Talk:Swarup Sarkar

Concerns

What ref supports this? Ref provided does not. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:37, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

"Personal life Sarkar was born to a middle-class Bengali family in North Kolkata near Beadon Street, on 23 November 1953. Sarkar’s early years were spent in Kolkata, till he graduated from Medical College and later joined the IMS, BHU, Varanasi for his Master Degree. He was married to his MBBS college mate and ideological comrade Dr Mita Mukherjee, with whom he has a son, Soham, who is currently an Intensive Care and Acute Medicine physician in Australia. The couple got mutually separated later. Sarkar is currently married to Jeanette Olsson, a Swedish social worker and public health specialist from Gothenberg, Sweden. She has worked both in Sweden and internationally, in the healthcare system, NGOs and United Nations. Her key areas of expertise are psycho-social work with children and youth, HIV/AIDS and development work."

Puffery

Article contains a fair bit of it unfortunately. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:50, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Still lots to do. Statements like "also known to be one of the key players", "his systematic series of diplomatic advocacies", "has been rewarded with the prestigious", "which paved the beginning", "instantly shifted to the then new and obscure disease of HIV/AID", "and constantly supported the efforts", "has started the use of new revolutionary drug ", gah Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:13, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Text

"In his medical school, Sarkar was active in students’ politics during the turbulent era of Naxalite movement in Bengal, when he set up the Medical College Democratic Students’ Association (MCDSA), which paved the beginning of a third front students’ movement in Bengal, giving rise to the SA-DSA-DSF-IC movement that was instrumental in breaking the direct dominance of mainstream political parties on students' movements. He was the founder president of the Organization as well as the elected President of the Medical College Students’ Union during 1977-78. The MCDSA was known for fostering free democratic thought among the students of Kolkata, organizing them into an anti-establishment politics, equidistant from both the Right wing and the extremist Left wing in the late 1970s."

First ref is from Wikipedia and does not support the content in question. Second ref does not mention the person in question. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:14, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

References

No ref

Early years of career

He began his career as a resident physician of Pulmonology (Chest Medicine) in the Medical College Hospital, Kolkata in 1979, owing to his early interest in tuberculosis (TB). After his training in Public Health and Preventive and Social Medicine in BHU, he worked as a Medical Officer in a remote rural TB Sanatorium in Digri in the district of Midnapore in West Bengal, India.

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:14, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

References

Copy and pasted content

• "elimination of mother-to-child transmission of HIV in Thailand; elimination of malaria in Maldives and Sri Lanka, elimination of lymphatic filariasis in Maldives, Sri Lanka and Thailand; elimination of yaws in India" verbatim from [1]

• "Seroprevalence among intravenous drug users increased from 0 per cent in September 1989 to 50 per cent within six months. With a minimum injecting population of 15,000 and seropositivity of over 50 per cent, the infection quickly spread to the population at large. One per cent of antenatal mothers"[2]

• "HIV prevalence rate among the general population in India is presumably less than 0.1 per cent, and that of the high-risk group of sex workers varies between 1 and 30 per cent in different cities"[3]

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:30, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

User:Doc James these are quotations as interviewed by the UCLA team and referred within Quotes. Where can I correct it? It is not in the draft section eitherDrsayantanb (talk) 22:15, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

No they are not within quotes. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:28, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Ref

How does this ref support?

"In 1986, he joined the Indian Council of Medical Research (ICMR) in its Kolkata office of WHO Referral Center for Training and Research for South East Asia, annexed to the National Institute of Cholera and Enteric Diseases (NICED). "

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:18, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Text

"While working with The UNAIDS, Sarkar also advocated the funding avenues for malaria control for Asia, and ensured more than 75% of external international financing for malaria control from The Global Fund with $5.3 billion committed for malaria programs in 83 countries, including $0.95 billion in Asia covering 32 countries in East Asia and the Pacific and South and West Asia, a large part of which was through his advocacy."

References

Were does it say that it was "HE" who made 75% of funding? Gah Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:33, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Maybe return to draft

Well I thank User:Drsayantanb for there efforts. Maybe we should return this to draft space for more work. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:39, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Were did this come from?

File:Employment History- Swarup Sarkar.jpg

Employment History- Swarup Sarkar

Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:51, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

How do you know this stuff?

User:Drsayantanb were does it state his secondary school?

What source are you using for his number of kids?

What source are you using for his birthdate?

Drsayantanb you have meet this person when? Can you describe your connection with them in more details? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:03, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

From this file, which I have just tagged for No permission, I have also the same question. Might be WP:COISELF. -- Bodhisattwa (talk) 17:48, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Bodhisattwa, yep. ∯WBG^converse 17:53, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Bodhisattwa, also how did Sumita and then you, chance upon the article? ∯WBG^converse 17:57, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

@Winged Blades of Godric:, few days ago, I tagged this file uploaded by the same user for deletion and he left me this message in my talk page. And while watching uploads of this new user in Commons, I found this file which led me to this talk page. -- Bodhisattwa (talk) 18:08, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Secondary School- deleted, DoB deleted, No. of Children deleted. User:Doc James I met this person on 24 March 2018 at the All India Institute of Medical Sciences, New Delhi on the occasion of national TB Day (if this information was necessary for this forum). He was a Guest speaker on behalf of World Health Organization and I was a resident, anchoring and arranging for logistics for the said program on behalf of the host institute. Kindly find the flyers of the program attached below. I declare that this person is not myself, my family, my friend, my client, or my employer. I also declare that I have no religious, political, academic, legal, or financial relationship with this person. User:Doc James I came across his employment experience as a document needed to be read out in introduction, from which details of education and employment were available and announced. Which have been deleted from the article in absence of online resources. This person is an alumnus of my same Medical Grad School, 28 years prior to my graduation, which I don't consider as WP:COISELF.

I am happy to continue this discussion in specific objective points, in case there is still any issue that needs clarification in the current status of the article Draft:Swarup Sarkar.

I request Bodhisattwa to refrain from this discussion, as we personally know each other for last 14 years and share different opinions on multiple issues beyond Wikipedia, which I apprehend might adversely bias free, fare and objective discussion. I personally appreciate your role as an Wikipedian, but I request you to refrain here for possible WP:COISELF.

In the meantime, I request you to go through these two living person pages that I came across recently and opine Chandrakant Lahariya and Tom Rhodes.Drsayantanb (talk) 21:39, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

@Winged Blades of Godric: Thanks for the edits and suggestions. I further deleted some contents. By the way, found interesting comments on your Super Admin Attitude. All the best!!Drsayantanb (talk) 22:41, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

So the first time you ever meet this person was "March 2018" User:Drsayantanb? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:42, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

First time interacted and knew detail of his work on "March 2018". First saw him during a meeting following launch of the INDEX TB Guidelines in October 2016, where he was a guest. Didn't know much except him being a WHO executive and no significant interaction then. In 2016, I was a new resident at All India Institute of Medical Sciences and was assigned the job of helping to host the said event, basic event management, photography, etc. Drsayantanb (talk) 05:04, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Drsayantanb, I believe that your descriptions about the aspects of probable COI are fairly accurate, to the best of the information, available to me.

Verifiabilty from reliable sources is a core policy of Wikipedia and it's religiously followed. I, as a native Bengali speaker, understand the issues of underrepresented sourcing of scientific figures (and their achievements) across RS as a result of systemic bias. But, that does not entitle us to use poor-quality sources and claim extraordinary stuff, that's absent from even those sources. See WP:INTEGRITY.

Other crap exists and the state of other articles (barring good articles and featured articles) have no bearing on this article. ∯WBG^converse 05:10, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

FWIW, I am inclined to reject that Swarup's contributions were so pioneer-like and monumental, as your writing seems to project. I have scanned across numerous high-quality scholarly references in the area of his works and none donates more than a name-drop along with numerous others. ∯WBG^converse 05:15, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

File:World TB Day Symposium Public Flyer AIIMS, New Delhi, 2018.jpg

Public Flyer of AIIMS TB Day Agenda 2018

File:Screen Capture of World TB Day Symposium Public Notice of Program Schedule 2018 AIIMS New Delhi.jpg

World TB Day Symposium Academic Program Public Notice

@Drsayantanb:, WP:COISELF does not apply to me, as I dont know Swarup Sarkar at all. I know you in person, but that does not mean I cannot comment on an article which you have created. Secondly, my actions are totally unbiased and according to the policy. You are uploading images in Commons created by others and there is no proof that the file creators have given you permission to release the license and upload that. I have given you a message here, which you are not taking into consideration and uploading such files repeatedly, for which I am tagging them for no-permission. That is completely with Commons policy and it has nothing to do with our personal connection. -- Bodhisattwa (talk) 06:24, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Anyway, if you apprehend, my comments in the talk page of this article is biased and unfair, then only to pacify your concern, I will not engage anyway regarding the article of Swarup Sarkar. -- Bodhisattwa (talk) 06:38, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Dear @Winged Blades of Godric: I concur to your statement "understand the issues of underrepresented sourcing of scientific figures (and their achievements)". But, I don't agree to the fact that my current version of the article Draft:Swarup Sarkar projects his contributions "pioneer-like" and "monumental". I am also curious to know how you can come to a conclusion to "reject" his contributions. At the best, it may be concluded that there is not enough online references to substantiate the first draft of the article, which User:Doc James referred to. I agreed to the fact immediately, and have constantly engaged in objective, point by point dialogue with User:Doc James regarding this and his questions. We even discussed the possible reasons that might have made the article look promotional [here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Drsayantanb&diff=893342151&oldid=893340381] and [here [[4]]. Many of the statements that you User:Winged Blades of Godric have deleted as "synthesis" and "SPAM//SPAM//SPAM" are actually true facts, including the first recognition of injection drug use related spread of HIV in India.

Erstwhile the emphasis on HIV spread was typically on heterosexual route of spread. Entry of HIV in Indian subcontinent through Injection Drug Use, has multiple other dimensions of Hepatitis B and Hepatitis C coinfection, recombination of virus through mixture of multiple strains, etc., the researches on which ensued thereafter, despite of a strong denial from the Indian government in late 1980s and 1990s, even to admit either HIV or drug use as a problem. These works are indeed pioneering, which sadly lacks proper online third party reports or resources, except the few peer reviewed publications in quality scientific journals, which you have deleted all, and I have not undone, as I myself feel that I was yet to learn and adhere to WP policies regarding citations. Sadly, as you have mentioned above, there is no reliable documentation over the chains of facts that led to the seminal works that later culminated to the National Free antiretroviral Treatment programme through establishment of National AIDS Control Organisation in India.

As you are from India, I insist you to ponder over the time of late 1980's and 1990's, during peak time of insurgency and terrorism in the North Eastern states of India [[5]], when these research works has taken place.

There is sadly again no third party online references to the fascinating accounts of what I gathered directly from some of his old coworkers, particularly on the "snow-balling" approach of reaching one group of injection drug users to another group, extremely risky and investigative nature of their work, following the cue and strings of drug peddlers in those remote hilly areas of Manipur and Mizoram, during the periods of strong insurgency with minimal or no police and security presence. Sadly, none of these accounts goes into the article, as I have no online references.

I mention here, just to emphasize my intent of creating the page of this guy, and to try to substantiate that I am not doing it for any commercial reason. And you have also rightfully deleted all the related or tangential references that I could draw, as per wikipedia policy, which I agree to, and express my previous ignorance, being a new user. Have not undone any of your edits. The next set of Sarkar's activities were also amazing, to which there is again limited direct online references. Which led to the withdrawal of the Indian patent of Pfizer, that was limiting the generic drug companies to manufacture antiretrovirals, and curbing monopoly of a drug market, when ART used to cost 10 times lesser if the patent could have been withdrawn. Later, the availability of free ART through government programme for all AIDS patients were also a result of diplomatic advocacies, simultaneously with 1-Indian government and politicians (many of whom were too corrupt to understand) to frame a law to reject Pfizer's patent claims against the rights of dying AIDS patients, 2-The Global fund which funded 122 million USD to pump in the resources and 3-generic drug companies viz. Cipla. Later he became the Asia Pacific Regional Director of The Global Fund. These are complex interlinked diplomatic issues and lacks online references and is rightfully deleted from the latest version of the draft Draft:Swarup Sarkar.

I admit that my "personal appreciation" of Sarkar's work might have led to the promotional nature of the initial drafts {in regards to 1- research with injection drug users in a remote and insurgent area during 1986-91, 2-Respectfully enabling, empowering and organizing commercial sex workers in Bangladesh and India at a time when it was an absolute stigma, 3-His Strong criticisms to the hypocritical, judgmental, discriminating attitude of the then South East Asian Government and society at large towards the marginalised sections of drug users and sex workers (both population in those times in South Asia, didn't usually chose to either as a choice, rather were victims of multiple conspiracies and designs created by nexus of dangerous and powerful people) gays, queers, transgenders and hijras, 4-his role in making free drugs for HIV available to Indian patients (sadly, there is a dearth of online references to substantiate these, hence, all excluded in the WP article)}.

@Winged Blades of Godric: I appreciate your critical nature in pointing out the flaws in citations and references and that you acknowledge that for substantiating Indian biographies, there is tremendous lack of online resources. An equivalent example is the article on Shankar_Guha_Niyogi. Guha Niyogi's significant contribution to the tribals and labourers of the present Chattisgarh state is a well known fact and written in many Bengali books and newspapers which may be well known to a native Bengali speaking Indian. But if one sees the wikipedia page, it easily qualifies for deletion for unsubstantiated claims and absence of citations. It is just an example to suggest you to restrict your comments on Objective findings, rather than superlative adjectives with strong negative connotations. I hope, you are a much more experienced wikipedian than me, and would understand my concern. Similar concerns were also raised by other users on your previous activities, which i referred to earlier here.

To sum up, I acknowledge the promotional nature of initial drafts, I declare that it was through appreciation and not through any COI or commercial interest, and I think that the latest Draft is largely conforming to the WP policies. I would request a mature and objective review of the present Draft:Swarup Sarkar by @Doc James: or @Kudpung: or @DGG:, if they can kindly spare their time. RegardsDrsayantanb (talk) 07:58, 24 April 2019 (UTC) Drsayantanb (talk) 16:36, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Offline references are allowed and we are not biased against them. If you have offline references, that supports your assertions of his being a pioneer in his area, please provide them at all costs.

These works are indeed pioneering, which sadly lacks proper online third party reports or resources, except the few peer reviewed publications in quality scientific journals..... -- Nope. All those works are accessible by me and I have read them in entirety. Written by Sarkar along with others, they do not make any claim of his being a pioneer. Even, if it did, we would have rejected, because we cannot take claims of his extra-ordinarity from himself. Also, we don't write paragraphs paraphrasing abstracts of one's researches, just because they were published in a peer-reviewed journal.

I advice you to ask those, who told you all these interesting details, to write it over some peer-reviewed publication, from where we can source these. I have nothing more to add; as to your interesting narrative of his contributions.

You are warned to refrain from linking to off-wiki sites; which contain a mixture of good, bad, worse and plain harassment. You can be blocked if you persist.

Thanks for leading me to Niyogi's article. I will develop that, once BGR-34, Sentinelese and Viral hemorrhagic fever attains GA and I get done with K S Singh. I will move this draft, back to mainspace in a few days or so, once I take a more thorough review. There's no doubt that Sarkar passes WP:N. ∯WBG^converse 09:16, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks User:Winged Blades of Godric for your comments. A small suggestion- In case you put your hands on Shankar Guha Niyogi article, kindly put it in a constructive way, to improve the article, rather than Massively culling all that the novice editors might have put in an unreferenced manner. I am saying so, because I have a clear impression that Shankar Guha Niyogi was a peoples' man, who changed the lives of substantial number of tribal, mine labourer people. Probably you might get some good references here-

I am also eager to know more about- You are warned to refrain from linking to off-wiki sites....You can be blocked if you persist. - which references / links are you exactly referring to. This statement is quite a big threat for a new Wikipedian like me, and I would definitely like to know in details. I shall be away from the discussion for a few days owing to my upcoming final DM exit examination. Will continue further then. Regards.Drsayantanb (talk) 16:17, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Dear User: Doc James Can you kindly explain Why the Draft:Swarup Sarkar still contains the Banner: This article contains content that is written like an advertisement. Please help improve it by removing promotional content and inappropriate external links, and by adding encyclopedic content written from a neutral point of view. What all sections in the current draft do you feel is promotional content and advertorial? Thanks.Drsayantanb (talk) 17:52, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

WBG needs to finish there review.

Agree with the concerns to one of the sites you linked too. Concentrate on the content only. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 04:09, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Anybody willing to move this draft in its re-edited present form to the Wikipedia Main Page? @User: Doc James / @User:Winged Blades of Godric ? Drsayantanb (talk) 06:23, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Will leave it to WBG to decide. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:20, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Award ??

I have searched the WHO site, and I can find no mention of any award called "Award for Outstanding Health Achievements"., . Nor can I find on their site mention of any award from WHO given to Sarkar in 2018. I see the Times of India article, but I can not identify what exactly theyare referring to. I suppose it is some specific award, but I cannnot determine what the name of the award is. I imagine the TofI is in fact referring to something, but I cannot find what, from the vague language they use. All other sources are a copy of that newspaper article or of Wikipedia , or a some similar PR. I think this will need to be removed unless exact information is forthcoming. DGG ( talk ) 05:26, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

User:Drsayantanb what is the explanation for this do you think? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:21, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

Times of India is a reputed Indian daily newspaper. But until further clarified, the awards reference is deleted. Do you think that the Advertisement banner is still relevant? Drsayantanb (talk) 19:55, 13 June 2019 (UTC)