Talk:Tommy Johnson (footballer, born 1901)

GA nomination notes

This article is perhaps less comprehensive than I would usually nominate for GA, but this is a function of the paucity of sources available for players of this era when compared to more recent players. From a Manchester City perspective there are few books likely to contain further information. The Everton period may well be covered in more depth in books about Everton, though Johnson's Everton career is often overshadowed by that of his team-mate, the great Dixie Dean. However, this is a nomination for GA not FA so hopefully this is not a major problem. Oldelpaso (talk) 16:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

This article has been renamed from Tommy Johnson (striker) to Tommy Johnson (footballer born 1900) as the result of a move request.

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was - unopposed move in line with normal dab rules. Keith D (talk) 11:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Tommy Johnson (striker) → Tommy Johnson (footballer born 1900) — Current title of Tommy Johnson (striker) is not in line with standard disambiguation of football articles, also current title does not in fact disambiguate, as Tommy Johnson (footballer born 1971) is/was also a striker..... —ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

• Support per nom. пﮟოьεԻ 57 09:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
• Support absolutely. Consistent with extant policy. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:07, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
• Support per nom.
• Support per nom. – PeeJay 23:06, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

GA review

This is a nice article that I'm confident is close to GA. I've reviewed it in accordance with the good article criteria and I have only a few issues I think should be addressed before its promotion. I've been mindful as well of the available sources for footballers of this era.

• Some of the language is a little too flowery for my taste: "... scoring a brace in a 2–0 win ...", " ... acting as a foil for the prolific centre-forward Dixie Dean ...", " ... a forward line spearheaded by record-breaking goalscorer Dixie Dean ...", " ... featured for the club throughout the 1920s." To my ear that kind of phrasing is more appropriate for the sports pages of a tabloid than it is to an encyclopedia article.
  • Usually my prose is overly functional, so I guess I've avoided that, but gone too far! I am unsure how to rephrase the bits about Dixie Dean - Dean was unquestionably the focal point of the Everton team, and has a scoring record without parallel in the English game. As the centre-forward Dean was the one leading the line, and Johnson, an inside forward during his Everton days, would have played slightly behind with the aim of playing in Dean whenever possible.
• "Johnson scored twice in a British Home Championship win against Wales." What was the final score?
  • Done.
• "Portsmouth's match had been delayed by 15 minutes and was still in progress. A Portsmouth goal in those 15 minutes meant the final scoreline in their match was a 5–1 win". I know what this is trying to say, but the goal clearly wasn't scored in the 15 minute delay.
  • Done.
• Are there any clues as to why Johnson was sold to Everton in 1930, given the evident displeasure of the supporters on hearing the news?
  • Done.
• Johnson was the player-manager of Darwen until the outbreak of the Second World War, and he became a pub landlord after the war ended, but what was he doing during the war?
  • Unfortunately my sources give no indication of what Johnson did during the war.
• "In total, Johnson scored 166 goals in 354 appearances for Manchester City. This tally includes 158 league goals, the record for a Manchester City player and one more than Eric Brook, the team's all time leading goalscorer in all competitions." I think this probably needs a reference.
  • In investigating this further I have uncovered a statistical anomaly. While Brook did score one more league goal, it was scored in the abandoned 1939–40 season, for which the games were expunged from the records. I have amended it accordingly.
• "... by the end of the season he had scored 38 goals in 39 league appearances, a club record which still stands nearly 80 years later." I'm concerned about this statement ageing. What about something like "... which still stood in 2008" ? The reference quoted was published in 2002 though. Can another source be found showing that Johnson's record hasn't been beaten since then?
  • I've replaced the ref with the club records from the official club site.
• The most significant issue I have is with the format of the References section:

• "James, Gary (2005). The Official Manchester City Hall of Fame. Hamlyn, 20." Is that 20 a page number? If it is, why isn't it formatted as p20, as the later references are?

• ISBNs missing for three of the books.

• I'd strongly recommend splitting the references section up into two subsections, Notes and Bibliography. As it stands, the inconsistency in formatting makes it more difficult than it needs to be to see what the sources actually are. I'll change a couple of them to give you an idea what I'm talking about, but whether you go along with my suggested formatting or not, the references have to be consistently formatted.

So, not too much to do there I don't think, so I'm putting this article on hold. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 21:05, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

• I added an ISBN for one of the books. Another one, the Manchester City Official Handbook apparently does not have an ISBN (see here), and the third is a programme for a single match and is unlikely to have an ISBN. GaryColemanFan (talk) 20:43, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, I know that older books (or even all books) won't always have ISBNs, and I'm relaxed about the match programme. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 20:55, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

• With the one GaryColemanFan added (thanks for that and formatting the refs), ISBNs are included for every book which has one, my Manchester City Official Handbook is indeed ISBN-less. Oldelpaso (talk) 22:25, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the work that's been done on this article. It always grieves me when I can't list an article at GA, so I'm happy that in this case I now can. (I hope that I'll get double credit for doing that in this case, as a life-long Manchester United fan. ;-) ) Well done to everyone involved. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 22:31, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Date of birth

The article follows most sources (which no doubt copied each other) in stating his date of birth as 19 August 1900. The generally meticulously researched Englandfootballonline gives his date of birth as 19 August 1901. I have checked on Ancestry, which confirms that his birth was registered at Ulverston in the July-Sept 1901 quarter, he was baptised on 8 September 1901 at Dalton-in-Furness, and the death index records his date of birth as 19 August 1901. Unless there are objections, I therefore propose editing the article and moving it to Tommy Johnson (footballer, born 1901). Daemonickangaroo2018 (talk) 06:48, 5 September 2018 (UTC)