Talk:Vasili III of Russia

Untitled

Is Vasili III the same person as Grand Duke Basil the Third?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  04:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes.

Vasili and Basil are often interchangeable when looking at medieval Russia- I do not know about other areas and time periods though.--JaymzRR 08:01, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Vasily the Adequate

I have never heard or read anywhere that he would be called by this name. Can somebody give some sources? Or is this purely Western term? Vasily the III is considered to be a very powerful and far-sighted ruler, i doubt someone would mock him in that way. F.Alexsandr (talk) 17:23, 30 June 2020 (UTC)

Title

@Mellk Alright, let's have that discussion. Google Scholar results:

• "vasily III of moscow": 16 results
• "vasili III of russia": 15 results
• "vasili III of moscow": 7 results
• "vasily III of russia": 2 results

Ngram doesn't work (again)

Google Books results (only manually counting books in which the exact word combination is in bold, because Google Books often gives "results" in which the combo cannot be found):

• "vasily III of moscow": 34 results
• "vasili III of russia": 11 results
• "vasili III of moscow": 10 results
• "vasily III of russia": 8 results

And the WP:COMMONNAME competition winner is.... Vasily III of Moscow! Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:55, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

My only gripe is that the number of results for those particular combinations seem too low to determine the common name. For example, I get more results for "Vasili III Ivanovich" or "Vasily III Ivanovich". Mellk (talk) 09:33, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, but we are not titling our articles -ovich when it comes to monarchs, are we? The convention is Foo (number) of Barland for kings/queens and above, and Foo (number), (title) of Barland below the royal level. E.g. William III of England because he was a king, but William IV, Prince of Orange because he was not a king/queen, sultan, emir, emperor, caesar, augustus, tsar, caliph etc. Come to think of it, according to the guidelines this article might actually need to be titled Vasily III, Grand Prince/Duke of Moscow per William IV, Prince of Orange, Cosimo I de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany, etc. But I don't think we need to do that unless it solves an actual problem. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:16, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

PS: WP:SOVEREIGN #5 European monarchs whose rank is below that of king (e.g., grand dukes, electors, dukes, princes), should be at the location "{Monarch's first name and ordinal}, {Title} of {Country}". The question is then whether the title of velikiy knyaz is on or below the rank of "king". It's usually translated as "grand prince" or "grand duke", so I would think below the rank of king. On the other hand, some have made the etymological argument that knyaz may be a cognate of Old Norse konungr and may share a common ancestor with proto-Germanic *kuningaz, which I find plausible, but this is not commonly applied in WP:RS. (I've seen Ostrowski calling the Kievan Rus' knyaz a "king", but he is in a small minority). tsar is definitely above the level of king, so from Ivan the Terrible onwards this rule doesn't apply. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:31, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Depends on what name is more recognizable. Why not just Vasily III which already redirects to here? There is no need to disambiguate. Obviously this would be necessary for something like Charles I but not for those such as Mieszko I etc. Mellk (talk) 10:42, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Good question. There are other meanings of "Vasily III" (e.g. ru:Василий III (значения)). The two others listed there are known on English Wikipedia as Basil III of Constantinople and Vasilije Petrović, but it is essentially the same name and number.

Also as a convention, I think it would be better to keep the of Moscow format because it makes identification of articles by title easier (you can immediately tell which state he reigned over), and it makes linking easier. E.g there was more than one Ivan III, which I think should redirect to Ivan III (disambiguation).

On the whole, I think Vasily III of Moscow is our best choice. As long as no other article is written under the title of Vasily III, it can redirect to Vasily III of Moscow. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 11:48, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Are there any sources that refer to them as "Vasily III"? In Russian of course "Василий III" is used but we have "Basil" and "Vasilije". I suppose an example is Henry VII of England and Henry VIII, where "Henry VIII" is used to refer to the English monarch usually. Also, we have Basil I and Vasily I of Moscow, Basil II and Vasily II of Moscow etc. Mellk (talk) 11:54, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

@Mellk I suppose you're right. I can't find any "Vasily III" on Google Books other than this one. Just "Vasily III" would avoid the whole issue of deciding whether to call him of Moscow or of Russia altogether. It's a different case with Ivan III, but that's a different article. I'm okay with "Vasily III" as the new title. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:27, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes I was thinking that if it was the primary topic then we would be OK with just "Vasily III". It might also be fine with Vasily I and II (but just need to double check). I am just glad to not have the awkward inconsistencies between "Vasily" and "Vasili". Mellk (talk) 09:48, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 6 May 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Since this discussion seems to have focused on the "of Russia" part and missed the Vasili/Vasily part, a separate RM can be done on that.(closed by non-admin page mover) CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 05:19, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

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Vasili III of Russia → Vasily III – Per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Currently, Vasili III and Vasily III redirect here. Also, "Vasily" tends to be the more common spelling of the subject. See Ngram as an example of usage. Mellk (talk) 19:34, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom and above discussion. We already agreed, but given the controversy over the title of a related article, I appreciate the prudence of an RM just in case anyone objects. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 00:29, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:NCROY. The modifiers should only be left off for very famous or unambiguous cases where COMMONNAME applies - the default should be to include the country, these rulers are too obscure in English to qualify for a COMMONNAME argument. SnowFire (talk) 04:39, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

  This is not based on the common name argument, the argument is there is no need to include country because there is no need to disambiguate. The namestock is also different. What other European monarchs are called "Vasily"? Mellk (talk) 05:01, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

  What Mellk says. I initially also thought it was necessary to identify the country, but in English literature there is no other "Vasily III". Even though in Russian literature, Basil III of Constantinople and Vasilje III of Montenegro are also spelt as "Vasily III", English literature uses the endonyms.

  Besides, WP:NCROY doesn't seem to cover cases like Charles III (which quickly became the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC) or cases like Vasily III of Moscow/Russia, where probably nobody else in English literature is named "Vasily III of Anything-Other-Than-Moscow/Russia". Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:16, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

  PS: By endonym I mean the fact that the name Basil in e.g. Basil III of Constantinople comes from the Greek word basileus meaning "king". Russian has adopted it as "Vasily" and apparently started applying it even to Greeks themselves who used a form closer to the Greek original. Compare it to how English literature has named Ἰάκωβος τοῦ Ζεβεδαίου James, son of Zebedee. "James" is the commonly used spelling for the Greek (originally Hebrew) name Iacobos. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:26, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

  Apparently NCROY is clear about this but I do not see this. Poland is not mentioned as an example of having a different namestock but it makes sense to have Mieszko I rather than Mieszko I of Poland because no one else is called this. Mellk (talk) 21:02, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose. per WP:NCROY. Walrasiad (talk) 09:40, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
• Strong oppose - WP:NCRAN is clear. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 12:46, 7 May 2023 (UTC)
• Comment The OP @User:Mellk did not alert that he also started RMs to change Vasily I of Moscow and Vasily II of Moscow. This is rather bad form. You should not undertake three related RMs simultaneously without waiting for the outcome of the first. You should have done it as a multi-move, or at least alerted editors that they are going on simultaneously. This forces editors to find and track three separate conversations on essentially the same move to be undertaken simultaneously, and replicate replies for one to be pasted to the other. Discussion should be concentrated in one place. Walrasiad (talk) 20:56, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

  My mistake. I left a comment on the others. But I do not think a multi-move would be best here. There are some differences. Mellk (talk) 21:03, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

  Walrasiad is probably right that doing three simultaneous related RMs created a bit of a complicated situation, but I agree with Mellk that they are each different. I support this one, and I have initiated the Ivan III of Moscow RM myself, but I lean oppose to the Vasily II RM. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 23:11, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:NCROY and WP:RECOGNIZABILITY. The primary redirect is sufficient. Estar8806 (talk) 21:32, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.