on Wikisource. As you can see from that, in May 2009 I wasn't too clear about the guidelines myself. It has become a bit more hectic since then, but on matters to do with the titles the important thing is to converge to a shared understanding. Eventually there will have to be a pass through all the articles to sort out various issues, but I'm not too concerned with that now. The titles do matter, to the extent that we should be able to predict the title correctly and put it in listings and redlinks before it is created. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:52, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. Thanks for your help.

I wind up accessing most major university libraries across the US with this search engine. On occasion I get works from Canada and UK as well. I will pass your question along when I come across someone that can give you a more insightful response. CUoD (talk) 02:18, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Request for lifting of restriction

Please be aware that a request to lift a restriction has been made in an ArbCom case in which you were an arbitrator.[1]Anythingyouwant (talk) 09:09, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

John Thomas (bishop of Winchester)

I just thought I should tell you that this article could use a little cleanup. I added 3 tags (stub and 2 others that applied). Just thought you should know Mr. R00t ^{Leave me a Message} 01:35, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

NRHP

Hi. Can you edit Template:Infobox NRHP. Although the majority didn't take to my full change proposal there seemed to be a consensus by everyone that the current red dot is too large. It has been suggested it be reduced to 7px. Can you add |marksize = 7 to the mapping section next to where it says float=center. That should be fine as there is support for this, unfortunately not for the other changes I wanted to make. Thanks. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 09:31, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Done. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:49, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Cheers. I've just expanded Scott D. Sampson. Interesting stuff. Madagascar is incredibly biologically rich... Obviously it was during Gondwana times too! Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 10:51, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

I first read that as "biographically rich"! Current obsession showing. Madagascar does get over 100 hits on the ODNB database, some of which are early and interesting. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:04, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Biographically rich? lol. Well there are a fair few missing Malagasy politicians... Can you reedit the museum infobox. There seems to be a consensus emerging that a simple dot without a label is preferred. I just created a map of DC see White House I think it looks good with just a dot. Can you then clear the label= parameter , change the marker to Red pog.svg and the size to 7px! Sorry to be fussy but in such cases it is often a trial and error type thing. The thing is the open street maps are already cluttered enough, I think the minimist look is probably better too. How the museum infobox is fully protected but the general building one isn't beats me!!! The building infobox is used in way more articles!! Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 18:45, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Too many tabs open today. The museum template now reads:

:|mark       =Red pog.svg
:|marksize   =7
:|label      = 

So that's as required? Charles Matthews (talk) 20:52, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Thanks. Check out National Portrait Gallery (United States). I think this looks good now. Shame about the choice of colours on open street map though. I did propose our own mapping project a while back but it didn't gain momentum. A shame really as wikipedia really ought to have a formal atlas to accompany it and it would be nice to have higher quality maps of cities. Some day they'll improve, (and WikiAtlas too) I'm sure... Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 21:05, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Groan, one more tiny tweak needing doing to the museum infobox, should definately be the last then!!. See this. The alt text simply needs to be blanked. Of course an alternative is that the museum info is moved to semi protection to I can edit it. I have no idea why it is fully locked. I can't see a history of vandalism.. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 08:57, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

I think that's done. (There was another "alt" hidden in a conditional, and the example wasn't completely analogous.) Charles Matthews (talk) 09:14, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Gracias. It never ceases to amaze me though what is still missing from wikipedia. Earlier I started Eduardo Delgado, Marina Piccinini and Concert Artists Guild amongst others... Delgado and Piccinini have performed with some of the world's top orchestras yet were somehow missing.. The thing about wikipedia is that the growth is very uneven, it will amaze you at the extent of coverage in one place and then on another topic will shock you sjust for the sheer number of red links that exist. I think the best way to approach it is to create articles and those articles which are red links you start and so on in a chain effect. Not to mention the amount of work needing adding from encyclopedias. I've done a bit of work from the Universal Lithuanian Encyclopedia from Lithuanian wikipedia. No doubt it has thousands of missing articles..You probably also have many biographical dictionaries you want to plough through but also don't have the time to accomplish what needs to be done.. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 13:05, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Current DNB (sub)project is based on the 27,000 articles of the old Dictionary of National Biography. Checking remains a big task, but it looks like 50% correspond to missing topics. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:57, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

So only 13,500 missing articles from that particular dictionary then... The thing is if you start an article and then write another article from within it the red links become overwhelming. Check out Kultura (newspaper) and Valery Fokin which I just started to rid of a red link. To rid of a red link you end up with like 10 times more red links in another article!! I have to cringe when people say "wikipedia will run out of topics to write about".. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 15:45, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

See List of dissenting academies, Goulstonian Lectures and suchlike lists. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:56, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi there

Good to see you today. This was the article by Oliver Kamm which I mentioned. I was so incensed by it, that I sent him a rude message! Looks like it was about the same time you did a BBC interview. I mean every source of knowledge since the beginning of time has had errors in it. Or does he seriously think we should believe everything it says in the Times? Very disappointing. See you next time maybe! Laurence Boyce (talk) 21:07, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Just lies, really. The persistent decline in the number of Wikipedia editors may signal the end of the dominance of a remarkable online resource. It cannot happen too soon. The so-called decline was a set of bad statistics implausible to those who know how the site works. Some of the comments are on-target. Charles Matthews (talk) 06:46, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

Apologies

Thanks for leaving me a note a few weeks ago about the Cambridge meetup - apologies both for not making it and not letting you know beforehand that I'd be busy this weekend doing other stuff. Lastly, many thanks for the article on the abbot! Carcharoth (talk) 22:04, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Roger Tredgold

A google search indicates that the Oxford Dictionary of Biography has an article on him,. Can you expand it? Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 09:55, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

He was a physician and expert on industrial mental health. Yes, I can get round to adding something there. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:03, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Sawilowsky's Paradox

Hi Charles. First, let me apologize for losing my temper on the Shlomo talk page. But please check out some of the comments recently made by Edstat regarding points by User:Melcombe on various statistics pages. He's gone back to using article talk pages for name-calling and harassment [2], implying that Melcombe is not a professional while railing on Wikipedia [3], and using the occasion to complain about the Shlomo page [4], as well as more. You can see that this was not just a thing between me and him; he treats everyone who disagrees in such a way.

But that's not really what I'm here. You made a good point about whether the term "Sawilowsky's Paradox" is an established phrase in the literature of Statistics. Well, the "reference"[5] he gives for it is 1) by Sawilowsky, trying to name it after himself; 2) not in a peer-reviewed journal that would try to stop such an action, but rather a commercial book (known for the vanity press element); and 3) will not be published until August 30, 2010 [6], yet he happens to know what it states. Apparently, the phrase has never been used anywhere else, as he claims that is the reference where it is defined. So what does this say about your point of using WP for defining a topic?

Also, I was going to say that at least he hasn't resorted to using sockpuppets to badger away editors (like User:141.217.105.21 and User:68.43.236.244), but please note User:76.112.241.229, who recently jumped in on harassing Melcombe; a check on the IP address shows that it is in the same neighboorhood as User:68.43.236.244 and it contributes to the exact same topics. He has been repeatedly asked to stop the sockpuppets, and only stopped temporarily because they were blocked.

I didn't post the fact on the reference there because I guarantee Edstat would harass me worse than Melcombe. But while I may deserve it, Melcombe doesn't. He's probably the most experienced WP editor on statistics. I would appreciate it if you could provide some defense. And check on the validity of that reference. Thanks! Iulus Ascanius (talk) 03:59, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the alerts. I will try to react appropriately. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:22, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! Though as expected, instead of providing evidence, he used the article talk page for more WP:SOUP and jabs at me. I see another editor (stpasha) noted the same issues too - and was treated with enough trolling that he had to inquire about the obvious COI. Have a good weekend! Iulus Ascanius (talk) 22:24, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I would be interested in your view, Charles Matthews, of the two paradox article talk pages in general, and the questions from stpasha and my responses. In any case, as to trolling, I wrote there some time ago that I have had my say and I don't object to the AfD nomination on either paradox page, although of course I would opine to keep. And, FYI, the "other side" mentioned on that talk page was not Iulus (doesn't anyone actually read references?), (see Category talk:Obsolete statistical procedures, Requested Opinion, and [7]) although granted imho Iulus was among those who Wikipedia:Hound#Wikihounding, by which I mean one who followed various pages I have contributed to in order to criticize, and has made inaccurate accusations. Edstat (talk) 23:26, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to make my position clear. I prefer to resolve disputes by clarifying to parties what the site policies say. I think that the escalation of disgreements on Wikipedia's content by personal attacks and the dragging in of irrelevant considerations is particularly unhelpful. Where necessary, the site's processes should be used to determine outcomes. As an administrator, I don't go looking for disputes, but when I encounter one by chance (as in this case) I apply what I have learned since 2004 about approaches that are likely to resolve issues. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:11, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Approximation in algebraic groups

Hi Charles,

I think there is something wrong in the article about approximation: shouldn't the to-be-dense groups have trivial factors in all *but* a finite set of places?

Stwitzel (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:15, 7 June 2010 (UTC).

Photos

Hi Charles! I've uploaded the pictures and left them on my talk pages. Feel free to add them to the relevant meeting documentation (or any use allowed by the licence in fact!). Stephen B Streater (talk) 23:08, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Six cross-ratios

Hi, would you check the page to see if it has any merit? Tkuvho (talk) 13:17, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

No need to fork cross-ratio like that. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:29, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Stuart Cable

Request.

Done. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:31, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Nice one. Thanks. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 13:35, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Semi-protect my user page?

Dear Charles, Two unregistered (anonymous IP) editors have added the phrase "On a daily basis, I abuse young girls" to my user page (not my user talk page). Would you please semi-protect my page (if possible)? (I found documentation on how to request edits to semi-protected pages, but not how to request semi-protection status.) Thanks, Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk) 22:06, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism, rather than a systematic campaign, though. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:17, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Piotr Blass

I am currently working on earthquake prediction systems .Could you guys lift the ban against me. thanks Piotrek —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.255.219.227 (talk) 00:55, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

I remember email discussions with you. As far as I recall, you dropped out of discussions. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:18, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Sebastian Elmaloglou

An editor has nominated Sebastian Elmaloglou, an article which you have created or worked on, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "What Wikipedia is not").

Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sebastian Elmaloglou and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~).

You may also edit the article during the discussion to address the nominator's concerns but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate. Thank you. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 05:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Fatajawana

HI this is a hoax. A South African wikipedian also can't find any mention of it in any census or geonames system. I spotted the hoax initially by the way the article was written. There is also no Kogan Morrison in google books and looks like a bogus name. Please speedy. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 22:10, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Can you delete Template:Location map Kenya provinces? Its unused, redundant and inferior to Template:Location map Kenya. Thanks. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 15:33, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Question

In the times you mention I indeed - as I mentioned in my amendment request - had a problem. But that was years ago. Events of the last year made me realize that. Can you find examples of any problematic edits in my editing this year? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 09:15, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I haven't been looking, and I spend my time on Wikisource mostly anyway, at present. Look, I don't doubt your powers of advocacy, on your own behalf, or on behalf of others. You argued in the past against a year's ban of someone who had been posting very unpleasant anti-Semitic material. Have you changed? That is the question, and I'm not the one you have to convince. Newyorkbrad's attitude to these matters is not mine; so I posted a comment representing another view. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:49, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

If you refer to greg, I believed he has changed, apologized and promised to behave (he said that on wiki, and in private emails to me, when I was attempted to mentor him). I strongly believe in assuming good faith, and that people can change and become better. In the very same case, I disagreed with Malik on some issues; we have come to understanding in the years since - and he is sponsoring my amendment request. He has been an active member of our WikiProject since, and he has seen how I have changed my editing since then. Perhaps you could talk to him about that? And I would like to convince you, as I respect you as the editor and your trust is among those I am striving to earn. On the subject of Jewish history, I have contributed to a bunch of FAs, GAs and DYKs, all of them uncontroversial; now I cannot help out with those articles or create others (I was working on filling all the red links here, for example). Consider this case study: I obtained permission for free license for this image, but the current restriction prevented me from readding the image for several months (as you may be aware of, image removal by bots is automatic, but readdng them is not). If the May amendment allowing me to raise such issues on WT:POLAND wasn't passed, that image still wouldn't be there. Would the project be better off? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 10:20, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

My reasoning was based on the old case of User:Everyking, in fact. I know the arguments well enough: if remedies produce a definite improvement of behaviour, by means of an editing restriction, it may not be necessary to change them, for the benefit of the project as a whole. This is the kind of decision the ArbCom sometimes faces, and I have advocated for this kind of impersonal approach. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:25, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Your reasoning is correct, but there are two issues that need to be addressed: 1) if a threat of remedies can achieve the same result, can it be enough - or is there a need for purely punitive (instead of preventative) remedies? 2) if said remedies have produced a desired outcome (defined as lack of evidence of disruptive behavior), and if they also produce undesired outcome (like prevent creation of uncontroversial quality content that can be expected), isn't removal of said remedies a proper course to take for the benefit of the project (particular since if disruptive behavior occurrs again, such remedies - or even harsher ones - can be imposed quickly again)? Is my reasoning above flawed? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 10:31, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

It's a standard argument about Arbitration. It is also a standard argument for gamblers (if I win once, then maybe next time also). I think the ArbCom should be content to have you editing well in some different areas. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:46, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Nongshim Cup

Perhaps you could find some references and slavageit? The nominator seems too lazy to do so himself. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 14:24, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Hmm ... http://senseis.xmp.net/?NongshimCup would be an OK source, but probably for pedants Sensei's Library can't be used. There are links on that page - to pages in Korean and Russian. Worth asking at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Go. There are certainly going to be paper references somewhere. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:05, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

I had thought as much. Can you restore Alison Jacques Gallery? I've seen it around int a few articles and somebody deleted it. Once restored I'll try to ensure it meets "notability" requirements which I think will be pretty easy...Definately a notable gallery and is mentioned in many articles.. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 10:09, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Done. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:42, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I've added a few sources and info.. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 15:10, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Can you move Yei (Sudan) to Yei, Sudan? Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 09:21, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Done. Before I redirect Yei there ... that seems to have quite a number of links to it, some of which aren't correct for the place in Sudan. But should this be a dab page? Charles Matthews (talk) 09:50, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Joseph Wall (statesman)

Trying to think of the right keyword in a title for a Governor of a colony, and used the word statesman. There is presumably a better word, and as you do more on this side of the ditch, you may wish to move it somewhere more in line with your existing name pattern. billinghurst sDrewth 13:30, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Now Joseph Wall (colonial administrator). Charles Matthews (talk) 14:22, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Far better choice. billinghurst sDrewth 14:48, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

RVC Bodley please

See talk page for the other Bodley page, you created. Nice work, btw.

Searching for "Major R. V. C. Bodley" turns up quite a few things; he was biographer to Tōgō Heihachirō. Seemingly born 1892 - no date of death. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:38, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

That could give us an inbound link...also the one from his old man. Two inbounds...

Wind in the Sahara rawks, too. Much more accessible than 7 pillars.

I hope it has fewer lies, also. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:12, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't being that analytical. I've read somewhere (can't find it) that there were some things RVC exaggerated, but I think the vast majority of it, and the important points are pretty dead on. The guy really did live 7 years with Beduins and had a very cool first hand story.

If you go to Amazon, you get a list of his books. I know that is not a source, so we still lack a good reference. But the list can be used to build the bibliography. I could go to the meat library and get those books (probably ILL) and then reference the hard copies. The dust jackets may have info on him. also, many of the books are sort of Royal Road to Romance like. So they are non-fiction about the author and I guess we could reference them. Hmm...speaking of which...I OWN WITS. So we do HAVE a real refernce. Make the page!!!

This site says he died 1970. There are quite a number of books, in fact. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:24, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

• Died in the US and is in the SSDI

RONALD BODLEY 03 Mar 1892 May 1970 01950 (Newburyport, Essex, MA) (none specified) 565-14-1374 California

Can also see a number of shipping records (UK<->US) for him 1939, 1950, 1952, and some into Canada

Would also be worth checking

• American Authors and Books. 1640 to the present day. Third revised edition. By W.J. Burke and Will D. Howe. Revised by Irving Weiss and Anne Weiss. New York: Crown Publishers, 1972. (AmAu&B)
• Concise Biographical Companion to Index Islamicus. An international who's who in Islamic studies from its beginnings down to the twentieth century. Three volumes. By Wolfgang Behn. Leiden, Netherlands: Koninklijke Brill, 2004-2006. (CnBCII)
• Who Was Who in America. Volume 9, 1985-1989. Wilmette, IL: Marquis Who's Who, 1989. (WhAm 9)
• Who Was Who in Literature, 1906-1934. Based on entries that first appeared in Literary Yearbook (1906-1913), Literary Yearbook and Author's Who's Who (1914-1917), Literary Yearbook (1920-1922), and Who's Who in Literature (1924-1934). Two volumes. Detroit: Gale Research, 1979. (WhLit)

Thanks for finding his death. Yeah...I know there are a lot of books. The guy, I think, is well notable, but kind of a mystery. Hard to find good online references for him though. I might actually see if hardcopy Britanica has something on him (is that an ok reference?)

I have my copy of WITS in front of me. I could probably build a starter stub from that. At least up to 1944 (date of the book).

What is needed is some solid biographical data, though: he was later a Colonel, and in the USA.[8] Obituaries from May 1970 would be good. (Please sign with ~~~~.) Charles Matthews (talk) 21:34, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, but do we have enough to start? Perhaps the half built house will attract help?

Also, I checked NYT and found a couple book reviews from 1955. Will trawl through there a little more. Not sure if I want to pay for the articles, could just do microfiche at a library (or maybe see if they subscribe to a database.)

BTW, with this amount of work, does it make more sense to just write a real article (off wiki)?

72.82.39.78 (talk) 21:44, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

This is something - perhaps you could track it down to the original. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:42, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I have the original. It is part of WITS (DC reprinted it.) Looking for the page number now, manually. 72.82.39.78 (talk) 21:51, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

He's got a lot of citations and such if you go to google scholar72.82.39.78 (talk) 23:20, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

FYI, page is started. If you or the other biographer want to add to it, maybe you have some stuff that isn't in there yet.72.82.33.69 (talk) 08:36, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

The article is OK. If you have been evading a block all this while, I have to say that isn't a smart thing to do. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:01, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I've been obeying the block for a year. Just got started evading few days ago. Will stop. Um...RVC seems better than Ronald though. I mean...are we going to make TE Lawrence Theodore? 72.82.33.69 (talk) 09:08, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Ronald Bodley is an orthodox title, and will do for the moment. There are only a few people who are known commonly by initials (relatively speaking). I meant it - block evasion is not the way to get back to editing the site. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:14, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Mathematics/Advice on using Wikipedia for mathematics self-study

		The Random Acts of Kindness Barnstar
		For actually doing something to respond to reader queries about using Wikipedia for mathematics self-study. Radagast3 (talk) 12:52, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

National Dictionary

Hi. I've begun working through the national dictionary. I've started Islay Burns. Can you check that this is correct. If you look at Magnus's list can you tell me what the system is. The dates confuse me. When the date is cited does it refer to the event before it or after?

Islay Burns (1817-1872), theologian; educated at Aberdeen and Glasgow; D.D. Aberdeen, 1863; minister of Free St. Peter's, Dundee, 1843-64; professor in the Free Church College, Glasgow, 1864-72; wrote memoirs and works on church history.

For instance what does 1863 refer to. him beiing educated in Aberdeen or minister of Free St. Peters? Similarly 1843-64 refers to minister of Free St' Peters or professor of college? PLease clarify Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 16:46, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Ah, what you have there is just the summary version. Here's the full text:

Burns, Islay, D.D. (1817–1872), theological writer, brother of William Chalmers Burns [q.v.] , was born in 1817 at the manse of Dun in Forfarshire, where his father (afterwards translated to Kilsyth, near Glasgow) was minister. He received the chief part of his education at the grammar school of Aberdeen, under Dr. James Melvin, a celebrated teacher of Latin, and at Marischal College and University, Aberdeen, and the university of Glasgow. Studying for the ministry, he was ordained in 1843 to the charge of St. Peter's Free church, Dundee, in succession to the Rev. R. M. m'Cheyne, a man of eminent spirituality and power. In 1863 he received the degree of D.D. from the university of Aberdeen, and in 1864 was chosen to a professor's chair in the theological college of the Free church, Glasgow. In this office he remained during the rest of his life. Burns was remarkable for a combination of evangelical fervour with width of culture and sympathy, a strong æsthetic faculty and a highly charitable spirit. To the diligent and successful discharge of his duties, first as a minister of the gospel and then as a professor, he added considerable literary activity. His chief writings were: 1. ‘A Series of Essays on the Tractarian and other Movements in the Church of England,’ published in the ‘British and Foreign Evangelical Review.’ 2. ‘History of the Church of Christ, with special reference to the delineation of faith and life.’ 3. ‘The Pastor of Kilsyth,’ a sketch of the life of his father. 4. Memoir of his brother, Rev. W. C. Burns, M.A., missionary to China. A posthumous volume of ‘Select Remains’ was published in 1874.

To clarify, what appears on the lists here on Wikipedia is text taken from the "Index and Epitome" to the DNB from 1904; the volumes that later appeared as the Concise Dictionary of National Biography. Over at Wikisource we work with the full first edition text, and we are coming up to 25% done there. This particular article is not done yet. (There are probably too many typos in the summary version to make it reliable. But there is an online version to check with. I'll post it shortly.) Charles Matthews (talk) 18:27, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. The best thing then really is to prepare it in wiki source and then get a bot to generate to missing articles I think. It will definately save time at a later date. We'll have to organize somebody to do that. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 18:51, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

ALso started are Richard Burnham (baptist), Richard Burnham (clergyman), John Burneyeat ‎and Sarah Harriet Burney. Can you give me the text for those? Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 18:59, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

In /DNB store. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:26, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

As for a bot - I'd be interested in any ideas, but really the articles need much editing to make them acceptable, even for a first pass. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:33, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, some of them contain some unencyclopedic text which will need rewriting too. OK the best thing then is maybe you can download 10 or so into your "store" at a time and I can start them in stages.

Sarah Harriet Burney expanded. Removed some unencyclopedic text which said about her father saying she was a great girl or thereabouts. He would say that...And also notice how her birthdate is now available. 1772 not 1770... Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 20:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

We can come to some arrangement about that. You're now in Wikipedia:WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/DNB Epitome 07#52. Next redlink down is Jabez Burns. Then it's James Burns - that's a dab page - which is how the summaries come in, given that the James Burns in footnote 529 (merchant) is apparently not on the dab page. So it should be dabbed and then becomes a redlink. I'm happy to download such text as is needed for DNB redlinks once they have been checked as not existing under some other title. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:11, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually i'm not using the MEA pages. I'm using your fellow Cambridgeman Magnus Manske's lists. User:Magnus Manske/Dictionary of National Biography/03. James Burns I will dab shortly If you could download the next five-ten I'll start them in the next few days if it is straightforward for you. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 21:19, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, I guessed that's what you were doing - I should have taken Magnus's offer to delete them! They really have only one use now (for me) - namely to show up as backlinks where certain links have been dabbed already on the missing article pages. They contain roughly the same info, but in less convenient form that is not now updated.

I have downloaded Jabez Burns already, in fact. I'd like to get this in good shape, as a checking+dabbing operation, so that I'm only adding the text for articles that are really needed. (I download 30 on a typical day for WS purposes as it is, so I'm not frightened of the work involved, but experience shows that the DNB effort needs to be thought through, just because the thing is on a really big scale.) Charles Matthews (talk) 21:36, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Dabbing is pretty easy. I found one of the James Burns articles under Scottish shipowner but as you say the merchant named James Burns is missing. If you dab five at a time and ensure they are actually missing then there shouldn't be a problem. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 11:37, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm not going to take on tasks just to do another task, unless it fits with my view of priorities. I'll post text for redlinks that are currently there, for the moment, going forward from that point in the MEA. There is a Y protocol used on the MEA pages, and YN for articles present but needing expansion from DNB text; and I'll also post text from YN pages as I find them going forward. A better way, really, for me, is to post finished articles to s:Dictionary of National Biography, 1885-1900/Vol 7 Brown - Burthogge where they belong. I have spent half a year trying to reduce the backlog at Category:Articles incorporating DNB text without Wikisource reference! So I really would like to fill in the {{DNB}} template.

So I'll post some further text for you to work on, but I'd really like to integrate things better into the bigger picture. 11:48, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Shall we ask Magnus to delete the lists then and concentrate on dabbing/articles Missing encyclopedia articles. It is sort of giving me a headace having both lists... Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 11:53, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, might be a good time to delete them. Magnus won't mind, so I'll do it later today. Charles Matthews (talk) 12:03, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

What this needs is an injection of purpose I think! These MEA pages are a mess. I'll have section 52 properly dabbed later, if not the whole Page 7. It would be best to tackle a section at a time by page I think. Might I also recommend some sorting is done and we move existing articles to an existing section, an existing articles but in need of DNB text to another section and completely missing articles to another section. This would greatly help me for one. I find the current system a little higgle piggledy. It would be best in my view to sort them into solid criteria sections. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 12:16, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

John Burroughs needs dabbing but there is no note to say who he was only a died 1643. Can you find out who he was? Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 12:27, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

That was John Borough, sub-stub. Caveats: the MEA list contains such things (in effect a redirect), and also some names that don't correspond to an article, but a sub-article. Sub-articles are quite pesky. Where a DNB article on person X contains a sub-biography of a person Y (named in small caps), person Y will appear in the MEA listing as an entry but not in the Wikisource volume ToC. Oh dear ... I'm making it sound complicated ... Charles Matthews (talk) 12:35, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

A little... I've fully dabbed section 52 now. The best way I think to tackle this is to work together. I'll dab a section. You check the blue linked articles within it then to see if it needs DNB text. Once you'e done that mark the articles which need it with your ticketing system. Then I'll start the entirely of the missing articles in a section using the text you download to your user space. Then once that is done we should remove all of the articles which have articles and DNB text within them leaving only articles which need expansion from DNB. Sound good? Actually on second thoughts I'll use your ticketing system seems best so we can keep track of what is done. If you could now check the articles in section 52 for needing DNB text I am ready to complete the missing articles once you are ready. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 12:47, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I'll post you some more text. I really have to go now to deal with today's task on WS. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:41, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

Some more please.. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 15:02, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

I've added to the end of vol.7. Charles Matthews (talk) 15:16, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks I'm also currently ploughing through French egyptologist biographies like Jean Vercoutter as well as working with another editor processing a PD Biographical dictionary of Chile from Spanish into english from 1901. Plenty to keep me busy.. Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 16:17, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

OK that lot is done. When you have a moment can you flesh out George Burrows, 1st Baronet with the DNB info on your download page. Meanwhile I'll get along with dabbing the others on page 7.

You missed downloading 4 in the 52 group:

• John Burnett (merchant)
• John Burnett (advocate)
• Christopher Burrough
• Sir James Burrough (architect)

Section 1 is now dabbed and waiting too.....

Dr. Blofeld ^{White cat} 12:47, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

S

DNBIE

I have noticed that you have made similar edits to this one. I know why you are making the did but I would like to talk about it because I am not sure it is correct. The reason for this is attribution of sources. In quite a few cases I have copied the text from the {{DNBIE}}, and although the same information is of course held in the {{DNB}} the original copyright was on the {{DNBIE}} and I think we have a moral obligation to keep that citation in place until such time as the structure of the text from {{DNBIE}} the is removed. As the text in the {{DNBIE}} is derived from the {{DNB}} I would agree to adding the {{cite DNB}} as well (chiefly for practical access reasons). Indeed what needs doing in cases like this is that the text from the DNB should be copied into the article and wikified. I'll put you talk page on my watch list for the next few days so if you reply here in the next 3 days I'll see it. -- PBS (talk) 09:10, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

To be clear, I would avoid removing an attribution to DNBIE when that is what it was. In the case of a citation of facts to the DNBIE, it will almost always be adequate to use {{DNB Cite}} to send the reader to the original DNB article from which the DNBIE was summarised. (There are a few errata to be taken account of - in due course those will be shown in the Wikisource version of the DNB, and they can be added case-by-case.) So, I think I'm not taking the {{DNBIE}} from the end of articles at this point? I'm certainly not intending to. In any case your work of this kind is low down the list of referencing priorities, and I'll not insist on it at all. There are much more urgent things. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:18, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Everard Digby (scholar)

Is this Everard the father of Everard Digby, which I've recently been expanding? I'm finding conflicting reports of if he is, or is not. Mostly old sources say it might be the same person (although others question that), modern sources skip him completely. Parrot of Doom 11:22, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Seems not. The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography states that Everard Digby, father of the conspirator, died in 1592, and that the scholar died in 1605. Charles Matthews (talk) 18:37, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. It seems a little odd that so little is written about his family, especially as Digby was knighted. I wonder why... Parrot of Doom 19:03, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Lancelot Ridley

Do you have any information on Lancelot Ridley, father of Mark Ridley? If as I suspect you do, but the article has not been created in wikisource space yet, may I be of assistance to create it? --Senra (talk) 22:25, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, Lancelot Ridley is in the DNB. You can see that Wikipedia:WikiProject Missing encyclopedic articles/DNB Epitome 48 comes up as one of the links to the redlink; and I have checked that it is the right Lancelot Ridley. Sometimes people listed in the Epitome come as subarticles of another biography, but he does have one of his own. In fact I'm working my way through volume 48 right now. s:Page:Dictionary of National Biography volume 48.djvu/291 is where to find the article, and in the normal course of events I'd be creating it tomorrow. If you want to try your hand at proofreading it yourself, go ahead (the OCR text is not too bad in this case). Charles Matthews (talk) 07:09, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

One page proofread (s:Page:Dictionary_of_National_Biography_volume_48.djvu/291). What is the next step? In this particular case (for Lancelot Ridley anyway, he is on one page only. I am guessing there is some form of article creation within wikipedia space using transclusion from the proofread document. However, I also guess there are conventions I need to be aware of plus template tags. Again, I would like to help but I do not want to create work for you. Therefore feel free to tell me to go away

I just noticed I did not take full account of formatting conventions within s:Help:Side_by_side_image_view_for_proofreading so i am re-editing the page to fix this

--Senra (talk) 10:56, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I'll reply on s:User talk:Senra. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:58, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

(Edit conflict in s:Page:Dictionary_of_National_Biography_volume_48.djvu/291) - I was trying to fix the formatting as I had read the formatting conventions AFTER proofreading the page - you got the before me --Senra (talk) 11:12, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

PlanetMath import

Hi Charles, I noticed that you have been importing some articles from PlanetMath under CC-by-SA. A while back there was a discussion on WT:WPM that this was no longer allowed due to licensing problems (I guess a change in Wikipedia's license). Are the licenses once again compatible? If so, should there be an announcement so that more editors can get involved? Sławomir Biały (talk) 11:45, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I was going by http://planetmath.org/?op=license, which says they relicensed to CC-by-SA on July 24, 2009. As they say, I am not a lawyer. By all means start a thread: my assumption is that importing under these circumstances should be OK. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:53, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, that seems to be consistent with the m:licensing update of last April. It's strange that no one announced this at WT:WPM. I suspect that the PlanetMath import has largely been halted because most editors are under the false impression that PlanetMath was still off limits. Sławomir Biały (talk) 00:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

DNBfirst

{{DNBfirst}} I have updated this template to call {{DNB Cite}} I was not sure if we should leave the Category:Missing encyclopedic articles (Dictionary of National Biography) in it or not. I'll leave the decision up to you.-- PBS (talk) 02:53, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Nathaniel Rich (soldier)

Hi Charles,

Re: the above, I presume you have access to the ODNB. Could you please verify that the rewrite at Talk:Nathaniel Rich (soldier)/Temp is clear of issues, and put your findings at Wikipedia:Copyright problems/2010 July 22? Thanks. MLauba ^(Talk) 09:11, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Done. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:32, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a bunch. I'll proof a page or two of the DNB for that :) MLauba ^(Talk) 10:09, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Stretham

Thank you for tidying up the Notable people section for Stretham. Much appreciated. As per WP:UKTOWNS, this section is intended to be prose, not a list. I accept it is list-like as it stands at the moment. It is my fault for not tagging the article with an {{under construction}} hat. Still, it looks neater as per your recent edit, so thank you. I will be converting that section to prose as my research progresses --Senra (talk) 21:19, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Lancelot Ridley

Hi. I've nominated Lancelot Ridley, an article you worked on, for consideration to appear on the Main Page as part of Wikipedia:Did you know. You can see the hook for the article here, where you can improve it if you see fit. Senra (talk) 15:14, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

OK. Puzzled by the comment about Henry VIII! What do they teach in schools? Charles Matthews (talk) 15:27, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Agreed. May be better if you edit it back as my edit would look defensive :) --Senra (talk) 17:06, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Working on Plumian Professor of Astronomy and Experimental Philosophy

I am sorry this will not be in the usual format.

I see you have worked on the Plumian Professor of Astronomy and Experimental Philosophy Wiki page at least twice and so I assume you have an interest in its accuracy.

I plan to send you a personal email about this posting.

I noticed there was a request for a citation about the establishment of the Professorship.

I have provided some information that you may think appropriate to add and you may be able to edit in correctly or advise another person about it's existence. It is here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Plumian_Professor_of_Astronomy_and_Experimental_Philosophy (for some reason unknown to me I am not able to use the Wiki linking format on this occasion.

RegardsStranger on the shore (talk) 14:33, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be a fair amount of detail on Plume's will in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography article about him; and that article cites Petchey. It notes that "The intentions behind this bequest are obscure". In these circumstances we'd probably attribute Petchey's views to him ("... in Petchey's view ..."). By all means mail me with anything more (sidebar mail link). Charles Matthews (talk) 14:52, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Stubs

Hello, I was wondering if I could ask you for some further help? BrownHairedGirl has nominated for speedy deletion, and then deleted them herself, many articles I've written. She didn't notify me and I don't watch them all anymore, but the ones which have definitely been deleted are:

1. Edward Baeshe
2. George Horsey
3. John Brograve
4. Sir Marmaduke Wyvill, 1st Baronet
5. George Catelyn
6. Arthur Porter (MP)
7. Richard Pates (MP)
8. Nicholas Arnold
9. Thomas Atkins (MP)

I have spent a lot of time, as have you, referencing these, but she is deleting all on grounds of brevity, that they add nothing more than is in the constituency article. I don't know if she is planning to keep deleting others I've created or if she's finished. Are you able to offer any advice on how I deal with this and are you able to restore the deleted articles so I can continue to work on them?

Thanks again for all your help, Boleyn (talk) 19:50, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, first, keep the redlinks up where they can be seen. Second, the lack of notification is a flagrant violation of etiquette, at the very least. Given the history and the provocative edit summaries, there seems to be a behavioural issue with this editor. Thirdly, the comments made recently about winding down and a vacation seem to be put in question by all this.

Please do bear in mind that articles deleted can be restored easily, as a practical matter. These deletions are apparently against our good practices, but this should not lead you to think either the work is lost, or that you should retaliate in any form. If you can, concentrate on working on other articles, and there will be some prospect of dealing with this. I think the comment "recently created article" for something eight weeks old can and should be queried, since I cannot see that CSD A10 is intended to be used in this fashion. I find http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&user=BrownHairedGirl depressing reading right now, but something can be done, without forcing the issue here. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:28, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. If I haven't duplicated any, there are 63 articles I've created which have been deleted today and some still have hangon tags on top of that. I won't try to recreate any at the moment as it's too depressing an idea. Best wishes, Boleyn (talk) 22:02, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I put back Edward Baeshe last night (ODNB), and John Brograve (DNB) this morning. I had a thought on referencing last night that proves to be fruitful. The Venn database of Cambridge graduates at http://venn.csi.cam.ac.uk/ACAD/search.html will accept a full text search in the Text box for "M.P. for Preston" (needs full stops in M.P.) and return a useful list. For example "M.P. for Truro" (no quotes) gives this list of eight people. You can see the referencing style in the Brograve article. I think with some work this can be a very helpful source. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:06, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Richard Pates (MP) can certainly be recreated on the basis of Richard Pates, M.P. for Gloucester, by A. L. Browne (PDF), found here. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:56, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I've recreated some, adding references (including the one above), but they have still been made into redirects to constituency articles as too short. I'm not sure exactly what standard they need to reach before BHG will not delete them. I tagged some as underconstruction so I could look for more reliable sources, but BHG just removed the underconstruction tag and mafe it a redirect again. Some can easily be recreated but the sixteenth-century politicians have little about them anyway. Oh well, I'll save what I can. I so hoped this had finished. Anyway, thanks again, Boleyn (talk) 17:34, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm starting to work at this more systematically offline, now. John Gordon Drummond Campbell, Thomas Samuel Beauchamp Williams, Robert Thomas Jones are now back. Procedurally this is a right mess, but please don't be disheartened: there seem to be plenty of ways to make substantive improvements, and they don't need any escalation of the conflict of views that underlies what is going on. Charles Matthews (talk) 17:46, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

You can view those deleted at User:Dr. Blofeld/DNB. Boleyn please use this situation to understand that you must source articles upon creation, otherwise she wouldn't have had a grounds to delete them. Dr. Blofeld - 15:36, 18 July 2010 (UTC) 18:27, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure that is the only way to describe the situation. But it is certainly true that those articles that can easily be sourced can be recreated. My preference is to go a little bit further with expansion, to settle things once and for all. I was happily improving a few of Boleyn's articles as they came up on my watchlist (I have watchlisted them all). These deletions are essentially a diversion from my wish to improve them where I can (and tag etc.) The summary deletions and redirections simply prevent my doing that work; and they rather concentrate attention on those articles that are harder to reference (rather than for example adding DNB text to get rapid expansion). By the way, I noticed that s:Scudamore, John (DNB00) has enough to create John Scudamore, 2nd Viscount Scudamore (scroll most of the way down). Anyone want to do this? Charles Matthews (talk) 18:35, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Please expand and ref User:Dr. Blofeld/Sir William Russell, 1st Baronet, of Wytley User:Dr. Blofeld/Thomas Stanley (1749–1816)

and then restore. I'll try to do the ones I can find a source for. Dr. Blofeld - 15:36, 18 July 2010 (UTC) 19:02, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

That's one of the trickier ones - there are loads of William Russells, and I think that one is of the "Russell of Strensham" family. Something like '''Sir William Russell, 1st Baronet, of Wytley''' (c. 1602–1669), was an English politician. (Also Witley, Russell of Strensham). The manor of [[Great Witley]] passed out of the family, sold by his son Thomas during his lifetime.<ref>http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=42912</ref> He was the [[Member of Parliament]] (MP) for [[Worcestershire (UK Parliament constituency)|Worcestershire]] and one of the [[Russell Baronets]]. == [[Luboš Motl]] == As a person who has made significant contributions to this article, you may be interested to know it has been nominated for deletion. Your comments are welcome at [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Luboš Motl (3rd nomination)]]. [[User:Robofish|Robofish]] ([[User talk:Robofish|talk]]) 16:27, 5 August 2010 (UTC) == References == *http://thepeerage.com/p1932.htm#i19317

But that's not all checked. I was spending too much time on that one and decided to park it. Also for that Thomas Stanley. I didn't get much specific at all, something about lobbying in parliament for dropping the excise tax on fustian. I mean these are interesting historically, but they are not quick referencing jobs. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:15, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Can you ensure that all of the deleted articles at User:Dr. Blofeld/DNB are restored (in due course). If needs be can you restore them to Boleyn's workspace and ask her to source them before posting? Dr. Blofeld - 15:36, 18 July 2010 (UTC) 19:16, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, that's not too reasonable a request. Firstly, there are around 60 of them, and I have other things to do. Certainly I can get the wikitext. That is actually what I'm doing offline right now. Please don't fire so many requests at me, when I'm steadily doing the work in my own way. The articles still need sorting, and represent only 10% of the 700 anyway, so I think it would be better if we worked at it all quite calmly. I think you'd be showing more tact not to be suggesting that Boleyn has to work over this all again, anyway. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:24, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Excuse me? Tact? I've bent over backwards to help Boleyn and you Charles and have spent alot of time giving her advice and informing her what a potentially great editor she is. Her articles are greatly appreciated but she knows that she should have sourced them first time. The fact is that they were deleted and unless somebody (an admin) restores them who cares about them or Boleyn herself recreates them just how are they supposed to be restored? I would recreate them all myself if I had access to ONDB. I am not asking ou to do any work, just restore the articles in due course to a place where i can help Boleyn source/work on them. Charles, Boleyn knew that the articles would need further work as she says she planned on returning to them. As it stands we are back to square one because we have nothing to work or built on. Look I'm trying to help, you've responded in a manner I find inappropriate in regards to my relationship with Boleyn. I know you are extremely busy on wiki source . Dr. Blofeld - 15:36, 18 July 2010 (UTC) 19:39, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, you know what I think. There are a few thousand candidate DNB biographies on WS needing creation here. I should be working on WS today, but in fact I have been feeling lousy and need a break. I'm not jumping to attention just because we have an admin here on WP who is behaving unreasonably with mass deletions. I'm doing the same work on the deleted stubs as I would if I had encountered them any other way. There is the DNB material to use where it fits; there is the Venn database that picks up some other cases. The ODNB gets some cases. Given the article name and what links to the redlink you know just about what it is the article anyway. Google is then our friend.

When I have done a pass through the articles, and seen which constituencies are involved with the MPs, I'll post wikitext on your page. I'm not prepared to treat this all as a matter of urgency, since it isn't. Everyone should remain very calm and think what to do that is constructive. Demands for things to happen quickly are what have created this mess. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:56, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I know Charles, which is why my tone has been raised the last hour or so as I think these deletions are wasting our preicous time when we have things to be done. INo creating stubs without sources isn't ideal but deleting them makes it even more diffcult as it doesn't allow Boleyn or anybody to build upon them so it means somebody has to spent the time restoring them. I was not asking you to write them all Charles, just help Boleyn not have to recreate the original text so she wouldn't have to do it again, Thats what I was trying to say. I would certianly not ask you to write 60 articles in a matter of hours when you have the huge task underway on WS. No this isn't a priority, your work at WS is a priority but i just don't want to see Boleyn despair at the thought of having to recreate them all from scratch. Dr. Blofeld - 15:36, 18 July 2010 (UTC) 20:09, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Can we just agree that Boleyn is doing fine when she is creating new stuff from DNB text, and this is a good direction? I'm going to whittle away the deleted ones until I get a good idea of the cost-benefit analysis of saying they must all come back soon. I'm pasting another one back right now. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:14, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

You've never made an error I gather. Dr. Blofeld 14:18, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Plenty. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:12, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Hugh Candidus

Have you any information you could add to Hugh Candidus? I am aware of ODNB (subscription required) and s:Hugh (fl.1107%?-1155%?) (DNB00). You may be aware of other useful sources. If not, no worries. Be aware that currently, Hugh Candidus redirects to Hugh of Remiremont. I intend copying the contents of my user page to replace that redirect when I am ready. I also have some more information building at User_talk:Senra#Hugh_Candidus --Senra (talk) 20:54, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Full text search of the ODNB site turns up a number of hits, only one being the cardinal. But you seem to have covered the main points: Oswald's arm, Robert of Swaffham, Joseph Sparke. Those two articles would be worth creating: I can do Sparke easily. I thought it would be an orphan, but he turns up in Hereward the Wake. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:38, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Hugh Candidus created with a Not to be confused with Hugh of Remiremont note at the top. I think I found all wikipedia references and wikified them accordingly --Senra (talk) 14:28, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Ichabod Charles Wright

Hi do you have a DNB entry on this fellow? Also anything on his MP son? Dr. Blofeld 12:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I'll try and create the article later today. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:13, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I've nominated Cheshunt Great House for a joint DYK seems as it was you bothered to start expanding the article in the first place. If you could find out where it was located coordinates etc this would be useful. Also the abbey is in Essex but the book says Cheshunt was in Hertfordshire. Any idea? Dr. Blofeld 13:22, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Ooops, that may be premature. Not all of it checks out with what I find easily. Also it's not up-to-date: seems it burned down in 1965, and was excavated in 1969. There is some odd history of what was happening there in the 1930s (Freemasonry). It was called "manor of Andrewes" as well as Andrews, and googling for that convinced me I didn't have the whole story. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:54, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

This explains how it came into the Shaw family. There is some confusion about 1750 and William/John Shaw, but that is the year when it passed down a generation anyway. Charles Mayo mentioned there is Charles Mayo (professor), created last night before I'd had enough. Charles Matthews (talk) 13:58, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Coordinates are given here. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:02, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Well the British History source was written in 1912 when the building still existed so I'm changed the tense. I'm going by the sources I've used over the Shaw family, mentioned in 1819 publication etc. Hertfordshire Genealogy says it was William Shaw in 1750, the British History says John Shaw.. Another JOhn Shaw demolished part of it in 1820 so its difficult to be 100% sure of what happened. Dr. Blofeld 14:12, 9 August 2010 (UTC) I've spotted a few errors in the DNB wiki source text today like nobby...Only minor though.. Dr. Blofeld 19:03, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Easy to correct (in the Ainslie article on WS, just click on the little [188] to go to the page). You did know that? Charles Matthews (talk) 19:08, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I've spotted an error in Ashwick which I need your helping in sorting out. It appears there are at least two villages of the same name in Somerset. One is in the east and larger ands the other is more of a hamlet, northwest of Dulverton. I discovered this by the article on Ashwick House but the Ashwick article much further to the east claims that the house is located there. I have a feeling that most of the info there is about the eastern village but the house and some other details may be about the other. I need your help to sort out which info is for which and split into a dab and different articles. Dr. Blofeld 20:25, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Mmm a bit of research tells me that most of the info in the Ashwick article is indeed about the eastern village as it is in Mendip district and the church is also in the eastern one, the house though is not located there, unless there is another house of the same name which is doubtful. i'll remove the house link and create a hamlet stub I think.

Actually there appears to be two buildings named Ashwick House in both places!! Dr. Blofeld 20:29, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Cambridge meetup

Hallo Charles -- thanks for your message, I missed seeing the notice about the July meeting before it happened. I've only just logged in for the first time for a while. I'll try and catch the next. I think Stephen S was there the previous meetup wasn't he (was that the 'small world' item you were referring to)? Terry0051 (talk) 11:39, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Indeed - we figured that out as I was walking him back towards the station. These days we get notices placed on people's watchlists by mysterious but effective technology. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:48, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

John Gordon Drummond Campbell

Hi Charles

I further expanded John Gordon Drummond Campbell, which you had expanded a bit, and have nominated it for DYK using as the hook a fact added by you, and listing it as a joint nomination.

I hope that's OK with you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:52, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

That's fine. I don't follow DYKs, but others do. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:02, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Sir Robert Ainslie, 1st Baronet

Hi, The wiki source indicates he died in 1804. This is false as the article itself says 1812. Dr. Blofeld 11:24, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

That's correct - the ODNB says 1812 also. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:51, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

I think whoever listed it saw died 1804 in the family section, somebody in his family died in 1804 not him. That's easily done. For referencing purposes I'd be grateful if you could add the full DNB book citation on ref 36 of Bede. Its about Albinus (abbot) aiding him. Dr. Blofeld 14:44, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Done. Charles Matthews (talk) 15:26, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Dr. Blofeld 17:48, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Phew 34 DNB articles started today. It takes longer than you think doesn't it!! Dr. Blofeld 21:39, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

E-mail

Hi there, I sent you an E-mail. Best. Acalamari (from Bellatrix Kerrigan) 11:45, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Go Portal?

Hi there. There is new talk about creating a [[Portal:Go]] , much as Portal:Chess.

Your ears may be burning. Whenever you may have any time, would you like to apply your experience / skills / knowledge? If you could review the ideas at the current discussion in the above link, or add to them of course, your thoughts would be most welcome. Thanks, T9. Trafford09 (talk) 17:15, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Cheshunt Great House

— Rlevse • Talk • 12:02, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

1911

I am in the process of expanding {{1911}}. I think it is desirable to do the same to the {{DNB}} template. However it would make sense to expand them in a similar way. So perhaps you would like to take a look at Template talk:1911#Proposal to replace code with a wrapper around cite encyclopedia and comment as you see fit. -- PBS (talk) 04:54, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Please see Template talk:DNB. Also FYI User talk:Dr. Blofeld#DNB (and Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Dictionary of National Biography auto-generated content -- PBS (talk) 02:04, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

New DNB WikiProject

Excellent job setting that up. I haven't been adding the DNB articles in the last week or two because I was hoping we could code a bot to process them with minimal manual work. But in thinking about it they would need to be verified and 4000 is a lot of articles to have to plough through I think. I guess its not essential we have the text on here now so to speak but it would be nice to have the articles on here and not have this mass of content missing. Hopefully the new project can attract some more editors to help. Dr. Blofeld 09:28, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Just started on that this morning, but I'll be letting various people know: quite a number of editors are in some way interested in DNB stuff. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:29, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

• Another voice for "excellent idea"! There's certainly a lot of promise here, potentially more so than for things like the 1911 project - I'll have a think about the best ways to approach the problem. Shimgray | talk | 09:59, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

OK, fine. There has been plenty of work on the DNB behind the scenes, but it seems that now might be the moment to press ahead with a formal project. My own view would be that (in say the area of British history) there is a good match between what enWP lacks and what the DNB offers. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:10, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, the topics the DNB was fond of (antiquiarianism, theologians, academics, all pre-1900) dovetail nicely with our modern bias and general lack of interest in academic biographies. There's a lot of low-hanging fruit to be gathered here. Shimgray | talk | 10:26, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm still looking for the right idea to get lists of redlinks by topic. A list of antiquaries that need doing, that sort of thing. Currently the best idea is like identifying main DNB authors by topic (e.g. s:Author:John Knox Laughton was the main author of naval biographies, s:Author:Alexander Gordon for nonconformists). A great deal can be done that way in some areas. But for, say, the East India Company, I'd probably have to do a full text search on the ODNB site, producing a list that then has to be filtered by the existence of old DNB articles, then see what is a redlink here ... it looks quite laborious. We're about two years off completing the DNB text on WS, when it would become sensible just to use a search engine on keyword+DNB there. This counts as an unsolved problem, at present, though we should probably do something ad hoc. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:48, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

You could use the theme lists from the ODNB site to start off with, but that seems a little close to the wind for my liking - they're manually selected and curated, after all, so even if they don't strictly have an IP burden it feels like there ought to be one.

Would lists-of-incumbents work to start with? We would end up doing these anyway ("oh, check we've got all the Bishops of Durham", or Viceroys of India, or Lord Chancellors, or what have you), and whilst they're something Wikipedia has already worked on to mostly abolish redlinks, they'd be good for ensuring decent coverage rather than minimal stubs. We can work on these whilst wikisource ploughs through the remaining articles, and then move onto more complex lists ("everyone involved with the Cameronian movement") when we've a bigger dataset to draw from.

This doesn't give the immediate benefit of "lots of new articles", mind you. I've access to a print copy plus the supplements at work (it's kept in storage on the grounds it'll be useful sometime!) so I'll have a dig through the index volumes to see if there's anything there that can be adapted to topic lists. Shimgray | talk | 11:15, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. What should really happen is this: categories and Portals are set up on Wikisource to handle any topic of interest. We're a long way (on Wikisource) from having that degree of development, and the new DNB articles arrive now at about 1000 per month. What would be nice to see is a degree of mutualism between WP and WS on this issue, so that various lists used for the DNB project here also get used to stimulate bits of topical development on WS (where the orientation is traditionally towards texts rather than topics, explaining why the issue is still partly up in the air). Charles Matthews (talk) 11:26, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Cuncolim

Hi Charles. I came across an article you penned on the massacre of five jesuit priests in Goa in 1583 which was taken from the Catholic Encyclopaedia. I have completely re worked the article to convert it into a historical description of the incident with background events as well as the aftermath of the massacre. Also, its been renamed to Cuncolim Revolt. Its still a bit raw with all the references and all, but I'd appreciate your input. Tigerassault (talk) 13:59, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I've had a look already and made some copy edits. Thank you for your work. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:05, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

Ely and Littleport riots 1816

I have an article brewing that would benefit to have your expertise directed at it briefly. Also talk page with to do list. I am looking for background detail on the protagonists; they seem to be in no special order:

• Reverend Sir Henry Dudley: the fighting vicar/bishop? Johnson (1893) p. 15 a prebendary well known as a companion of the Prince Regent and possibly sole resident magistrate though this may be Metcalfe (see Metcalfe below)

* Reverend John Vachell: Vicar of St James, Littleport until 22 May 1816 (day of riots) did not return after riots  Done --Senra (Talk) 21:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC) * Reverend William Metcalfe: Which one? CCED has two. Johnson (1893) p. 15 says minor canon and precentor of the Cathedral, (possible sole resident magistrate (presumably Ely) but punctuation is such that sole resident magistrate may refer to Dudley

"Metcalfe, William (MTCF771W)". A Cambridge Alumni Database. University of Cambridge. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Based on Venn, I'm going with Metcalfe as sole resident magistrate for Ely

--Senra (Talk) 14:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

 Done --Senra (Talk) 21:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

• Henry Law: Involved somehow due this but not much written in reliable sources; Johnson (1893) rector of Downham (Downham Market or Little Downham?)
• Reverend Peploe Ward: Goulden (2008) p. 27 joined Metcalfe and Law to produce proclamation (see picture in article). I think this was a sham but only Goulden says this. It would be nice to corroborate this
• John Byng: thought to be officer in-charge of dragoons that helped to quell the riots
• Edward Christian: Lord Chief Justice of Isle of Ely but I think deposed for the Littleport riot trials by who? Special commission noted in Times but would like to read more on said commission: The Times, Thursday, Jun 20, 1816; pg. 3; Issue 9866; col D - Special Commission At Ely. Wednesday, June 19. Goulden (2008) implies he was a bumbling idiot (as a judge); Bell (1994) that he was a hanging judge

* Mr Justice Abbot: presiding judge appointed by special commission * Mr Justice Burrough: presiding judge appointed by special commission

I guess these are Charles Abbott and James Burrough; the latter is in the DNB. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

I am not so sure about Charles Abbot, first Baron of Colchester (1757&ndash1829). His ODNB entry does not mention Littleport and he was speaker of the house of commons at the time of the riots --Senra (Talk) 15:04, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Just arrived at the same conclusion as I was constructing this query so I think it is Charles Abbott first Baron Tenterden (1762–1832) --Senra (Talk) 16:24, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

 Done --Senra (Talk) 21:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

• William Hobhouse: leader of Crown prosecution. Goulden (2008) p. 29–30 implies Hobhouse was sent by government to report on Christian
• Mr John Bacon: active constable from Bow Street
• Also, Johnson (1893) p. 22 footnote 1 says 69th Regiment was a regiment of Hanoverians; German mercenaries? I cannot find support for this

Hmmm - perhaps the above is a little too much to ask but then again, I am looking for someone to help produce this article

--Senra (Talk) 20:28, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I seem to have landed myself in trouble here. Charles Matthews (talk) 20:50, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

:Vachell stayed on as vicar in title until 1830; but he appointed a curate from 1817. See: "Jermyn, George Bitton (JRMN808GB)". A Cambridge Alumni Database. University of Cambridge.; "Vachell, John (VCL782J)". A Cambridge Alumni Database. University of Cambridge..  Done --Senra (Talk) 23:06, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

:Here's a further gem from the Venn database: "Griffith, John (GRFT791J)". A Cambridge Alumni Database. University of Cambridge.. Not that I approve, but that has DYK written all over it. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:03, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

 Done --Senra (Talk) 21:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

:This is from an 1816 account in the Annual Register, which has a great deal of other East Anglian context that I have seen so far. Charles Matthews (talk) 15:40, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Just checking it now but I think this is already in the bibliography as Burke (1817) pp. 71–72 --Senra (Talk) 16:33, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Ely and Littleport riots 1816 now published with redirect from Littleport riots; posted with three-hooks to DYK and posted to peer-review even though this is still work to do --Senra (Talk) 00:11, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Robert Anton and Richard Arnald

What's up with the wiki source link and red linked category? Dr. Blofeld 19:49, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Have since been edited. {{DNB}} now needs a named parameter, as in {{DNB|wstitle=}}. User:Philip Baird Shearer is working on consistency across the various templates that might be linking to Wikisource. He is tidying up the older way with AWB now. Charles Matthews (talk) 06:37, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I see. Can you move Herowabad to Khalkhal, Ardabil. Khalkhal is far more common. Dr. Blofeld 21:02, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Done. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:56, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Attribution

Although the WP:PLAGIARISM#Public domain sources does not say it, the next section WP:PLAGIARISM#Copyright expired sources and the section WP:PLAGIARISM#Where to place attribution both say in the WP:FNNR section(s). Not the "External links" section. This is because the guideline cite, layout and external links assume that the sources used to support a Wikipedia article are in the areas defined by WP:FNNR (usually with section headings of Notes and References), while links in "Further reading" and "External links" are incidental to the Wikipedia article. -- PBS (talk) 11:34, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm, where it says "In such cases consider ..." that's not prescriptive. Why I said "External links" is only because it is the last of the end-sections by priority (standard order), and the useful place to put attributions, in my view, is right at the end of the page. This is to make it easier to check copyvio, by scrolling to the end. But there is a certain greater logic, also, in the cases where a link is given in an attribution template, it is an "external link". It doesn't look to me as if the MoS pages have really caught up yet. I hope we'll settle down to having attributions right at the end. They tend to stack up - can easily have DNB + CE + EB1911, and they really should be out of the way of the reader. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:45, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

It means that if Attribution at the end (outside of WP:FNNR), when short citations are used, then one has to have the line twice (or very similar ones) once in the References section and again after the external links. In the long run as most articles get in-line citations, then the DNB general citation will have to be in the WP:FNNR section, so I see no point in duplicating the citations twice on the same page.

I am at the moment (as you are no doubt aware) running AWB over {{DNB}} atering the unnamed parameter to wstitle=, and I am coming across a few examples of attribution at the bottom after "External links" but with no WP:FNNR section and the article gets slapped with a {{unreferenced}}, because most editors are not familiar with the attribution concept.

So far of the several thousand I have done ({{Catholic}} and {{DNB}}), they tend to come singularly or in pairs, I have so far only see one page where there were three.

BTW it is not prescriptive because I wrote it that way :-) Partly to give people the freedom to make their own decision (as you are doing) and partly for socio-political reasons: with yet another new guideline, guidance tends to be accepted better as a suggestion, and it only become prescriptive later when it can be shown that the majority of editors use the guidance.

The reason I suggested that attribution was simply a bold line and not a section was three fold. The first was to trigger a TOC on a stub for one extra line was a complication that most editors could do without. The second was I saw it as a rearrangement of the lines already in the References section and as such it was to highlight the inclusion of attribution for the reader as that was one of the major plagiarism concerns of those who were involved in writing the plagiarism guideline and were opposed to including any text from third party sources unless it was in quotes (see the lead of the guideline when I got involved in rewriting it). The third was that if Attribution became a section it would just add more confusion for editors over what the difference was between Notes, References and this other section called Attribution. -- PBS (talk) 21:04, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I do agree with "semi-colon Attribution" style - it seems a neat way. I'm actually prepared to place both {{DNB Cite}} in the References and {{DNB}} at the end of any page, because I see those as having two different functions. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:10, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

There is little difference now in the functionality between {{DNB Cite}} and {{DNB}} apart from the lead string and the categories set in {{DNB}} which are not set in {{DNB Cite}}. In the old days before DNB took author and volume etc it made sense to use both, now I am not so sure. Having been through 1,000 of pages in the last few days, I think I have seen just about every placing of {{DNB}}, I do think as a general rule it is better if {{DNB}}, {{1911}} etc are corralled in WP:FNNR.

Having antecedently broken it, I have fixed {{DNBfirst}}. Please add a Purpose section to the documentation of {{DNBfirst}} and any adjustments you think fit to the rest of the documentation.

FYI, on the talk page of {{DNB Cite}} I have proposed moving it to {{cite DNB}} so it is in a similar word order to that used for {{cite book}} etc. -- PBS (talk) 06:37, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

OK. One thing that WP:WP DNB should do is to list the templates relevant to the project and at least summarise what their /doc says about them. Perhaps when the dust settles on the current round of changes. Charles Matthews (talk) 09:04, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

John Middleton Murry; cold warrior?, i thought you're likely to know

"He then came out as a Cold War warrior. (meaning?)" This is in there right now. I'd like to know what is meant by coming out, but first, did he really change from pacifist to cold warrior? Thanks. Rich (talk) 20:49, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Here's what we're talking about in a biography, relating to Murry's views in 1956, after Love, Freedom and Society had gone to press : "... his views on the world situation did, in fact, oscillate violently - from hope that Khruschev's denunciation of Stalin might spell the liberalization of Russia to despondency over the repression of Hungary and the British failure to capture Suez (the 'one just war') [...]". So, yes, not a pacifist, and an emergent Cold Warrior, I think might be fair. He died in 1957. (From F. A. Lea, The Life of Middleton Murry (1959), p. 350.) There may be better biographies by now. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:29, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

DYK for Ely and Littleport riots 1816

— Rlevse • Talk • 06:03, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Kalewa

Hi. Can you move Tahan into Kalewa and update it, ensuring that no info is lost. They are actually the same place but Tahan is the Mizo name for it I think. Its kind of the like Rangoon/Yangon both are well known but Kalewa is official.

Also Tedim should be moved to Tiddim, much more common.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:52, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

The first should really be advertised as a merge first, though. I'll do the second, when I've looked over WP:HISTMERGE (not that much fun) given that the history at Tiddim isn't negligible. Charles Matthews (talk) 05:54, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Charles, its Burma..... Hardly has anybody working on them who might dispute it. Now are you you going to merge them or do I redirect and lose the history?♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:42, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't think you should lose the history, since it is not neglible. If you are wondering why it's not done yet, you could read [9] and cut me a bit of slack. I'm getting to the end of DNB vol.58 on WS but am about half a day behind where I wanted to be, despite long hours and the other thing. Charles Matthews (talk) 14:38, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Congratulations Charles!♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:18, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

DNB00

I was looking at instances of "DNB00" in the main namespace, assuming that they should all be made now into uses of {{DNB}} and {{Cite DNB}}. One thing that comes up in the search, which was mainly about catching the interwiki style of link s:Smith, John (DNB00) and replacing it, is that in some cases the floruit wikification has got into templates, and throws up a DNB00 as a result of "fl." being linked. I thought that these happenings, however caused, should be tracked down now. Charles Matthews (talk) 12:13, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Ah as in John Hamilton - "apprehended with a halberd in his hand " - know what he feels like. OK worth a look. Rich Farmbrough, 13:00, 3 October 2010 (UTC).

I found 13 candidates looking for DNB ,and followed by [floruit on the same line, all should be OK now - most you had been there first or were false positives. Rich Farmbrough, 13:56, 3 October 2010 (UTC).

I put it in my diary. So all being well, see you on the 23rd. Rich Farmbrough, 08:26, 4 October 2010 (UTC).

Herborn Academy

Thanks for the encouraging words on the Herborn Academy piece. You are right that there is much to do with the German academic material, but thankfully the German Wikipedia pages are strong, so one can make a good deal of progress simply by translating the German pages. I set up a page on the obscure but important philosopher Jakob Schegk this weekend. Perhaps I can send some of my niggling issues your way as I could use an administrator's help with a couple of items. Gamonetus (talk) 02:15, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Certainly. (The Schegk link from the Renaissance Aristotelians list is welcome - perhaps you saw who started the list. The humanists didn't have it all their own way!) I have created Joseph Duchesne to support the article and others. Charles Matthews (talk) 06:32, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Nice touch on Duchesne. I hope to get around to adding a Paracelsian or two when I have a little free time on my hands.Gamonetus (talk) 03:29, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I have Debus on The English Paracelsians on my desk now, but can't give it priority today. There are numerous references to Duchesne's doctrines in there. Duchesne was translated into English by John Hester (publisher) who is a topic in the Dictionary of National Biography. In connection with WP:WP DNB it could be interesting to get a list of English Paracelsians together; and then in the way of things others will turn up as authors of translated works etc,. and we can move ahead at least by creating redlinks. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:21, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Such as William Butler (physician), George Castle (physician), Lancelot Colson, John Collins (physician), ... and so on (trawling the ODNB). Looks like a good project. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:37, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I have initiated a category for Paracelsians. I have not subdivided it by nationality. Gamonetus (talk) 02:32, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks: I have added Theophrastus Bombastus in pride of place. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:39, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

Whore of Babylon

Hi, Charles Matthews, would you mind joining the discussion at the Talk: Whore of Babylon article? Thanks

I wish I got invitations like that! Anyway, I created Malachias Quælly and it turns out so did you :( Malachias O'Queely I'll try and find a current source, like ODNB, and I'll square it up. Would you mind doing the merge? cygnis insignis 19:02, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

OK. Charles Matthews (talk) 22:01, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I don't have the tool. I don't mind doing the fiddly bit. cygnis insignis 06:19, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Ah, I'm in mid-merge here. Charles Matthews (talk) 06:21, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Talk:Aberdaron/GA1

Hi. The reviewer of this GA has said that Encyclopedia Britannica is not a reliable source. That point could be given about any encyclopedia. Any thoughts? Don't mind whatever viewpoint you have, just need your thoughts on this matter.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:11, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Shrug. GA review is legendarily random, and a reviewer using it to make that kind of point just adds to the reputation. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:07, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Isn't it in the guidelines anywhere to state whether it is or is not a RS? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:32, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, of course there is a guideline for RS, and it's never been worth much. It is always possible to wikilawyer about what is and isn't a "reliable source" in our tortuous sense. It's just not worth worrying about when people imply they have great insight into which sources to trust by abstract reasoning, when for practical purposes they all have mistakes in them. If the point is to verify, what is important is only to argue when there is some serious doubt. Charles Matthews (talk) 21:36, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Citing the DNB first supplement

What I propose to do is create a new template {{cite DNBSupp}} (a copy of {{cite DNB}} modified for the supplement), and then modify {{DNBSupp}} to call it -- as we do with {{DNB}} calling {{cite DNB}}.

Let me know what you think. -- PBS (talk) 09:48, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

OK, fine. I'm relying on you to keep the whole scheme consistent! When I have a bit more time I'll tabulate the whole range of templates for WP:WP DNB. The same may need to be done for the 1912 supplement, which is not yet an active area of work on Wikisource. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:25, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

The templates are done {{cite DNBSupp}} is the base and {{DNBSupp}} calls it. You may want to tweek the wording of the title for example do you really want 1901 in the title as the date of 1901 is always displayed after the editor. Should it be "supplement" or "Supplement". Anyway it is one change as changing the wording in {{cite DNBSupp}} will change in it in {{DNBSupp}}.

I have created the documentation to {{cite DNBSupp}} from {{cite DNB}}, but have commented out the more complicated version. I leave that to someone else to do. I have not altered the wording for the documentation for {{DNBSupp}} what probably needs doing is copying the documentation from {{DNB}} and modifying. But I'll leave that to someone else to decide what to do.

I have edited William Henry Davenport Adams to demonstrate {{DNBSupp}} and John Charles Bucknill to demonstrate {{cite DNBSupp}}. Please let me know if there is anything I can do to help. I would like to "fix" the header of he DNB supplement on Wikisource so it behaved and looked the same as the DNB header what do you think? -- PBS (talk) 00:06, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Would be good. Consult User:JamAKiska there who has been wrestling with all the DNB01 issues. Charles Matthews (talk) 07:40, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Herman ring

		The Original Barnstar
		Thanks for helping improve that new article!  Chzz  ►  10:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

I'd like to put that one in for a "Did you know..." nomination (WP:DYK) within the next few days; my main concern, however, is that it is a bit tricky for a non-expert to understand; it could really do with a more 'general' introductory sentence or two, just to say what it is.

So if you do get a chance to edit it further, please do; we've got a few days before the DYK deadline (has to be 'new' to qualify, within 5 days of creation, and it was created on 14th).

Thanks again!  Chzz  ►  10:07, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

In that context http://eom.springer.de/J/j054390.htm is of some interest. "As of" 1989, it seems, Herman rings had been shown to exist, but had not been exhibited. In other words the later work mentioned in the article demonstrated how to find them in a concrete case. That should provide some better context for the lede. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:20, 15 October 2010 (UTC)