Template talk:Infobox university/Archive 13

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Motto parameter in Template:Infobox university

Can someone please remove the motto parameter in Template:Infobox university? It isn't encyclopedic information (no one cares), usually unverifiable, and often vandalized. Edward Mordake (talk) 16:48, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Oppose more encyclopedic than colors, definitely verifiable. (https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2015/05/seal-of-approval/ for harvard, https://blog.admissions.illinois.edu/?p=12286 for University of Illinois)Naraht (talk) 20:36, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

How do you know that "no one cares"? You don't know what people care about unless they're asked. They're easily verifiable. Corky 23:49, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Struck edit by sock of The Quixotic Potato. Doug Weller talk 16:19, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Undergraduate Tuition Parameter

I would like to propose adding this parameter to the Infobox University section. The reasoning behind this is simple: more awareness about the costs of academia would be highly beneficial to the livelihoods of those pursuing a higher educational degree. Please chime in!

Claiborne206 (talk) 21:39, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

• I am opposed to this parameter because I don't think it's information that should be included in an encyclopedia article. It's really detailed information that changes frequently. It seems to cross over into "guide" territory and seems like something we should be content to leave the institutions' own information sources instead of us trying to keep up with it. In many cases it's not essential information for readers; in the cases that are exceptional we can certainly make exceptions and include the information in the article. Most importantly, it's not straight forward or simple information. All of the things that are included in or closely related to tuition (in-state versus out-of-state, fees, differential tuition, room-and-board (especially when mandatory), discount rates, etc.) make this a surprisingly complicated figure to try to calculate especially for a generic or average case. ElKevbo (talk) 22:48, 28 May 2018 (UTC)
• Strong oppose. I even oppose including this information in the article itself as non-encyclopedic. This is a hornet nest, I wouldn't even touch it with a ten yard stick. --Muhandes (talk) 16:34, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Vice chancellor and provost

Hello all. A question about hierarchies and how they relate to this template- I was under the impression that a Vice Chancellor (at least in countries that have one) outranks the position of Provost. If this is correct, shouldn't the VC parameter come directly after that of the Chancellor, instead of after Provost? - ක - (talk) 12:28, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

I think that the Provost parameter is only designed to be used in cases where it is the title of the senior officer of the institution, so these shouldn't both be populated. In cases where Provost is used for a position below the Vice-Chancellor, similar to a Pro-Vice-Chancellor in other institutions, I don't think it should be filled in - not least because as I understand it there will generally be more than one.

Can you provide an example of an institution which uses both? TSP (talk) 12:46, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Well, this question came about as a result of an institution I myself attend- SLINTEC Academy. The place has both a VC and a Provost, a bit of a mix of US- and British systems. I've been heavily involved in knocking the article into shape, and a recent IP edit that tried to place VC above Provost (obviously with no effect on the actual article) made me think.- ක - (talk) 13:11, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

I think you're correct but I'm afraid that my expertise and experience is limited to U.S. institutions where the VC position is rare. The only example I can think of off the top of my head is Sewanee and their org chart shows the provost reporting to the VC. ElKevbo (talk) 13:39, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

@Jesuschristonacamel: can you clarify the respective roles of the VC and Provost at SLINTEC? I'm suspecting than only one should be listed, but it's hard to be sure.

In the case of Sewanee, that org chart seems to indicate that the Provost is at a vice-presidential level along with a number of others, and therefore I think should not be listed.

The documentation page should probably be a lot clearer on how these fields are intended to be used - we should avoid random members of university staff ending up listed in the infobox because their titles happen to line up with more important roles in other institutions. TSP (talk) 13:59, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

From my experience day-to-day, the VC runs the actual Academy (overall responsibility, appointments, student recruitment and outreach etc), and the Provost is in charge of the actual teaching and curriculum-based stuff, subject to final approval by the VC. I should point out that the Provost at SLINTEC has no VP title.

I think this goes to whether or not- in places where both a Provost and VC position exist- the VC is ranked below a Provost and reports to him/her. A quick look on Google shows me that the positions are either ranked at the same level, or the Provost reports to a VC (such as at Sewanee), never the reverse. - ක - (talk) 14:07, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

The documentation doesn't mention the rule that only one position is meant to be listed, or what are the exceptions to this rule. Anyone care to clarify this? As an example, in India mostly Chancellor and Vice-Chancellor are listed, though the former is in many time not a personal appointment but the governor of the state. --Muhandes (talk) 11:15, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

@TSP: @ElKevbo: Any thoughts? - ක - (talk) 19:44, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

I don't have any objection to multiple people being listed in the infobox as long as it's clear what their position is e.g., Chancellor, Vice Chancellor, President, Provost. (I do object when there is a lack of clarity e.g., Dean, Chair.) ElKevbo (talk) 19:50, 27 June 2018 (UTC)

Would it be too much, given that I can't find any instances of a Vice-chancellor reporting to a Provost, to request the coding of the template be changed such that Provost comes after VC? - ක - (talk) 17:55, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

@Jesuschristonacamel:  Done --Muhandes (talk) 15:56, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

@Muhandes: hey, thanks! - ක - (talk) 16:18, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, been away from wiki for a bit - no objection to this; I do wonder though whether we should add some guidance on only listing the most senior one or two people in an institution? The named position fields are mostly there because they are, somewhere, one of the top couple of positions in an institution. I'm just a bit concerned about people filling in things like the Provost at Sewanee, just because the field is there, even though they are only equivalent in rank to a VP. But maybe we won't see that in practice; I'm just aware of seeing infoboxes for other kinds of institutions where people try to cram in every possible bit of information. TSP (talk) 16:20, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

I second that. I definitely see cases where people add the president, chairman, chancellor, VC and a dean for good measure, followed by a random head label, just because the fields are there. If this was meant for the top position or two (which I believe it was), it should be documented. --Muhandes (talk) 16:24, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Strong agreement here. In the US, there are multiple vice presidents, for example. Relatedly, the inclusion of this title seems to run counter to a "one person" intent; if there's a vice X, then there must be an X over them, no? - Eponymous-Archon (talk) 00:04, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

I agree that it is reasonable that only the highest person in the management hierarchy should be listed, but I would caution that documentation needs to be written to accommodate systems, such as in the UK and many Commonwealth countries, where roles are split. A normal British university will have a Chancellor (ceremonial head) as well as a Vice-Chancellor (CEO) and an independent Chair of Council (non-executive chair of the board). At least the first two of these should be listed, and am argument can be made for the third as well (corporations such as BT Group and the BBC list both their chair and their CEO in the infobox). Robminchin (talk) 06:18, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Vice President link

The vice-president parameter currently links to Dean (education), but the position is not the same. Can it be delinked?--Tærkast (Discuss) 15:20, 23 August 2018 (UTC)

That is very odd and should almost certainly be changed. Robminchin (talk) 06:29, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

 Done Galobtter (pingó mió) 06:33, 24 August 2018 (UTC)

Location problem

Someone has messed up the Location in the infobox. There is now an unnecessary line break and weird gaps between the city and country, with gaps either side of the comma. I don't know how to fix it but can someone who does do it? Thanks ClippednPinned (talk) 17:42, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

 Done I reverted the edits some other editor made earlier today. --Muhandes (talk) 17:54, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

 Fixed. Sorry about that. If there are any other problems, please link to a specific article, and I'll check it out. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:18, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Institution with multiple locations

Hello, I am discovering the use of Infobox templates and have a question: This institution has multiple locations in Europe (4 different cities in 3 different countries). Could anybody advise me what would be the best ways to integrate that so as to respect the norms, and the generated markup? (also seems, I believe, linked to WikiData project) Cheers DeepBluuue (talk) 20:38, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Discussions about this issue date back more than a decade, e.g. this one. In my opinion infoboxes should remain concise and clear or they don't serve their purpose. If it becomes confusing or too lengthy, (and in the case you listed I believe it will), either leave it empty or list the headquarters. The article text will explain the rest. --Muhandes (talk) 21:25, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Muhandes - seems I do need to learn how to search archives too while I'm at it. Cheers DeepBluuue (talk) 21:33, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

remove motto_eng

Please remove motto_eng from the list of acceptable parameters at the bottom. It is not used. mottoeng is used, and motto_eng is not an alternate.Naraht (talk) 15:14, 15 March 2019 (UTC)

Where do you see this? I only see mottoeng. Robminchin (talk) 02:14, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

 Done. – Jonesey95 (talk) 07:21, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Order

Regardless of the order of infobox, when the edit is saved it puts chancellor ahead of president. In many universities, the president is the top of the university and chancellor is next so can this be fixed so president can be listed above chancellor in the infobox? Some universities use chancellor as their head of the university, but in all universities that have both a president and a chancellor, the president is always more senior, so the infobox needs to be changed. Thunderbolt.wiki (talk) 06:20, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Not sure where you're thinking of. At William and Mary the Chancellor is ceremonial head, above the President. British universities (which are increasingly using President) also follow this pattern. Robminchin (talk) 07:13, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that if the Chancellor is at vice-president level to an executive president, then they are not an institutional head and should not be listed (see discussion of vice-chancellor and provost above) – as appears to be the case at Northeastern, for example.

If the President is a ceremonial head and the Chancellor is the executive head, then both should be listed with President first. If such a situation exists, it can be dealt with using head_label = Chancellor and head = {{{chancellor name}}}. (I just checked this in a sandbox – it works). Robminchin (talk) 01:30, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

PS – as I edited this, a bot came past and archived the discussion on vice-chancellor and provost I referred to! It can be found in the talk page archive. Robminchin (talk) 01:41, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Can you please provide some examples? I'm only really familiar with U.S. institutions but in every instance I can think of the chancellor is senior to the president. (Although I can't think of many examples of U.S. institutions that have both a president and a chancellor outside of a few systems that have a chancellor that oversees the system and presidents that oversee the specific institutions. Chancellor has also occasionally been used as an honorary title for a retired president.) Thanks! ElKevbo (talk)

Your mention of systems prompted me to think of an example – the University of Puerto Rico has a system President and each campus has a Chancellor (actually Rector in Spanish, but for some reason the translation Chancellor is used in English). Robminchin (talk) 02:12, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

It looks like the University of California is the same. But the campus articles don't list the system President, so the problem doesn't arise. Robminchin (talk) 02:33, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

The University of Maryland System uses chancellor as the head, with each system institution having a president as their leader. Corky 22:53, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Same goes for the Texas State University System and University of Texas System. Corky 23:00, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

University of Hawaiʻi System has a system president and a Chancellor for each university/college GeekInParadise (talk) 21:49, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Recommendation: create a new attribute called "head" or something, and apply logic that switches the order based on the value of "head". So if head is set to "chancellor" then it goes first, if set to "president" or is blank, president goes first. That way the order is always logical and the existing Infoboxes have backwards compatibility. Either that or have a label and value for different heads of the university since every University does things differently. I was just thinking about backwards compatibility. GeekInParadise (talk) 21:56, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

That might work, but I've no idea if it's possible to code such logic within the current system. We would certainly need something that was backwards compatible, which does limit what can be changed. It seems the main place where president/chancellor conflicts occur is within university systems, so possibly a system_head/system_head_label pair that sat above the institutional heads would work. Robminchin (talk) 00:15, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

More importantly, I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier. I'm confused exactly what the debate/problem is. Are there colleges wikipedia pages that use both the chancellor and president attribute in the same infobox? If it's almost like an alternative attribute, what difference the order make if only one is used? GeekInParadise (talk) 01:00, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

The various head labels are not quite alternatives, as it is possible for a university to have multiple heads with different titles depending on what is meant by 'head'. An ancient university in Scotland will normally have a chancellor, vice-chancellor and rector, for example. With chancellor and president, I suspect it was originally believed that they would never occur together so the order was unimportant. However, it turns out that it does occur on the pages for some campuses of university systems, and either can then be the senior (system) head. Robminchin (talk) 03:16, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

I don't see the need for over complication. I believe there is strong consensus that only the highest person in the management hierarchy should be listed, and in case that there is a split hierarchy, two persons (see e.g. Template talk:Infobox university/Archive 13#Vice chancellor and provost). The template already allows for any order necessary of two persons, using |head_label= in case the default order does not work. There is no need for anything more. --Muhandes (talk) 12:17, 18 March 2019 (UTC)