Talk:Wagner Group rebellion

This was a mutiny not a rebellion

Sources universally call this a mutiny, not a rebellion. I will move the page. Ergzay (talk) 14:03, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

I see this was previously discussed, and the result was to move it TO rebellion, despite the overwhelming number of sources all calling this a mutiny. Why are we ignoring the overwhelming majority of sources calling this a mutiny? It also fits the strict definition of a mutiny rather than a rebellion. For anyone who needs a primer on why it's a mutiny, this is a useful source to watch that covers the reasons (besides the fact that most sources call it a mutiny). Ergzay (talk) 14:09, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

It seems most of the previous discussion focused on the idea that Wagner is ostensibly a private military company. However private military companies are officially illegal in Russia, thus any private military company is de-facto run by the Russian state. This seems to be the primary point of confusion for people who are ill informed. Ergzay (talk) 14:16, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Further it's clear from all official statements made by Wagner Group (Prigozhin) that there was no attempt to change the government in Moscow, one of the fundamental prerequisites to calling this a rebellion. Ergzay (talk) 14:26, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Sources do not universally call it a mutiny, it has been called:

• a rebellion: [1][2][3][4][5]
• a revolt: [6][7][8][9][10]
• and an uprising: [11][12][13][14][15]

and a mutiny. No "overwhelming majority of sources" called it a mutiny - presidentofyes, the super aussa man 19:15, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

@Presidentofyes12 I suggest looking better at those sources. They use different words in the content of the article than they do in the title. For example the brookings source of your rebellion list uses mutiny throughout the article many times, but uses rebellion only sparingly. The cricis group source does the same. It's even in the first line "On 24 June, Vladimir Putin faced the biggest challenge in over two decades at Russia’s helm: a mutiny by a mercenary group fighting alongside Russian forces in Ukraine." Just look at the wiki page and how often "mutiny" is directly in the list of sources actually used for the wiki article. Ergzay (talk) 01:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

It's more correct to say it was a rebellion and the type of rebellion was a mutiny. Every rebellion sources you listed used both mutiny and rebellion interchangeably in the same article. Ergzay (talk) 01:41, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

This was a rebellion. For it to be called a mutiny, it had to been owned by the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, which PMC Wagner is not. It's a private military company that was operated by Prigozhin and the Council of Commanders. Paying people to fight is not owning them, that's not how PMCs work. Bigfatman8766 (talk) 03:41, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Commanders

Does Utkin and Troshev counts as the commanders of Wagner? If yes, it should be in the infobox. СлаваУкраїні 16:14, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

March of Justice in the lead

@Omegatron I disagree with adding to the lead that this event is also known as the March of Justice. The source you used to support that claim is WP:NYPOST, a non-reliable source. The other source which you claim supports the same is referenced by a broken link. You said then that the image used in the infobox of our article supports this claim, but such a user-generated image can not be used as a source. Maybe other editors will agree with you, but, for the time being, before consensus for your desired change is reached, you should not reinstate this edit. You can ask for a third opinion using WP:3O. —Alalch E. 14:30, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

But why do you disagree with putting it in the article? That's one of the things people call it...

• https://twitter.com/BBCSteveR/status/1672559780475588613
• https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/90120
• https://news.zerkalo.io/world/42231.html
• https://top war.ru/220404-marsh-spravedlivosti-zvonok-dlja-sistemy-vozmozhno-poslednij.html
• https://mkam.business-gazeta.ru/news/598516
• https://cyclo wiki.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%88_%D1%81%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8, etc. — Omegatron (talk) 14:54, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

It isn't so much that reliable sources call the event "March of Justice", it's that Prigozhin characterized the rebellion as a march of justice, from his point of view. We can't just call it a March of Justice becauase Prigozhin proclaimed it to be a march of justice. —Alalch E. 17:23, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

• It is a searchable name of the event regardless who coined it hence belongs to the lede. We can't just call - no we cannot and we didnt. The sources did. (And I clarified in the lede who coined the term.) - Altenmann >talk

Do you contest these edits:

• Special:Diff/1201950257, with the summary: rm citation template containing a broken link
• Special:Diff/1201951962, with the summary: rm WP:NYPOST reference [and, for the sake of clarity, I am linking to WP:NYPOST because it is a link to a table row in Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, which lists New York Post {which is not The New York Times} as a ***generally unreliable*** source
• Special:Diff/1201953198, with the summary: quote Prigozhin per body -- this is already included in the body within a quote of Prigozhin [not in title caps and in boldface, and not without quotation marks], and per MOS:LEADCITE, this information does not need a citation in the lead
• Special:Diff/1201958819, with the summary: the second paragraph has much better context for this quote

?—Alalch E. 18:47, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Whatever the edits, the current state of the lede is OK with me. I am de-watching the page; it was my "drive-by edit", I have no interest in the subject. - Altenmann >talk 19:42, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

Boldfaced quote

@Omegatron: I understand that you see the quote of Prigozhin as a significant alternative name under MOS:BOLDALTNAMES, but I don't think that it is a significant alternative name, and is not generally an alternative name at all, but is a way to convey a part of Prigozhin's rhetoric. When the sources are mentioning the "march of justice" phrase, they are informing the reader that Prigozhin characterized the rebellion as Wagner's "march of justice". The phrase does not redirect to the article: The part of MOS:BOLDALTNAMES saying which should usually also redirect to the article and MOS:BOLDREDIRECT are not fulfilled. There have been many other "marches of justice"/"marches for justice" in history. That's why March of Justice redirects to a disambiguation page. That's not the same as it being a redirect. This is a generic phrase and is not a significant alternative name for this event.—Alalch E. 11:59, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I've listed multiple sources of it being used as a name for the event. I was trying to remember the name that I'd heard and didn't see it in Wikipedia, so I added it. Inclusion in Wikipedia is based on notability and verifiability, not your personal opinion about whether it was actually a "march of justice" or not. — Omegatron (talk) 18:49, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

June 2023 "sharp ruble decline" following wagner rebellion

There is a piece in here about the ruble "sharply" declining and reaching the lowest value since march 2022.... except june 2023 had no sharp decline and following the first half of the month the exchange rate of the ruble was rising. Can we check things like financial statements even if we are not experts? This was a very clearly false statement and needs to be fact checked. 2604:3D08:EC81:D300:982:FEAD:AC96:1039 (talk) 17:56, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

I just checked the source *223 and it had no mention of ruble, decline, or exchange. Time to fix this statement and delete it entirely. 2604:3D08:EC81:D300:982:FEAD:AC96:1039 (talk) 18:03, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 February 2024

Under the subheading Measures of NATO Countries, the g is missing from the German Minister of Defense's Title. 25huckaby noah (talk) 15:26, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 16:06, 27 February 2024 (UTC)