Talk:List of wars of the Indigenous peoples of North America

Title incorrect if this is to include non-US wars

Title is OK for wars between, say, the Cherokee and Chickasaw, and I guess because Alaska is American now the Russian-aboriginal Battle of Sitka (1904) is legit here; but I object to the use of the American term for aboriginal people if it's in reference to wars in Canada or New Spain; it gets dicier in two of BC's wars (the Fraser Canyon and Wild Horse Creek Wars) because Americans were involved, if not the United States as a government or military. The title is even more inappropriate for the two Riel Rebellions ("rebellions", so-called by central Canadian historiographical prejudices/propaganda). Not sure what the title should be, then; but "Native American wars" doesn't cut it for what this page is supposed to be; easier to adjust the Indian Wars page to remove the overt American-history bias from that term (i.e. to set a precedent). Suggestions? Skookum1 22:17, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this should be something like Indigeneous Peoples of North America Wars. Excellent points on here and on Indian Wars page : what is the perspective? I am fairly sure some Apache groups didn't really look at the US/Spanish boundary. From a different perspective, consider that Vandals and "other barbarians" who invaded what we call Italy or Europe. They are the equal of the european North American invaders to the indigeneous peoples of North America. Interestingly, at least in US schools, the story is generally told from the "Western Roman Empire" perspective. Go figure :)

Like the "Western Roman Empire", indigeneous people of North America also fought each other. Tbat is why I added a topic. Just more food for thought. --Rcollman 12:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Indian Wars crossovers here, list needs culling

As I recall this page was created as the location for wars between the non-US imperial/colonial powers and their settlers on the one hand and the and the indigenous peoples of Canada and Mexico, and also those in what is now the US which were not part of US state or other hostilities against US Native Ameriaricans (that wa a typo but it's so good I'm leaving it; big fat fingers on a small keyboard...well, not fat just huge). Examples are the Battle of Sitka (Russians and Tlinkits) or the Battle of Port Gamble (American troops/ship vs British/Russian territory Haida and Tlinkit. This page was c;rated to be for everything but the Indian Wars, because of the US-centric historical associations of the phrase, even though it's the only way to normally describee such wars as happened in Mexico and Canada, though more in Canada I suppose than in Mex; likewise between the Russians and Alaska Natives. This is was what went down on Talk:Indian Wars anyway. I'm still not clear if colonial-era American wars were to be in this group, but that was the intent of this page; a dab line and a proper intro are i guess what's needed, explaining this in better fashion than I just have; and the list needs to be culled of things that are on Indian Wars, and that page already has a dab line directing non-US Indian wars (small-w) here. Should I just go for it and WP:Be Bold and start culling? - or maybe could someone stateside who's better at sorting them out; what's on Indian Wars should not (necessarily) be on Wars of the indigenous peoples of North America unless there's some kind of crossover reason. That's what i thought anyway, is that now "pooof!?". This is another instance of something I've raised on crossborder pages re the WP:OR WP:BC WP:WA turf on "shared articles", meaning shared between countries, like Talk:Columbia River implies, where the article can be made much better by joint input and mutual learning, and in cases like this to sort out difficult content and title issues. A better name for this page; but a start would be a better intro. to help direct away new additions to their proper location at Indian Wars. Unless I'm just not understanding what is on the page, it does seem to need sorting, though.Skookum1 (talk) 06:32, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

And the list goes on

Atlantic Virginia: Intercolonial Relations in the Seventeenth Century By April Lee Hatfield mentions 3 wars between VA colonists and Pohatans. http://cybersleuth-kids.com/americanhistory/Chapter1/colonialindianrelations.htm COLONIAL-INDIAN RELATIONS mentions - "The first of the important Indian uprisings occurred in Virginia in 1622, when some 347 whites were killed, including a number of missionaries who had just recently come to Jamestown." - and "In 1675 Bacon's Rebellion, the first significant revolt against royal authority, broke out in the colonies. The original spark was a clash between Virginia frontiersmen and the Susquehannock Indians, Bacon led an attack against the friendly Ocaneechee tribe, nearly wiping them out." Nitpyck (talk) 21:56, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Proposed merge of Indian massacre and Wars of the indigenous peoples of North America

• Oppose. Massacres and wars are quite different, and the notability and historical significance of Indian massacres are well-established, warranting their own Wikipedia article. -Uyvsdi (talk) 16:49, 13 May 2013 (UTC)Uyvsdi
• oppose Yes - it seems that in some cases, during a war or rebellion, massacres occurred, but these are not the same scope. Also, it's not clear if there was a battle between military forces on both sides, and one side lost more than the other, if this is indeed properly termed a massacre - however, there are many cases of such battles that are so deemed by sources. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 17:10, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

  Look at the list and the articles in the categories though. Most of the battles between armed groups later called a "massacre" are usually defined by white people, and most were "waaah mommy, the mean Indians beat us up because we were idiots." (see Fetterman Fight, once called "Fetterman massacre") Now yes, there ARE a few true "massacres" -- as in wholly unprovoked attacks on mostly unarmed noncombatant civilian populations, (Ironically, often called "battles" anyway, took years to change the "official" name of Wounded Knee Massacre, similarly the Sand Creek massacre or Chivington massacre was the "Battle" of Sand Creek for a long time) but that's a different issue. My problem is a title like "Indian massacres" perpetuates the "bloodthirsty savage" stereotype. Montanabw^(talk) 18:17, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

We have go by sources; if you have a more neutral name, that is fine too - propose a rename via an RM. There are also massacres, so deemed, where the victims were indians and the perpetrators were indians. I don't think we can get away from that word, unless we can show that modern sources eschew it, or only apply it to attacks on civilians or something. --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:23, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Perfectly understandable for individual articles, but not for an overview or an entire category, but off to the WP for more discussion. Montanabw^(talk) 18:39, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

As there are a number of articles involved, pehaps this discussion should be HQ'd at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America? Montanabw^(talk) 18:22, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I tried to do a few days ago, remember? :) --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 18:24, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

I don't remember (too tied up with Skookum1's battle with Kwami over naming the tribes) but I created a section there now. Montanabw^(talk) 18:37, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

WP:IPNA needs to be more pro-active about a series of guidelines for MOS and also a set of "indigenous sensitivity/authenticity" guidelines within the project and a template like the {{Canadian English}} one, I think it is, that can be placed on Canada-topic articles about Canadian English overriding "global" standards. About this "massacres" business, it's always been a loaded word on both sides; there's a Category:Mass murders in Canada that was added to the Klatassine or Chilcotin War articles recently, and that was about the group execution of the natives, not about the slaughter (and it was) of the white road crew that launched things off. Applying that was POV in nature, from the native view that judicial murder is still murder etc. (retroactive apology/pardons have been made in recent years). As for natives killing natives, there's a BC Names item on an island in Owekeeno Lake that's, um, disturbing, and the slaughter of the Comox by the Haida recounted in the Adam Horne article, I think it is; the Tonquin incident, the Susan Sturgis incident in what is now officially Haida Gwaii, the rapine of the Straits and Puget Sound Salish, every four years or so like the "wraith" in Stargate: Atlantis (scary masks and all), by the certain Haida, Tlingit and Tsimshian in a regular raiding/killing alliance (see Puget Sound War and one of the USS Massachusetts articles, can't remember the year-dab, the Tsilhqot'in attacks on Chinlac and also on the St'at'imc (no article or section on that yet, it's hard to cite but common knowledge in local history), the genocide against the Lakes Lillooet (Seton and D'Arcy bands) that was part of Nicola's War and lots more....the extermination of the Stuwix by Secwepemc raids, and so on..... I suggest "conflicts" vs "massacres" for any of these categories/articles as being "safer" and more NPOV. Skookum1 (talk) 02:23, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Main discussion is at indigenous project talk - plz go there instead. thanks --Obi-Wan Kenobi (talk) 02:29, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I'll take these points over there, though amended with just one more here during edit conflict.Skookum1 (talk) 02:31, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. --Kmoksy (talk) 16:51, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Rename as List of wars of the indigenous peoples of North America?

Would renaming this article to List of wars of the indigenous peoples of North America be more accurate? Is that title too long? RJFJR (talk) 18:03, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

other battles

Where are the lists of battles between two different indigenous groups? Did that not occur prior to westerners arriving? WakandaQT (talk) 07:42, 9 April 2021 (UTC)