Talk:Tönet, ihr Pauken! Erschallet, Trompeten! BWV 214

Pauken are no drums.

What can we do? The instruments for which Bach scored are Pauken (timpani), not Trommeln (drums). At least explain in a footnote? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:04, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Not sure that is needed - timpani are a type of drum, and drum is more often used in translations of the title AFAICT. Sample sources: [1][2][3][4][5][6][7]. I'm not seeing any source for this translation? Nikkimaria (talk) 18:22, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

I see the translations, but I also listen to the music: not the right sound. I may have a language problem: in German - as you can see in the linked articles - Pauken are no types of Trommeln. The distinction is made explicitly in the Trommel article: Pauken have a pitch, while Trommeln make just a percussive sound. Very colloquially (says the next para), all percussion instruments are called drums, but can we get a bit more specific? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 18:40, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Interesting - in English it's quite accurate to say that timpani are a type of drum. We should accurately describe the instrumentation in the article body, but of course we should also follow the sources with regards to translation. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:43, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Relation to Christmas Oratorio

The relation to the movements in the Christmas Oratorio were in sound files of that work. I doubt that's too useful. In the process to nominate this article for GA, I replaced the list of movements by a table, and commented out the former, to work on it with more detail. Patience please. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:36, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Tönet, ihr Pauken! Erschallet, Trompeten! BWV 214/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) 14:24, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Comments

• Not sure you should link "drums" to "timpani" in the opening sentence, leave the literal translation as it stands, and perhaps if you have the evidence, discuss why this really means timpani later on.

"Drums" is a very generic term, while the German Pauken is very specifically kettledrums or timpani. The translation is historically wrong for brevity's sake, - see also a question on the talk after I was reverted. --GA

You still should refrain from linking that term. By all means explain timpani in a footnote. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:48, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

footnote done ---GA

• "a cantata by Johann Sebastian Bach, composed in 1733 as a congratulatory cantata" "a cantanta ... composed as a ... cantata... " is odd and repetitive.

Not my sentence, sorry. I'd say it differently, beginning with Bach, but have been reverted so often that I didn't even try here. Compare BWV 125. Will try. --GA

I now made the inro sentence similar to the most recent FA BWV 134a, - hoping that it will stick. ---GA

• " Described as a Dramma per musica,[2" firstly, by whom, and secondly no need for the capital D.

see source: the publisher, - it's like a subtitle, - help? --GA

Well, normally these kinds of claims "described as" need to have who has described them, so we can determine the suitability of the description. And no need for D. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:42, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

"described" is possibly the wrong word, due to my lack of German. this library listing has several alternative names, including Drama per Musica and Dramma per musica, with capital D. "classified" perhaps? better word? ---GA

fixed (hopefully) by Nikkimaria ----GA

• Lead should cover all aspects of the article, including recordings.

No Bach cantata article (including FAs) covers recordings, and the recordings section is the least developed so far ;) --GA

Doesn't matter what others are doing. The lead needs to cover all major aspects, and since the recordings form one of only three or four sections, they should be at least noted. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:40, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

I'll see (but not tonight) if I can expand the recordings section. ---GA

Nikimaria added a line in the lead. I don't thing we can say "recorded by choir", with no mention of conductor and (for one) orchstra, but better than nothing. ----GA

• "of the two choral movements and two others a year later " what "two others"? Is that pertinent to this work?

already changed to arias, yes, four pieces famous as part of the Christmas Oratorio. We wouldn't know this piece if it wasn't the base for the other, and I (and some authors) wonder if Bach had planned all the time to make more of that music for one moment. --GA

• It's categorised as a "secular" cantata, wouldn't this information be essential in the lead?

Yes, see above. See infobox.

I mean the prose aspect of the lead. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:48, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

hopefully repaired by the wording change mentioned above. ---GA

• You have flute in the lead yet flauto traverso in the infobox. Similar comment applies to Scoring and structure section.

Flute is a very general term which includes the flauto traverso. While Bach didn't even know today's metal instrument, it's frequently performed on them. --GA

You need to be consistent, this is an article for all readers, not just Bach and cantata experts. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:43, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

made it another footnote ---GA

I didn't see until now that flauto traverso redirects to the Western concert flute, - eally should have an article. ----GA

• "History and text" section is a little "proseline" so could use some refactoring, e.g. merging to a maximum of two paragraphs, to avoid such a sparse aesthetic.

Will try. --GA

we have now five: court / librettist and text / first performance / reuse / publication ---GA

we have now four, and I can move publication when expanding ----GA

• "composed this cantata" never a big fan of "this", could we not just say "composed BWV 214"?

We should never use a BWV number alone. Just look at the latest change in them: some now have two numbers. I'd have to repeat the title or part of it. --GA

Then repeat the title rather than use "this cantata". The Rambling Man (talk) 15:40, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

done ---GA

• Shouldn't Glückwünschkantate zum Geburtstage der Königin exist as a redirect if it's a valid alternative name for this work, and thus also be in bold?

Not sure. It's rather an alternative to the subtitle than the title, descriptive. Was there before me, don't know where it comes from, and probably is no common search term. - Need to interrupt. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:22, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

After I fixed a spelling error which we may have had for years (it's Glückwunschkantate, and I didn't notice), I found that it's another of the alt titles, like Dramma per musica, per the same source (which is in authority control, under LCCN). ---GA

• " Irene" is piped to a redirect. Also, is her name spelt this way because it's the German variant?

I am back, and will go through the others before returning to the former.

Yes, in German it's Irene, and redirect fixed. --GA

coincidence: Hurricane Irene (2005) is today's TFA ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:18, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

• You say " Fama, a Roman goddess of wisdom.[5]" but our own article declares Fama to be the goddess of "fame and rumor", there seems, at least to me, quite a difference in those two interpretations!

Sorry, that was a remnant from copying, fixed. --GA

• Any reactions to the premiere at the coffee house?

Nothing seen, and not unusual. As far as I know the only reaction in a paper was after his first cantata in Leipzig, ten years earlier. Would be nice to know who the listeners were, but same. --GA

• "became th opening of" missing "e".

fixed --GA

• Just going back to the infobox, you link the flauto, but not other (to me) uncommon instrument like oboe d'amore, violone (does this really mean violin?), continuo...

unlinked all, as in other cantatas, avoid sea of blue --GA

• "a Baroqueinstrumental ensemble" missing a space.

looks fixed already, possibly by Thoughtfortheday, who was one of the main editors before expanding --GA

• Image caption uses "kettledrum" rather than "timpani" which has been used throughout until here.

Will fix next round when writing the footnote. --GA

done ---GA

• "Sound, you drums! Ring forth, trumpets!" this is a different translation to that offered in the opening sentence of the lead.

There are more than one translations possible, why not show, without blowing up the lead? I will have to find who made the first, and credit. - Good catch! --GA

found here and here, but may just use the other both times, - what do you think? ---GA

• What's a ritornello?

Will link. The instrumental section used repeatedly (with changes) for introduction, interludes and postludes. --GA

• " (Shout for joy, exult)." this translation should go with the first time the German is used, in the preceding sentence.

reduced to one mentioning with translation --GA

• "in the minor mode" what does that mean?

linked, but it's an awful article (seen only now, sorry) "minor" as in B minor vs. D major --GA

• I Googled "chordal strings" and got around 400 hits, what does it mean?

I don't know, sorry, that sentence was there before me. My guess: strings playing chords, and "chordal strings" does sound more elegant than that ;) --GA

• "Königin! Mit deinem Namen füll ich diesen Kreis der Welt" - no translation?

added --GA

• "The fanfares of the trumpet is well suited" - should be "are well-suited" but according to whom? This seems a little OR.

fanfares for a queen, don't you think most would agree? - Will think about different wording. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:14, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

• " "Blühet, ihr Linden in Sachsen, wie Zedern" (Sound, you drums! Ring forth, trumpets!)" I don't think that translation is correct.

right, misplacing happened the movement before, sorry --GA

• Is it Bach Digital or Bach Digital?

I am quite helpless when it comes to such things --GA

I'll check the reliability of sources in due course, but there's enough here to be getting on with, so I'll put it on hold for now. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:56, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Responded to second batch, will start from the beginning shortly. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:14, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Now here the second round. ---Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:15, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

... and the third ----Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:10, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Ok, I made a few minor tweaks, and am content with the above and the state of the article, so promoting. Sorry for the delay. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:50, 1 December 2018 (UTC)