Talk:The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down

Section Deleted, Historical Inaccuracies should be on the article

The "Historical Inaccuracies" section of this article pointed out two flaws in the song's narrative from a historical standpoint. Someone erased this, leaving only the note on the page history that it was "irrelevant." If the song was so important in the sense that it reflected a historical event, it would seem VERY RELEVANT to the article to point out factual errors. I'm not sure why this was erased, but it really ought to be put back. --Ironchef8000 (talk) 05:34, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

I've deleted this section again; since the song does not claim to be a historical record, and the discussion of the song above does not claim that it is particularly based on correct historical detail, this is just nit-picking that adds no value to the reader's understanding of the topic. Moreover, the arguments do not hold; the song lyric says "by May the 10th", not "on May the 10th"; so the lyric is technically accurate as well as true to the spirit of the song (there was no CNN, news took a while to travel). And the song does not appear to claim that Lee "campaigned" in TN; in fact there is no strong agreement what that line is referring to, so there is nothing to argue with. Jgm (talk) 20:08, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

For the record, Richmond fell on or about April 3, 1865. 174.56.173.38 (talk) 16:18, 14 October 2023 (UTC) By the way, it would be relevant to the song insofar as some listeners might assume the date of Richmond's capitulation to be May 10, 1865.

Dictator Photo

The photo of the rail line at Petersburg is very inaccurately captioned. That is a Federal mortar, on a Federal track. Not Confederate. In fact it has very little connection to the song at all, other than also being from the Civil War.--Caswain01 (talk) 20:59, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

"...there goes Robert E. Lee..." or "..there goes the Robert E. Lee.."

I just listened five times to this passage from the original Band recording of the song and it seems clear to me that he is saying "...there goes the Robert E. Lee..."

Additionally, I learned this song from the official Band songbook for the album and, though I do not have that in front of me, I certainly learned it as "...the Robert E. Lee..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dogmo1001 (talk • contribs) 23:32, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I noticed the same thing, and it seems the reference is to the "Robert E. Lee" steamboat, which would have been on the Mississippi after 1870. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee_%28steamboat%29 Bbcrane54 (talk) 20:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Not only are the lyrics "the Robert E. Lee", but also the intent around historical timing of the lyric is not wrong. It states "Back with my wife in Tennessee, when one day she called to me". This clearly means after the war and near the Mississippi river where the protagonist of the lyric most certainly could have seen the steamboat the Robert E. Lee. Please correct. Stating that this lyric is historically impossible is wrong. Chamr1 (talk) 09:27, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

I commented out this paragraph. It relies solely on a misstatement by Peter Viney on theband.hiof.no in which Viney just plain gets it wrong. Even a casual listen to the actual lyrics in the first release of the recording reveals that Helm is singing "the Robert E. Lee"; it wasn't added in later performances. I've owned this album continually since it was first released, and I understood from the outset that the lyrics were in reference to a vehicle — a riverboat or a train — and secondarily or symbolically to Lee, himself. rowley (talk) 19:09, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion this line is a reference to the historic steamboat race between the Robert E. Lee and the Natchez in 1870. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_E._Lee_%28steamboat%29#History This would put the timespan of the song from just before 1865 through just after 1870. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LIsbethKellogg (talk • contribs) 18:59, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

"Back" generally means back in time, not forward in time. What I get out of it- before he joined the Conf'd army, Virgil and his wife saw Lee and his troop passed near his farm. Now, he didn't mind the Rebel army chopping his wood (armies need loots of fire wood), and he didn't care if the money (that the Conf army paid him, for the goods that they "foraged", which was the common pratice) was no good. The Rebel army "lived off the land" just like the Northern army, even when it opporated in its own territory. I would "pay" for what it took, with confederate script. I think this was intented. The alternatives, that Virgil was witness to some river boat race, just doesn't fit in the context at all. Steve kap (talk) 16:28, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

"Back" can also mean the return to an earlier or normal condition, as in, "I'm going back to my home town." The protagonist has returned home, and is doing menial, poorly paid work to survive (apropos of the post-bellum economic conditions of the southern US). The subtext, for me, is that powerful will always get by and stick together (many of the southern politicians and generals were rewarded with corporate directorships), while the poor stay poor. fishhead64 (talk) 17:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

The Robert E. Lee was a steamboat built in 1866, so Robertson's reference - if it is to the ship - would be an anachronism. So "the" is either a mistake in that regard or a word that was added for the additional beat (still making no sense). But surely it would have nothing to do with the later race (1870). Allreet (talk) 16:47, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

That comment does not make sense. The lyrics do not state what year it was when Virgil's wife spotted the Robert E. Lee. It was after the war, but did not have to be during the race, as assumed by the previous poster. In addition, it was much much more likely that she would spot a steamboat that frequently went up and down the river (i.e., the Robert E. Lee), then that she would spot General Robert E. Lee himself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.56.173.38 (talk) 16:34, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

By the way, Robertson often took full songwriting credit for a number of the Band's songs which were in fact group efforts. Including TNTDODD, which was a collaborationist songwriting endeavor between Robertson and Helm, who together went to a local library and researched Civil War history when writing the tune. Read Levon's book, "This Wheel's On Fire". Furthermore, Helm is the vocalist and if he sang the words as "THE Robert E. Lee" then those should be considered the real lyrics. 174.56.173.38 (talk) 16:50, 15 January 2024 (UTC)kolef174.56.173.38 (talk) 16:50, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

This article desperately needs someone to add what the meaning of the actual line and title of the song means:

What is "Old Dixie" and what is meant by driving it down? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.237.86.175 (talk) 10:15, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not an expert but I think Dixie refers to the Southern U.S. in general, or more specifically the Confederate States of America in the U.S. Civil War. "Drove Down" simply is a figure of speach for the North conquering it. Wyldkat

Also not an expert but I've never had any doubt that the "Old Dixie" being driven down was the Stars and Bars flag of the Confederacy. Else, why would it be "the night" that it was driven down. If Robertson had been referring to the Reconstruction-era abuse or neglect of the former Confederate states, I doubt seriously he would have localized the time to one specific night. Dogmo1001 (talk) 16:48, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

On the contrary, I think the point of the song is that the narrator is consciously assigning a point in time that he subjectively identifies as the pivotal "night" when a long slow series of events seemed to come together. Obviously, there was no single night when the South was defeated in the war; but this is the night when, for him, it alll came home. Human consciousness is like that, and that's what makes this such a great song. rowley (talk) 19:14, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not an expert either and also not a native English speaker, so I guess somebody would better ask some Southerners for their opinion. I guess there always is an exact direct meaning of words and a symbolic or metaphorical or poetical or suggestive meaning. As for the exact meaning I'm totally with Dogmo1001: "Old Dixie" is a flag of Dixie. Driving the flag down has an exact meaning - that it was driven down, and a metaphorical one - that Dixie gave up fighting, that the war is over, that the whole idea of the Confederation "is in defeat". Why is it "the night" - that's probably because it's Virgil's direct speech - "Back with my wife in Tennessee". So, he's back home, his regiment was dismissed and suddenly one day they see the soldiers in blue uniform, the new authorities are coming and (among the other things) they drive the flag of Dixie on their city hall or city administration down. So, in their town, for the people of their town this really could have happened in just one night.

And also this fixes the emotion on just one moment, - may be it wasn't one moment, it surely was a long serie of lost battles and won battles, marches, losses, left cities etc.etc. and somebody could have said that the war is lost may be few months before, but the author concentrates it in just one night and just one scene, which makes it feel final. Like somebody had died and since that moment all regrets are concentrated not on the process of dying but on the final fact. Rahat-lukum (talk) 19:15, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Still no statement of what the song means. The bell-end that deleted that will probably ignore this. 109.146.101.204 (talk) 19:00, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

Questionable reference

Reference #3 is to another Wikipedia article. Is this a proper reference? Cousin Ricky (talk) 15:28, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Problem with sentence is "song meaning" section

"The song's lyric refers to conditions in the Southern states in the winter of early 1865 ("We were hungry / Just barely alive"); the Confederacy is starving and on the verge of defeat."

The south had been defeated 6 months prior to the winter of 1865. Assuming that this was not just a mistake on The Band's part, this particular line is referring to the the time after the war was over.69.138.223.87 (talk) 16:38, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

It means january 1865 which the last time I looked was a winter month. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.81.88.114 (talk) 20:47, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

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Racism

Why is there no discussion of the fact that this song (which I have to listen to every time I go to the grocery store) is racist, pro-slavery, pro-Confederacy propaganda. How on earth could Joan Baez of all people have sung it?71.81.88.114 (talk) 20:50, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

How it the song racist? Against what race? He only talks about 4 people, His wife, his father, his brother and a yankee. The reference to Robert E Lee is to the steamboat. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.209.25.58 (talk) 04:34, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

It does use "Dixie," the pet name, so to speak, of the Confederacy, so it would not be a stretch to infer it might be "pro-Confederate." And it seems to be lamenting the fall of the Confederacy as the larger message. Additionally, when black people hear people use the word Dixie their guard seems to go up (rightly so, I'd say), because that seems to be a red flag that the person is still fighting that war and may hope there had been a different outcome. However, with all that said, one must remember that artists are often telling the stories of the world from a perspective not necessarily their own. Stephen King is not a kidnapper or murderer or monster, yet writes books about those things. GTGeek88 (talk) 00:08, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Here are some published discussions in notable sources pertaining to the song's alignment with a racist cause that would seem suitable for inclusion in the "Reception" section:

• Ta-Nehisi Coates in The Atlantic characterizes the song as "another story about the blues of Pharaoh": Coates, Ta-Nehisi (17 August 2009). "Virginia". The Atlantic. Retrieved 13 August 2020.
• Early James in an interview in Rolling Stone describes how he has started changing the lyrics of the song to oppose the Confederate cause: Vozick-Levinson, Simon (6 August 2020). "Can 'The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down' Be Redeemed?". Rolling Stone. Retrieved 13 August 2020.
• Jack Hamilton in Slate queries whether the article is a requiem for the "Lost Cause": Hamilton, Jack (13 August 2020). "Is "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" Really a Pro-Confederate Anthem?". Slate. Retrieved 13 August 2020.

Perhaps one or more these could and should be integrated in to the article? --Presearch (talk) 23:28, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

JMHO, but seems fine as long undue weight is respected. Give it a go. Doctorhawkes (talk) 23:36, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Done (or at least begun). And it is relevant that there have also been more articles appearing:

• Jeremy Helligar in Reader's Digest in August 2020, as part of a broader critique of racism in popular songs, wrote that "Despite the song’s progressive associations, it’s dripping with Confederate sympathy": Helligar, Jeremy (26 August 2020). "11 Popular Songs You Didn't Realize Are Actually Racist". Reader's Digest. Retrieved 5 September 2020.
• In an unsigned editorial, The Roanoke Times in August 2020 wrote that in one sense, "songs are like statues — they have whatever meaning we want them to have": Unsigned (20 August 2020). "Editorial: Is 'The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down' cancelled?". The Roanoke Times. Retrieved 5 September 2020.
• In, Medium in August 2020, Noah Berlatsky argued that "when you love a song, you tend to love all of it. When you take pleasure in 'The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down,' you’re identifying with the melancholy and the loss of that Southern white guy, and feeling his sadness because he can't own people any more": Berlatsky, Noah (23 August 2020). "It's Time to Drive Old Dixie Down". Medium. Retrieved 5 September 2020.

Seems like this commentary is continuing to expand. --Presearch (talk) 19:25, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

Those are improvements. Mobi Ditch (talk) 05:57, 27 September 2020 (UTC)

What was the Na-na-na about?

What was the significance of the Na-na-na? Valetude (talk) 23:00, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

I don't know what the significance is, if any, but you can look at if this way (from a quote here on Wikipedia about September by Earth, Wind, and Fire): "Using a chord progression written by Earth, Wind & Fire guitarist Al McKay, vocalist Maurice White and songwriter Allee Willis wrote the song over one month. Willis was initially bothered by the gibberish "ba-dee-ya" lyric White used through the song, and begged him to rewrite it: "I just said, 'What the fuck does 'ba-dee-ya' mean?' And he essentially said, 'Who the fuck cares?' I learned my greatest lesson ever in songwriting from him, which was never let the lyric get in the way of the groove." GTGeek88 (talk) 23:58, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

Sentence starts one way, ends another

In the Other versions section, there is a very long sentence listing other artists who have recorded it. But it ends saying ‘have included it on live albums’. Which of those listed, other than Zac Brown? Clarity please, as it reads badly right now. Boscaswell talk 03:43, 20 February 2022 (UTC)