Talk:Western Massachusetts

Steve Herrell, ice cream, and western Mass

"The concept of mixing candy, nuts, and crushed cookies, and other stuff into ice cream was invented by Steve Herrell, whose current ice cream shop, Herrell's, is in Northampton"

Seeing as how there are Herrell's ice cream stores in Cambridge and Boston as well as Northampton, what makes this a fact about Western Mass? AJD 09:25, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

The statement, as written, is blattantly bogus anyway. Much as I liked Steve's Ice Cream at Porter Square, I'm pretty sure that Maple Walnut and Butter Pecan ice crema existed long before Steve invented "the concept of mixing ... nuts" into ice cream.

I'll take the heat for removing the statament. Atlant 12:17, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Actually the whole story is that Steve Herrell's first ice cream shop was Steve's Ice Cream in Boston in 1973. He sold this shop in 1977. In 1980 he founded Herrell's Ice Cream in Northampton, which now has opened shops near Boston. Steve Herrell was the first person to mix Heath Bars into Ice Cream and this idea spread across the Country. It isn't clear from what is written if they started at Steve's or Herrell's. The point being is the inventor of this idea is a Western Mass figure, as that is where his home store and office is located, in Northampton MA. Noldrin 9:25, 06 September 2005

Mixins started at the original Steve's Ice Cream in Somerville, if the location he started it was in question. Like with the trademark issues that forced Herrell to change the name of the Northampton shop from "Steve Herrell's" to "Herrell's", he had to change the name of the technique. Ravenswing 03:13, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

Perhaps a statement such as "Steve Herrell, The Inventor of Mixins, second ice cream chain was started in and is based out of Northampton" would be appropiate. Noldrin 9:53, 07 September 2005

Secession?

I think the part about Western Massachusetts residents being cynical about Boston and periodically calling for secession needs a reference. 24.60.184.196 20:24, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

I reversed the removal of the Personality section. It's traditionally polite to wait a week before deleting a whole section like that. Also, it would be good to provide contrary evidence that shows that the section is invalid, especially because the Talk discussion only referenced the first sentence, not the whole section. Please feel free to get a no-cost membership at Wikipedia, it makes it easier for editors to communicate. :)

Citations:

1. [1] Secession group in Chicopee.
2. [2] Column in an MIT paper ([http://www-tech.mit.edu/ The Tech) talking about differences between eastern and western Massachusetts.
3. [3] Transcript of a meeting from MassINC ([4]) regarding the east/west divide in Massachusetts.
4. The "Berkshire Freedom Coalition" is referenced in many web directories as a Western Mass. secession group. Their website [5] appears to be defunct, though.
5. [6] Mass Pike article from South Coast Today mentions a revolt by drivers from western Massachusetts against turnpike policies.\
6. [7] Article in the Boston Globe talking about Alabama road signs installed in the western town of Easthampton.

The distrust we're talking about goes back over 300 years. In 1787, this divide led to open rebellion and bloodshed. It's very real and flares up any time there's an economic downturn or some major project that is perceived as stealing funds from the western part of the state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dunkelza (talk • contribs) 02:27, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

I apologize for not waiting a week. However, your assertion that MANY people take a cynical attitude toward Boston is blatantly taking a point of view. The citations you give are from opinion pieces, not objective news pieces. And the statement that people oppose Wal-Mart hardly seems borne out by the proliferation of both Wal-Mart and Target in places like, say, the Route 9 corridor in Hadley, Mass. The Alabama road sign incident was a simple mistake not a statement about secession or a statement against Boston. And, as you yourself point out the Berkshire Freedom coalition is now defunction. I have lived in Western Mass. for many years and have never heard any mention of sececssion. There is no "revolt" by Turnpike drivers. Your reference number #5 doesn't mention this at all. What "revolt" are you talking about? #5 seems to imply a positive thing for Westgern Mass. Also your reference # 1 goes nowhere. Your characterization of the "Personality of Western Mass." is way off and not representative of a neutral point of view. A vast region like Western Massachusetts does not have a "Personality." I believe you are expanding on stereotypes, not presenting fact.

I've also tagged this article for POV with the aim of getting some more people involved in the discussion. 24.60.184.196 11:27, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

No big deal. I would encourage you to get a login, it's free.

Considering that we are discussing the opinions of the locals, opinion pieces are a valid indicator that such an opinion exists. The opinion clearly exists so the question becomes, 'is the sentence FACTUALLY accurate'?:

"Many residents of Western Massachusetts take a cynical attitude towards Boston -- the state's capital and largest city -- and talk of secession appears periodically."

The word "many" means "a large, indefinite number" according to the American Heritage Dictionary. While the word can sometimes be interpreted as meaning a majority, that is not implied by the text of the sentence. Clearly, an anti-Boston sentiment exists in some "large, indefinite" portion of the populace:

1. Reference #3 above involves discussions amongst academics and political leaders talking about said divide.
2. Bay State's east, west look for ways to repair the divide - AP article in South Coast Today talking about the east/west divide in Massachusetts and hopes to repair the split.
3. Reference #5 above states:

   "Massachusetts' Fast Lane system, which has become a target for Turnpike critics, got off to a slow start with massive traffic jams, hefty losses in toll revenues and police overtime, and a revolt by western Massachusetts drivers that forced the Pike to provide them with more than $517,000 in free transponders."

   (Emphasis mine) Clearly, they're talking about a political backlash, not an armed uprising.
4. Berkshire Town Sends Giant Ball of Cheese to Washington A historical article reinforcing the historical origins of the divide.
5. shaysridesagain.org An anti-corporate, pro-local governance group in Western Massachusetts harkening back to the Shays Rebellion.
6. Local Reps Distrust UMass Trustees Article in the Valley Advocate talking about disempowerment on the UMass board: "What's eating at legislators like Kulik and Story is the fact that right now, there are no residents of western Massachusetts on the board..."

The mere existence of pro-secession websites indicates that some "talk of secession" exists, and the disappearance of one of those sites reinforces the "periodic" nature of the discussion.

The anti-WalMart sentiment point is neither supported nor refuted by the existence of WalMarts in the region. WalMart is infamous for moving into areas over the objection of the local residents. This is how they got into Vermont as well. Again, I'm not saying that EVERYONE hates WalMart... heck, I used to work at the one in Hadley, but I have been aware of the controversy. The debate's STILL going on in Greenfield, more than a decade later, if you can believe it.

Anyway, my supper is ready, so I'm going to wrap up. The point is that the sentence is FACTUALLY correct. Can it be improved and made less ambiguous? Of course, but I don't believe that any of the facts in that section are wrong. I agree that "personality" isn't the best title for the topics covered, maybe "political climate" would serve better?

Oh, just to be clear, I didn't write the article, nor even the whole section. I simply tweak it and clarify, like most editors.

BTW, I have also lived in the area for years. I'd really like to avoid trying to figure out whose blood is bluer. That said, I'm not entirely sure how you could have missed all the anti-Boston sentiment. :) - Dunkelza 19:46 September 6, 2005 (EDT)

I remember several years ago that one of the morning DJ's on 99.3 would mention that Western Mass should split off from rest of the State on air back and at one point in 2002 asked on air Gubernatorial Candidate Shannon O'Brien what she thought of the idea. She's said something to the effect that while the idea tends gets mentioned over the years and can sound tempting, that the best realistic solution is push for a government the works for all the people, rather than going it alone. - Noldrin 21:06 September 7, 2005 (EDT)

I also have lived in Western Mass for years, and while many people (disclaimer: including myself) DO have a distrust of Boston politics, any talk I've heard of secession (which hasn't been much) has always been clearly tongue-in-cheek ("And we can have our own currency!"). I would just word it "Many residents of Western Massachusetts take a cynical attitude towards Boston -- the state's capital and largest city." and keep it at that. Stev0 05:34, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree with Stev0; being a Boston native who lived in the Valley for 12 years, it's true that 'secession' is airy nonsense that's either tongue-in-cheek or spoken by the occasional nutcase, and not worth mentioning. It's also true that there is profound and widespread anti-Boston sentiment, possibly having something to do with the sheer indifference towards western MA in this neck of the woods, and I seriously wonder as to the bonafides of anyone claiming to be a Valley native and unaware of it. Ravenswing 12:08, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Would anyone object if I edited the sentence in question to what I wrote above? Stev0 20:16, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

While part of me wants to mention Piss in the Quabbin Day, I agree that your sentence is probably best. Rhobite 21:02, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

It's accurate and reasonably neutral, Stev0, go for it. Ravenswing 21:21, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, I took out the controversial phrase. I'd keep the Wal-Mart one in there because while there are Wal-Marts in Northampton and Hadley (and they both do good business), there are also a number of "Mall Wart" and "Wal-Mart: Your low wage leader. Every day." bumper stickers seen locally. Can we take out the Controversy tag now? Stev0 22:57, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

I'm all for leaving in the Wal-Mart mention and removing the POV tag. Rhobite 00:00, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

OK, I took out the POV tag. Actually, in the sentence I'd like to say something of WHY people in Western Mass are cynical about Boston ("Bostonians think the state ends at route 495"), but can't think of a non-POV way to say it. Stev0 16:02, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

It's absolutely true, but I agree it's hard. I'd go with something like this: "The widespread belief amongst Western Massachusetts residents -- fuelled by incidents such as the former state House Speaker use of parliamentary rules to deny Northampton an election to fill a vacant House seat -- is that Bostonians little know nor care about their part of the state." Heck, I'll put that in myself. Ravenswing 23:46, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Two points for discussion and editing or edition by someone more knowledgeable than I on this format.

1. As a longtime small business person in the Berkshires I must disagree with Western Mass being "a haven for small business". I have numerous items that can be cited but it is not universally true and does not meet the standards I have found in the rest of this article or other areas on this website.
2. The difference in dialect, accents, speech between someone from Plymouth (my dad) and someone from North Adams (me)is worth mentioning. Once one gets past “Woostah”, spelt Worcester but known as Wooster to the rest of the country, there is a difference in many things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomsw (talk • contribs) 03:11, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Twin Cities

I am a native of Westfield, my father's family is from Hartford. In all my life I have never heard of Springfield and Hartford referred to as Twin Cities. Could someone please tell me the root of that concept? Nepal Tree — Preceding undated comment added 03:39, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Probably that they're the two largest cities in western New England and a half hour apart. That being said, this whole "Twin City" notion's a bit of a crock. Ravenswing 06:46, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I never heard of them called Twin Cities either. The closest I've heard is Bradley Airport being called the Hartford/Springfield airport. Stev0 06:57, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure where that came from either. It might be something about Hartford and Springfield trying to cooperate economically, like that commuter rail thing or something. We can take it out. --Dunkelza 17:15, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Personality section

As of this version, [8], on October 5, 2006 it says:

Many residents of Western Massachusetts take a cynical attitude towards Boston, the state's capital and largest city. The widespread belief -- fueled by incidents such as the former state House Speaker's use of parliamentary rules to deny Northampton an election to fill a vacant House seat -- is that Bostonians little know nor care about their part of the state.

It's worth stating which State House speaker, and what departing representative caused the vacancy, and when this occurred. Best of all it is desirable to say why the claimed event occurred, and link it to the fact that the region contains only one-eighth of the Commonwealth's population. That's actually interesting and says something about why there is distrust of Boston. As it stands, the statement is presently unsupported story-telling.

Re-opening the "cynical attitude" discussion, I think there's more power in saying critical, instead of cynical and that term would include more than a modest grumpy fraction of the Western Massachusetts population. Once again, linking it with the fact that there's not much leverage in having 20-odd representatives in a 160-representative house for which the ruling party has a veto-overriding authority makes a difference, and generates real understanding. Yellowdesk 01:19, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I added a couple of the more famous events in the history of Boston saying "Screw you" to Western Massachusetts. I could have added more (I was tempted to add the resentment of Western Mass of taxing the entire state to pay for Boston's "Big Dig"). While these events are certainly critical of Boston's thinking, I think cynical better describes the mood - except for Shay's Rebellion, no one ever really did more than just say "we don't like this," to which Boston responded with either, "awww, isn't that cute?" or "did someone just say something?" Stev0 01:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

That's something. I think it's really difficult to write a section with this kind of angle, and have it responsibly represent some 650,000 people. And generate understandiing as well. It's also difficult to defend it from criticism; basically the angle or topic would merit a whole article on its own. The section is lacking in context explaining what led up to the events, and how disaffection could not be remedied by some loyal opposition. For example, it's ahistorcal in not explaining what Shay's beef was, and what the consequences of it were (ah...a strong new Federal goverment put forward by an elite with a lot to be concerned about). On the corporate front, some in Greenfield would be delighted if some corporations were a little more interested in the area, like the long ago absorbed Millers Falls Tool Co, or the deflated Greenfield Tap and Die, or Bendix, Kollmorgon, or General Electric, and so on. There's a lot going on that's tough to characterize. One could call it yankee independance, if there were more yankees. Perhaps even worse, the views are shared statewide, in kind with people from the outer Cape, and Islands, from New Bedford, or from Lowell, Lawrence, and mid-Worcester country, or in Essex county in the northeast, and even in sections of Boston itself, which all makes it hard to distinguish from the supposedly unique Western Massachusetts sentiment. Yellowdesk 09:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

While your average Bostonian thinks the border of the state is Route 93, they all know where the Cape and the Islands are, especially on a weekend in the summer. Four out of five Bostonians could easily point to Plymouth, Lowell, or Worcester on a map; however, since Western Mass is the furthest geographically, probably one Bostonian in 10 could point to Springfield on a map, or is even aware there's such a city in their state. In other words, Western Mass feels the brunt of Boston's self-absorbed nature the most.

A personal anecdote I think demonstrates this best. I live in Western Mass, and have a good friend who lives in Boston. Her job takes her to remote third-world villages in Africa and in the middle of the jungle in Central America. These are places no roads go, or ever will go. Yet she refuses to visit me in Western Mass because "it's too difficult to get to." Stev0 14:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Link spam?

Why accept the "classifieds" but not the business directory link? - Denimadept 15:11, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

And why is the Western Mass Web Guide acceptable? Dragon Directories 17:59, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

You're right. I've removed those too. AJD 18:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Regarding talk of secession

I've heard of it too. It also comes up regarding the state's 5% sales tax. Which either every 2 or 3 out of the 5 cents went to the MBTA. Western Mass. persons in the past have said they have to pay the sales tax to support the MBTA and yet the MBTA doesn't goto western Mass. And yes I've heard the same arguments about the Turnpike. Stating that all the recent construction was on the Boston end of the authority and that the Western half should be all paid up by now. And there was a huge battle cry from western Mass. that even though they travel the most road they shouldn't pay for the western half of the tolls. Easy quick google search under : "western Massachusetts 5% sales tax MBTA"

• [9]
• [10]
• [11]
• [12]
• [13]
• [14]
• [15]
• [16]

CaribDigita (talk) 01:01, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Worcester

When is Worcester ever considered to be part of Western Massachusetts? john k (talk) 16:49, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

By people from the Boston area, where the "real" Massachusetts stops at Rte 128, and the words "Hic draconis est" are scrawled across the Berkshires. Otherwise, no. Ravenswing 17:37, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Puzzling first sentence in Geography section

"There are 103 towns and 11 cities in Western Massachusetts, spread throughout five counties; however, none of these (formerly active) political entities retains any government functions."

Am I misunderstanding this somehow? None of the towns and cities in Western Mass have any government functions? 'Cause we elect a mayor and city council in Northampton, and we call it "city government". Even our city government thinks it's a government: http://www.northamptonma.gov/27/City-Government If nobody objects, I'm going to wait a couple of days and then strip out "however, ... functions."

BTW and OT, nice job on the History section editors, to me it comes across very wikipedian - neutral, factual, non-POV.

Spike0xff (talk) 20:35, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Clarified. Does that help? Massachusetts county governments were dissolved by Governor Weld. Massachusetts has NO unincorporated land area. - Denimadept (talk) 00:03, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Mm, not quite; only eight of the county governments were abolished. Plymouth, Suffolk, Bristol, Barnstable, Dukes and Nantucket are intact.

That being said, the article's still a bit of a mess. The lede is especially aggravating; it reads like a CoC brochure. Anyone got the time to tackle it? Ravenswing 00:31, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Western Massachusetts. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/20081007134002/http://walmartwatch.com/battlemart/resources/greenfield_ma_stops_wal_mart_rezoning/ to http://walmartwatch.com/battlemart/resources/greenfield_ma_stops_wal_mart_rezoning/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 00:54, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

Student Editor

I am a student editor currently taking a course at Texas A&M University, so will be working on this article for the next few weeks. I will be working on fixing the encyclopedic tone and some organization within the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nellybelly19 (talk • contribs) 17:08, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

Are Roadways Necessary?

As I begin looking at this page and comparing it to similar pages for regions, I notice that not all list the "major" roadways present. Is this information that's really necessary to have? If so, is there a way it could be better organized? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nellybelly19 (talk • contribs) 06:05, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Deleting the "Leisure activities and places of historical interest" section

This section creates the tone of a guidebook, which is not the purpose of Wikipedia (WP:not). I don't see the necessity for it on this page. @Auberginandjuice:, you reverted my original edit to delete this section, so I wanted to give you and others the chance to weigh in. Thanks, Nellybelly19 (talk) 02:36, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

I initially undid the edits as they appeared like unsourced deletions, and in general I err on the side of preserving information. Looking at it more closely, I agree with you Nellybelly19 about the section Western_Massachusetts#Leisure_activities_and_places_of_historical_interest that you mentioned on my talk page, and I think it could be edited to be more encyclopedic.

However, the section on Native inhabitants is of historical importance and I'd rather see it in a more complete form instead of being edited to the point of superficiality. It was these edits which I undid because they appeared to be counterproductive. I can see that you went ahead and restored those edits despite them being rolled back by more than one editor. Since this is the section you keep editing, not the section on leisure activities and places of historical interest, we should focus on that first. Before deleting the information again it's usually best to ask on the talk page. Perhaps @Donner60: can weigh in since they also reverted those edits. Auberginandjuice (talk) 05:26, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

I also think the Native inhabitants section is of historical importance and I do not see it as unencyclopedic or biased without rejecting the idea that it might be improved. @Auberginandjuice: makes a good point that this section could be better improved by revising it or adding to it rather than deleting text and a source. I think that one or more additional sources would be an improvement. Perhaps some additional and pertinent information could be found in related articles which would reduce the time needed for research. Donner60 (talk) 06:12, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree with you both, @Donner60: and @Auberginandjuice:, that this information is of historical importance, but my concern is that this sub-section is overbearing and takes up more of the article than necessary. My goal in removing some of the information was to create more of an overview. There's so much information, almost written like an essay, that I almost think it could be its own article. Nellybelly19 (talk) 06:49, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

I understand your concerns but this is ultimately not helpful to readers who read the Western Massachusetts article and are interested in having a reasonably broad overview of the history of the region. I think that WP:IMPROVEDONTREMOVE applies here. I do see that you rephrased parts of the article which discussed politics and contemporary attitudes in Western Mass and that was definitely an improvement. However, it would probably be best to reinstate that info on native inhabitants, and probably also the info on the Colonial and early Federal period. This did not seem overly essay-like and if parts were they would be better rephrased than not present at all. If you and @Donner60: agree, we might go ahead and reinclude those sections. Auberginandjuice (talk) 22:42, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

@Auberginandjuice: I agree. Donner60 (talk) 03:14, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Since we seem to have a consensus, I am going to restore the info deleted by NellyBelly19 to the sections on Native Inhabitants and Colonial and early Federal period, with maybe a few minor copyedits to help with tone/wikilinking/etc. Auberginandjuice (talk) 21:18, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 13 January 2020 and 20 April 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Nellybelly19.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 12:52, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Massachusetts Museum of Contemporary Art (Mass MOCA)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Museum_of_Contemporary_Art Thomswift1 (talk) 01:01, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

... what about it? Ravenswing 04:06, 21 December 2023 (UTC)