Talk:Viva Forever

Geri vocals

I'm pretty sure that in this song, Geri does have solo vocals at the very end of the song. I'm not sure if this would have affected live performances but she definetly still had them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.141.116.191 (talk) 13:29, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Video details.

The "girl" described is in fact a boy. Also, the opinions at the end concerning a meaning for the video are neither Verifiable or Neutral.

Bob4jane 23:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

If that person's a boy, then I'm a cat. Neo222

I agree with Neo222 that the character is a girl. Her long hair length, her clothes, and certain facial features points towards the fact that she is a girl. I think it is essential to offer an opinion for this video because that is what many people use this page for. I tried to make it seem more neutral, but it is definitely not verifiable. --Cluelessperson 03:53, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Main Character is definetely a boy.

I dont get it! The two kids in the video are a boy and a girl???? i ALWAYS thought that they were boys! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.45.111.67 (talk) 02:48, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

And I always thought Neo222 was a cat --Mr Rofl 17:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

If the Spice Girls had released their song in the United States, I am sure that it would has been a top ten —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.45.111.67 (talk) 08:45, August 27, 2007 (UTC)

Both human characters in the video are boys. From http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/117098.stm

"For Viva Forever, he created five, 12ins-high Spice Girl tin puppets with wings who coax one of two astonished real-life boys into growing up."

69.234.188.173 06:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

That thing doesnt prove nothing. Is and old new and it says about the pre production of the video. Maybe they didnt know if the kids in the video would be a girl or a boy

Maybe originally they were two boys but decided to change it? It wouldn't be the first time BBC go their facts wrong. I still firmly believe it's a girl. Neo222 (talk) 21:41, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Viva Forever/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: K. Peake (talk · contribs) 09:28, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Was considering to review this previously but had not made my mind up; it has been in the queue for over three weeks by now so this is only fair! --K. Peake 09:28, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi K. Peake, thank you for taking part of your time to review the article. I'll start making changes to the first sections, and leave comments if I have any questions. Thanks again. Frcm1988 (talk) 03:19, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Infobox and lead

• Remove the recording date from the infobox since it is unsourced
• Pop should one of the genres instead of Latin pop since the latter is unsourced but the former is
• WP:OVERLINK of Spice Girls under songwriters
• "from their second album," → "from their second studio album,"
• "It was co-written by" → "The song was co-written by"
• "whilst produced by the latter two." → "while production was handled by the latter of the two."
• The lead is out of order after this sentence; you should mention it being released as the album's "fourth and final single" here instead, though that should be its own sentence rather than being merged with the commercial info in a sentence and I will provide further instructions in this review
• "The song is a" → "It is a"
• Wikilink pop ballad per MOS:LINK2SECT
• "The single's release was delayed" → "The release of "Viva Forever" was delayed"
• "affected by Geri Halliwell's departure from the group, and the" → "being affected by Geri Halliwell's departure from the Spice Girls and the subsequent"
• Critical reception should be the one directly after the above sentence; follow this by the commercial info
• "The music video," → "An accompanying music video," with the wikilink and this should be the start of the third para instead, coming after commercial in the new order
• "and took five months" → "and it took five months"
• "It was commissioned months" → "The video was commissioned months"
• "departure, and as such she is featured in it and" → "departure and as such, she is featured in it and on"
• "was the group's last song performed" → "was the Spice Girls' last song to be performed" and this sentence will be after the music video ones in the third para in this order, though the order may be the subject to change from me once all of the sentences have been re-arranged
• "received mixed reviews, receiving criticsm" → "received mixed reviews from music critics, being panned" with the target
• "and unfavorable comparisons" → "and garnering unfavourable comparisons" since this is British English, also why is there no mention of anything the critics praised as the reviews are classified as "mixed" overall?

Perhaps I should reword this part? The production have some good (Salon.com, Orange County Register) but mostly bad (Newsday, Rolling Stone, The Independent) reviews, and the Madonna comparisons are sometimes more descriptive (Music Week, Chicago Sun-Times, Chicago Tribune) and other times are negative (Los Angeles Times, New York Daily News). Frcm1988 (talk) 06:46, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Maybe you should mention the production received "less negative" reviews to make it clear that it was more like mixed to negative for that aspect? --K. Peake 11:23, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

• "it was a commercial" → "the song was a commercial"
• "staying there for two weeks and becoming the group's seventh number-one in the UK." → "becoming the group's seventh number one in the United Kingdom and staying at the position for two weeks."
• BPI sentence should come after the music charts one
• "It was certified platinum by" → "It has since been certified platinum in the UK by"
• ""Viva Forever" was successful on" → "The song was successful on"
• "Canada, and Oceania." → "as well as in Canada, and Oceania."

Background

• Remove wikilink on Spice Girls since they are the lead artist
• "did a promotional visit to the" → "went on a promotional visit to the"
• "to announce their upcoming movie" → "where they announced their then-upcoming movie"
• Add release year of the movie in brackets
• "They began shooting scenes for the film" → "The group began shooting scenes for the movie"
• "for their second album Spiceworld, set" → "for Spiceworld, which was set"
• "released in November." → "released in November 1997."
• "the group had to do" → "the Spice Girls had to do"
• "shooting the film." → "shooting the movie."
• "The schedule was physically" → "Their schedule was physically"
• "exhaustion set in."" → "exhaustion set in"." for consistency
• "the group worked with" → "the Spice Girls worked with"
• "from their debut album," → "from their debut studio album"
• Add release year of the album in brackets
• "of their contributions" → "of their musical contributions"
• Spacing is not needed after the first speech mark for the title "Who Do You Think You Are"
• "with the group, did a couple" → "with the Spice Girls, worked on a couple"
• "to get involved in the proyect" → "to get involved for the album"

Writing and inspiration

• "wrote for their second album, Spiceworld." → "wrote for Spiceworld."
• "after the filming on the" → "after filming for the"
• "Originally called "Obrigado",–which means thank you in Portuguese–it" → "Originally entitled "Obrigado", which means thank you in Portuguese, it"
• "was written by the group with the songwriting team" → "was written by the Spice Girls with the songwriting team of"
• "for the its theme" → "for the song's theme"
• Target Mediterranean to Mediterranean Sea
• "they met during those holidays." → "the group met while on the holidays."

Composition

• Retitle to Composition and lyrics
• "with an instrumental" → "which is preceded by an instrumental" on the audio sample text
• Wikilink acoustic guitar
• ""Viva Forever" is a pop ballad with" → "Musically, "Viva Forever" is a pop ballad, with" with the wikilink per MOS:LINK2SECT
• "set on common time," → "set in common time,"
• Remove comma after introduction
• Target chorus to Refrain
• "Musically, the song employs" → "The song employs"
• "including the sound" → "including the sounds"
• Remove comma after Freaky Trigger
• "mentioned that they purposely" → "mentioned that the Spice Girls purposely"
• "all our songs."" → "all our songs"."
• "altought he added that lyrically it" → "although he said lyrically, it"
• "El Hunt of the NME was also critical of the" → "El Hunt of NME also remarked on the"
• Target fridge magnets to Refrigerator magnet

Release and promotion

• I am confused, why are live performances listed throughout this section that are listed later on in this article within the entire section dedicated to them? It makes sense for the info about Halliwell but not the remainder...

I have removed the sentence about theTop of the Pops performance from this section, but kept the one that mentions the performance on The National Lottery since this was the first time the British public saw them without Halliwell and will be the starting point of the media frenzy about the end of the group. Frcm1988 (talk) 06:48, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

• "On 22 April," → "On 22 April 1998,"
• Target single to Single (music)
• "of "Viva Forever" with" → "consisting of "Viva Forever" with"
• "written by the group" → "that was written by the group"
• "On 26 May, the group traveled back to the UK" → "On 26 May 1998, the Spice Girls travelled back to the United Kingdom"
• "the Spice Girls' lawyer," → "their lawyer,"
• "informed that Halliwell has" → "stated that Halliwell has"
• "to the rest of the members." what is the use of "to" in this context, did you mean to put "due to" or something else even?

Not sure about this part. Im trying to explain that it was the Spice Girls' lawyer Andrew Thompson the one that told the other 4 members of the group that Halliwell was leaving. From what I gathered from Beckham's and Brown's autobiographies and later televised interviews, is that when they returned from Finland to the UK (26 May), they all went to their homes knowing that the next day they will be live on tv and then fly to Norway, but Halliwell didn't said she was leaving until the morning on 27 May, and not directly to the other girls but through Thompson, and was later confirmed when she didn't appear for the performance on The National Lottery. Frcm1988 (talk) 07:24, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Change to "told the rest of the members that Halliwell has decided to leave the group." probably? Also, the img should either be moved, replaced or removed since that performance is not mentioned at all in this section. --K. Peake 11:23, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

• "The same day, they" → "That same day, they"
• "where they perform" → "where they performed"
• "midweek row in the plane" → "midweek row on the plane"
• "The group then" → "The Spice Girls then"
• "of the tour as" → "of the tour performance as"
• "The rest of the group announced" → "The remaining group members announced"
• "through the summer with" → through the summer of 1998 with"
• "dates in July." → "dates in July 1998."
• "In late June," → "In late June 1998,"
• Wikilink airplay
• "and Capital FM's Pepsi Chart." → "and Capital FM's the Pepsi Chart."
• "it reached the top five" → "the song reached the top five"
• "appearing in the B-list," → "appearing on the B-list,"
• "commercially released in the United Kingdom" → "commercially released in the UK"
• "an Enhanced CD, included" → "an enhanced CD, included"
• Remove wikilink on singer-songwriter and target on producer
• "it contains a" → "the CD contained a"
• "of the band, scrolling" → "of the Spice Girls, scrolling"
• Target cursor to Cursor (user interface)
• Wikilink music video
• Remove wikilinks on "Who Do You Think You Are" and "Say You'll Be There"
• "was used in the" → "was used for the"

Critical reception

• "received a mixed response from music critics. Many of them" → "was met with mixed reviews from music critics, many of whom" with the target
• "Sylvia Patterson of the NME characterized" → "Sylvia Patterson of NME characterized"
• Remove wikilink on Flamenco
• Remove target on Spiceworld
• "the Contra Costa Times described" → "the staff of the Contra Costa Times described"
• "a similar review. He considered the ballads mediocre, and dismissed" → "a similar review, considering the ballads mediocre and dismissing"
• The R&B quote's source should be used for composition and mention there that the song is R&B next to the pop ballad status; reword accordingly, obviously
• Target Salon.com to Salon (website)
• "on the album were bland" → "on Spiceworld are bland"
• Target pop to Pop music
• "he added that it is" → "with him adding it is"
• "Spanish accents"," → "Spanish accents"."
• "Cary Darling named it one" → "Cary Darling named the song one"
• "said that the song" → "said that the song does"
• Remove wikilink on Music Week
• "called it the group's version" → "called the song the Spice Girls' version"
• "view it more as" → "viewed it more as"
• "Roger Catlin, noted the similarities between the songs" → "Roger Catlin noted the similarities between the two songs"
• "added that it borrows" → "added that the song borrows"
• "of [...] Madonna."" → "of [...] Madonna"."
• "described it as" → "described the song as"
• "to their debut album," → "to the group's debut studio album Spice (1996),"
• "that is similar to" → "in a manner that is similar to"

Chart performance

• Retitle to Commercial performance
• Why is the img here when it is about a live performance?
• ""Viva Forever" was released in the UK in July 1998. It debuted at the top of the" → "Upon its release as a single, "Viva Forever" debuted atop the"
• "becoming the group's" → "becoming the Spice Girls'"
• "number-one as a" → "number one as a"
• "The single sold" → "In the UK, the song sold"
• "It spend two weeks at number one," → "The song spent two weeks at number one on the UK Singles Chart,"
• "in the top forty, thirteen weeks in the top seventy-five," → "in the top 40, 13 weeks in the top 75," per MOS:NUM
• "by the British Phonographic Industry (BPI) in August 1998." → "by the British Phonographic Industry (BPI) for selling 600,000 copies in the UK in August 1998."
• "As of May 2019, it sold" → "As of May 2019, it has sold"

I have made most of the changes suggested above, but I think is redundant to put UK after every sentence since the entire paragraph is about the song's British commercial performance.

You are mostly correct, though it is needed in the certification sentence --K. Peake 10:03, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

• "peaked inside the top ten in" → "while peaking inside the top 10 in" per MOS:NUM
• Six refs at the end of the sentence is too many; each ref should come after its appropriate comma in the sentence but only being invoked once each
• "inside the top twenty" → "inside the top 20" per MOS:NUM
• "France and Norway." → "France, and Norway."
• "reaching the top" → "reaching the top position"
• "the last week of July." → "the last week of July 1998."
• "On 10 August 1998, it" → "On 10 August, the song"
• "reaching a peak" → "later reaching a peak position"
• "It ended at" → "The song ended at"
• Identify the New Zealand chart by name but keep the wikilink
• "the group's second number-one and their eighth top ten single" → "the group's second number one and eighth top 10 single"
• "at the top for two weeks, eleven weeks" → "at the top position for two weeks, while remained on the chart for 11 weeks" per MOS:NUM
• "in October 1998." → "for sales of 30,000 units in New Zealand in October 1998."
• ""Viva "Forever" debuted on the ARIA Charts at number fifty-nine" → ""Viva Forever" debuted on the ARIA Singles Chart at number 59" per MOS:NUM
• "top ten single in the country." → "top 10 single in Australia."
• "It remained on the chart for twenty-one weeks," → "The song remained on the chart for 21 weeks,"
• "in 1998." → "for selling 50,000 units in the country in 1998."

Music video

Development

• Retitle to Background
• Target fairies to Fairy on the img text and wikilink music video
• Add release year of Wallace and Gromit in brackets

Wallace and Gromit is the name of the franchise, which includes many movies, a tv show, and videogames. The first thing they released was a short film in 1989. Are you sure this should be included?

Sorry I was not aware of this context upon the initial comments from me; no it should not be included after all --K. Peake 10:03, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

• "and the comedy film" → "and the 2000 comedy film"
• "to make Spiceworld: The Movie." → "to make the Spice World movie."
• "created five, 12-inch-high" → "created five 12-inch-high"
• "modeled after each Spice Girl," → "modelled after each group member,"
• "The video's main theme" → "The music video's main theme"
• "to appear at the" → "to appear on the"
• "He commented that this" → "Box commented that this"
• "was unexpected.”" → "was unexpected"."

Synopsis

• Why is the entire sub-section unsourced apart from [7], or is that used to back up everything? If the latter is true, then invoke it at the end of each para; if false, then find other source(s)

Since this is a plot of the music video, the source will be the video itself. There are not many secondary sources that describes music videos of that time in detail, unless it is a well known song or video. Per MOS:PLOTSOURCE Im not including a reference, the article from REF 7 is from a magazine published by the Spice Girls and I used it to source the 70s setting, since there is nothing in the music video itself that directly implies that.

• "The video, set in the 70s," → "The music video, set in the 70s," with the target
• "running around the woods" → "who are running around the woods"
• "by itself which reveals" → "by itself, which reveals"
• "It opens by" → "The case opens by"
• "dance on the cube, to the song," → "dance on the cube to the song,"
• "Meanwhile the younger boy" → "Meanwhile, the younger boy"
• "but still over-sized." → "but it is still over-sized."
• "He then walks" → "The boy then walks"
• "which contains other cases." → "that contains other cases."
• "throws it in" → "throws the case in"

Live performances

• "The Return of the Spice Girls Tour, February 2008." → "the Return of the Spice Girls Tour, in February 2008." on the img text
• "the group recorded the performance" → "they recorded their performance"
• "departure from the group." → "departure from the Spice Girls."
• Remove wikilink on The National Lottery Live
• "The show aired after on" → "The show later aired on"
• "on the annually hosted" → "at the annually hosted"
• Target Pavarotti and Friends to Pavarotti & Friends
• "This performance was broadcast" → "The performance was broadcast"
• "in the compilation album" → "on the compilation album"
• Add release year of the album/DVD in brackets
• "On August, while on tour," → "In August, while the group were on tour,"
• Five citations at the end of the sentence about their tours is too many; move them around to being after the appropriate comma for each but you can still have some at the end of the sentence that should be there instead
• "during "Viva Forever"," → "during their performance of "Viva Forever","
• "be found on the video:" → "be found on the video album"
• Mention the album's release date/year

The article mentions that the Spice Girls Live at Wembley Stadium video was filmed on 20 September 1998. It was released on 24 November 1998. Should I just mention that it was released two months later to avoid repeating the year?

Yes, that is ideal; I was a bit sceptical about repetitive wording initially but good job on your part to help stop it! --K. Peake 10:03, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

• Remove wikilink on flamenco
• "the performance finished" → "while the performance finished"
• "her leaving the band" → "her leaving the group"
• Identify Beckham as Victoria Beckham with the wikilink and where is it sourced that Halliwell sang her part?

I removed this sentence.

Formats and track listings

• Heading is not needed and why are none of these accompanied by the appropriate sources?

I can provide the info for the physical releases, but they are mostly the same info with different serial numbers and printing places. Do you have a suggestion to avoid it looking too cluttered with citations?

"These are the formats and track listings of major single releases of "Viva Forever":" text is unnecessary is what I meant, though maybe you could just add one citation for each track listing to back them up respectively because these are not called "various" so you do not need numerous citations for each track listing? --K. Peake 10:03, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Credits and personnel

• "Viva Forever" sub heading is not needed, as you have identified the initial credits as being for that song directly above
• Use {{spaced ndash}} so there is the right space between credits and personnel (do this for all of the credits)
• Target Richard Stannard to Biffco
• Target Mark "Spike" Spent to Spike Stent
• Target recording engineer to Audio engineer
• Wikilink CD singles
• Interactive Video and Artwork do not need speech marks around them
• Are you sure the publishing info is in the correct place?

Where do you suggest I place it? Or should I remove it entirely?

Probably remove it entirely to be honest, I do not really see this included in the personnel section even when booklets source it --K. Peake 10:03, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Charts

Weekly charts

• Target Eurochart Hot 100 to European Hot 100 Singles
• Target Mahasz to Association of Hungarian Record Companies

Year-end charts

• Annual chart performance for "Viva Forever" → 1998 year-end chart performance for "Viva Forever"

Certifications and sales

• Good

References

• Copyvio score looks decent at 34.2%
• Make sure all of these (that can be) are archived by using the tool
• Wikilink Virgin Records on ref 8
• Remove the publisher from refs 12 and 94
• Remove the publisher from refs 14 and 99
• Target EMAP to Ascential on ref 16
• Remove BBC from ref 17 and cite BBC News as publisher instead
• Ditto for refs 20, 24, 55, 56, 84, 85, and 87 but with no wikilink
• Remove the publisher from refs 22 and 45
• Remove or replace ref 25 per WP:RSP

I replaced it with a source from The Telegraph.

• Remove the publisher from ref 27
• Remove wikilink on Spice Girls for ref 37
• Harniman Cook, Janet should have the last name cited followed by the first and middle name on ref 38, plus remove the publisher

I am not sure but isn't Harniman Cook a compound last name? Or is Harniman her middle name?

It is not double barrel so you should place the middle name in the firstname parameter, as this is what I've been taught is the procedure on Wiki

• Remove the publisher from ref 40
• Wikilink Tribune Publishing on ref 41
• Remove the publisher from ref 42
• Cite Salon.com as the sole publisher instead for ref 44 and target to Salon (website)
• The Orange County Register → Orange County Register on ref 46
• Remove the publisher from ref 47
• Remove the publisher from ref 52
• Ref 72 is missing publisher
• Cite Screenonline as publisher instead for ref 81 and remove the other
• Remove the publisher from ref 82
• WP:OVERLINK of The Independent on ref 83
• Remove the publisher from ref 86
• WP:OVERLINK of Los Angeles Times on ref 88 and remove the publisher
• Cite AllMusic as publisher instead for 89 with the wikilink and remove the other
• Remove the publisher from ref 91
• Remove the publisher from ref 93
• Remove the publisher from ref 95
• Cite Canoe.com as publisher instead for ref 98 and remove the other
• Remove the publisher from ref 100
• Wikilink Daily Mirror on ref 101 and remove the publisher
• Remove wikilinks on Spice Girls and Virgin Records for both refs 102 and 103
• Remove ARIA Charts from ref 114
• Ref 115 is missing the publisher
• Cite GfK Entertainment as publisher instead for ref 120 and target to GfK Entertainment charts; remvoe the other
• Ref 125 is missing the publisher
• Lack of original URL for ref 131

This is from the template, I can't change the parameters. Frcm1988 (talk) 05:04, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

Final comments and verdict

•  On hold after I already replied to your above comments and will do so to any more if required; this status will remain until all issues are fixed! --K. Peake 11:23, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

• Frcm1988 Impressed with your responses, though I have made comments above where I disagree and fixes are still pending. --K. Peake 10:03, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

K. Peake I think I have resolved or responded to all of your observations, please let me know if there is anything missing or any additional comments. Thanks. Frcm1988 (talk) 07:14, 1 December 2020 (UTC)

Frcm1988 ✓ Pass now after some copy editing from me that involved removing the image from release and promotion since the performance at Wembley Stadium is irrelevant to that section, plus thank you for a timely and constructive response! --K. Peake 11:28, 1 December 2020 (UTC)