Talk:Tredegar House Country Park
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Tredegar Park v Tredegar House Country Park
editThere was a discussion at Talk:Tredegar Park, Newport#Requested move 9 August 2018 where it was pointed out that this article is titled "Tredegar House Country Park" instead of "Tredegar Park", but as noted at Commons:Category talk:Llangelynin "Tredegar Park" is at least an alternative name so the administrative division still requires disambiguation from it. My suggestion was that disambiguation from the park also located in Newport was needed but I wasn't sure if it should be to Tredegar Park (community), Tredegar Park (ward) or Tredegar Park (district) etc. The discussion was closed after over a month as no consensus and while I accept and appreciate that it was a difficult close, it was quite clear that the page couldn't be left where it was. For procedural reasons we don't have the base name point to a topic located in Newport and then disambiguate the other also in Newport with "Newport", see Talk:Corfe Castle (village)#Requested move 12 April 2014. There was then discussion with the closer and Amakuru where it was pointed out that "Tredegar Park" and "Tredegar House Country Park" appear to be 2 different parks. The article from its creation in 2004 has indicated that its about the whole park, including the part north of the A48 as it notes that it is also near Gaer. Also the Duffryn estate was built on "Tredegar Park" and if you go here, click on the map, you can see that the green area is part of Tredegar Park.
I suggest that either we rename this back to "Tredegar Park" and include info on "Tredegar House Country Park" in it or alternatively (still) rename this back to "Tredegar Park" but then redirect "Tredegar House Country Park" to Tredegar House and include info there.
What would be the appropriate title for the community/ward given that the boundaries appear to be identical, Tredegar Park (community), Tredegar Park (ward) or Tredegar Park (district)? Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:00, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
- Perhaps User:Mattcymru2 could first tell us if it's a community or not? A ward need not be a community, I believe. Although, in some cases, it may be. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:16, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
- That's also a good point. The topic covered at Tredegar Park, Newport appears to be an utterly unnotable electoral ward which doesn't correspond to any sort of community at all, and isn't really worthy of an article. The community covered by the ward is primarily that of Duffryn. — Amakuru (talk) 22:57, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
- @Amakuru: In this case "community" is an administrative diversion, the equivalent of civil parishes in England, so its clearly notable, however I was pointing out that the community (civil parish) and ward don't need 2 separate articles, as they have the same boundaries. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:42, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- Would certainly agree with that. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:01, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- @Amakuru: In this case "community" is an administrative diversion, the equivalent of civil parishes in England, so its clearly notable, however I was pointing out that the community (civil parish) and ward don't need 2 separate articles, as they have the same boundaries. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:42, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- That's also a good point. The topic covered at Tredegar Park, Newport appears to be an utterly unnotable electoral ward which doesn't correspond to any sort of community at all, and isn't really worthy of an article. The community covered by the ward is primarily that of Duffryn. — Amakuru (talk) 22:57, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
It appears to work okay with hatnotes (though I notice there currently isn't a hatnote on Tredegar Park, Newport. If there were more places called 'Tredegar Park' then we'd need a disambiguation page. It's difficult to decide whether a populated place where over 4000 people live is more or less important than a historical country gardens. I agree with Crouch that we don't need separate articles for the community and the ward. They are coterminous and appear to be unremarkable (sorry to anyone who lives in Tredegar Park). Sionk (talk) 09:43, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- The Tredegar Park, Newport needs moving somewhere, which would remove the need for a hatnote, as all the topics are located in Newport. As pointed out I'd say that the populated place is a sub topic of the park its self anyway so should be disambiguated anyway, so I don't think the question of which is more important is relevant. Crouch, Swale (talk) 09:49, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- Yes. Probably (community) is best. I hadn't appreciated that they are equivalent to parishes so thanks for clarifying that, Crouch. The other thing they strikes me though, is that the areas covered by Tredegar Park, Newport and Duffryn are almost the same. Could they be merged into one article which has sections on both the informal community of Duffryn and the civil community of Tredegar Park? — Amakuru (talk) 09:54, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe but there was a CP (before Welsh CPs were replaced with communities) called Dyffryn. Looking at some of the coverage and history, I'd say that separate articles should remain, even though Duffryn mainly focuses on the modern estate which indeed is similar to the community Tredegar Park. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:08, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- If anything, I'd say Tredegar House Country Park should be moved to Tredegar Park (country park) (and I don't see any evidence it's called "Tredegar House Country Park").
- And Amakuru makes a good point about Duffryn, which seems to be identical to the community (it would be so much simpler if the community was called "Duffryn", which is well known in Newport). There would even be an argument for moving the ward article to Tredegar Park (ward) and redirecting Tredegar Park (community) to Duffryn. Sionk (talk) 10:16, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- "Tredegar House Country Park" is the name on the OS, however a Google search for that does mainly return things for the caravan park so maybe that name only applies to the small part south of junction 28, if so a move to Tredegar Park (country park) might make sense but I'd suggest just merging it to the rest of the park or the Tredegar House article.
- Redirecting the community to Duffryn would just create confusion though. But maybe in this case it would be easier if the article was at Tredegar Park (ward) instead with Tredegar Park (community) redirecting to it, but as pointed out in other discussions wards tend to change a lot so probably basing on the community would be best bet. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:31, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- It would be best to re-open a page move discussion at Tredegar Park, Newport, in the best Wikipedia tradition of re-opening a discussion until you get the answer you want ;) It's difficult to see agreement being reached, which is why I suggested a hatnote would be fine, then we can spend more time discussing important issues. Sionk (talk) 10:41, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- As far as the NT is concerned it's simply Tredegar House which includes "its surrounding gardens and parkland"? Why is the park not merged with Tredegar House? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:45, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- The discussion was closed without a move because several people has instead suggested that Tredegar Park, Newport should be moved to Tredegar Park (due to the park article being at Tredegar House Country Park), it was quite clear policy and consensus made that current title unacceptable, I brought it here to try to get a better consensus on what to do with both articles, then a new RM can be made. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:52, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- I think a merge, with appropriate redirects, would be easier all round. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:57, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- There's every good reason to include a section in the Tredegar House article about its extensive grounds. The grounds were an integral part of the property in its heyday. But nowadays the local authority treat the remaining grounds as a free-to-access public park, with events and facilities. So I think it warrants a standalone article. Sionk (talk) 12:07, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- To clarify do you think "Tredegar House Country Park" requires a separate article to the rest of the park, which should be at Tredegar Park. Crouch, Swale (talk) 14:28, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- @Crouch, Swale: that was also the point I made during the RM. Tredegar House Country Park refers to the grounds of Tredegar House, with the lake, which sit on the south side of the A48. Tredegar Park, on the other hand, is a municipal park on the north side of the A48. Perhaps they were once part of the same estate, but no longer. The Country Park was what I proposed merging into Tredegar House. I would also propose merging Tredegar Park (community) with Duffryn, as they are basically the same thing, and it is unusual to have separate "parish" and "village" articles where they are coterminous, even if they have separate names. This is particularly relevant here, given that the official community has virtually no presence, lacking a community council or similar. — Amakuru (talk) 09:48, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
- Amakuru, I think you've made a very clear and concise summary of the situation and I would agree with your suggestions. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:35, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me (I didn't realise there was a separate park to the country estate). I agree the community appears to be identical to the area commonly known as Duffryn. Sionk (talk) 11:14, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
- @Crouch, Swale: that was also the point I made during the RM. Tredegar House Country Park refers to the grounds of Tredegar House, with the lake, which sit on the south side of the A48. Tredegar Park, on the other hand, is a municipal park on the north side of the A48. Perhaps they were once part of the same estate, but no longer. The Country Park was what I proposed merging into Tredegar House. I would also propose merging Tredegar Park (community) with Duffryn, as they are basically the same thing, and it is unusual to have separate "parish" and "village" articles where they are coterminous, even if they have separate names. This is particularly relevant here, given that the official community has virtually no presence, lacking a community council or similar. — Amakuru (talk) 09:48, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
- To clarify do you think "Tredegar House Country Park" requires a separate article to the rest of the park, which should be at Tredegar Park. Crouch, Swale (talk) 14:28, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- There's every good reason to include a section in the Tredegar House article about its extensive grounds. The grounds were an integral part of the property in its heyday. But nowadays the local authority treat the remaining grounds as a free-to-access public park, with events and facilities. So I think it warrants a standalone article. Sionk (talk) 12:07, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- I think a merge, with appropriate redirects, would be easier all round. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:57, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- It would be best to re-open a page move discussion at Tredegar Park, Newport, in the best Wikipedia tradition of re-opening a discussion until you get the answer you want ;) It's difficult to see agreement being reached, which is why I suggested a hatnote would be fine, then we can spend more time discussing important issues. Sionk (talk) 10:41, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- Maybe but there was a CP (before Welsh CPs were replaced with communities) called Dyffryn. Looking at some of the coverage and history, I'd say that separate articles should remain, even though Duffryn mainly focuses on the modern estate which indeed is similar to the community Tredegar Park. Crouch, Swale (talk) 10:08, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- Yes. Probably (community) is best. I hadn't appreciated that they are equivalent to parishes so thanks for clarifying that, Crouch. The other thing they strikes me though, is that the areas covered by Tredegar Park, Newport and Duffryn are almost the same. Could they be merged into one article which has sections on both the informal community of Duffryn and the civil community of Tredegar Park? — Amakuru (talk) 09:54, 22 September 2018 (UTC)
- OK so we have:
- 1 Tredegar Park-A park that is divided into several parts including Tredegar House Country Park. The article currently deals with the whole park even though its titled "Tredegar House Country Park".
- 2 Tredegar Park (community)-A community which is named after the park which only covers part of it. This is currently titled "Tredegar Park, Newport".
- 3 Tredegar Park (ward)-A ward that is coterminous with the community.
- 4 Tredegar House Country Park-A part of Tredegar Park that contains Tredegar House. We don't actually have an article on it even though the article for the whole park uses this title.
- 5 Duffryn an estate that is located in (and occupies most of) the community/ward. It was previously Dyffryn and was also a CP.
- 6 Tredegar House-A house located in Tredegar House Country Park.
- We could end up with:
- A) Tredegar Park-An article on the whole park, including Tredegar House Country Park. This would mean moving the article at Tredegar House Country Park back to Tredegar Park. Tredegar Park (community) including the ward. This would mean moving Tredegar Park, Newport to "Tredegar Park (community)" and redirecting the old title to the park its self. 5 and 6 would remain the same. (My suggestion)
- B) Tredegar Park-An article on the whole park (as in A). This would mean moving the article at Tredegar House Country Park back to Tredegar Park, however then redirecting "Tredegar House Country Park" to Tredegar House instead. The edit history of Tredegar Park, Newport is moved to Tredegar Park (community) or Tredegar Park (ward) and then is merged with Duffryn. (Amakuru's suggestion) Correct me if any part of that was not precisely what you were suggesting-you might have been suggesting that we still keep Tredegar Park (ward) as an article.
- If the Tredegar House Country Park is much more closely associated with the house than the rest of the park as argued by Amakuru and Martin then that might point to the title going there, however as Sionk has pointed out that it appears somewhat more like the rest of the park which points back to having it with the rest of the park. With the 2nd point about merging the community into Duffryn. Given that Duffryn has some history and that there are both the ward and community called Tredegar Park then I'd weak oppose as I don't think its common to merge when they have distinct names. But given that we do have an article for the park, that might mitigate that, maybe the current community was based on Duffryn CP. Out of the other communities only a handful don't yet have an article and that's usually because one hasn't been written rather that they have been merged. I would note that while Washington, D.C. and District of Columbia don't have separate articles, Carlisle and County Borough of Carlisle do. Crouch, Swale (talk) 16:58, 23 September 2018 (UTC)