Talk:Street running train

Untitled

The April 2008 issue of Trains would be a good source to expand this article. --NE2 02:14, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Weymouth Harbour Tramway

I know it's closed, but does the Weymouth Harbour Tramway count? It did used to have through main line trains from Waterloo after all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.129.89 (talk) 22:28, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

It certainly counted, because it was a train on the street, but unfornately this line has now disappeared. Straatspoor (talk) 11:23, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Request for comments

Tim PF (talk · contribs) has insisted that pictures and Google Street View links aren't reliable sources. 218.250.143.16 (talk) 17:47, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

This is actually a question for the Wikipedia:Reliable sources noticeboard, but in my uneducated opinion it depends on what they are being used to verify. I think the picture that shows a train running through a street, if there is confidence that it hasn't been modified, can be used to verify the fact that street running exists on that street as of the date of that photograph. Pictures published in reliable sources would be better than random photos on the internet. Thryduulf (talk) 12:09, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

There are two pictures in this Wikipedia article to illustrate street running of the MTR Light Rail at some of its sections. And there is also a Google Street View link. Tim PF kept removing all these from the article then put the {{cn}} tag back. Would this be a case for RfC on this user, or for the vandalism board, rather than RSN? 218.250.143.16 (talk) 23:57, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

This disruptive sock should be blocked. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Personally, I'd call Light Rail (MTR) closer tram rather than a mainline using street-running. —Sladen (talk) 08:04, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Most of its tracks are located off-street, alongside streets and roads, or elevated, i.e., with its own right of way. 218.250.143.16 (talk) 17:05, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

And the problem with this is that most, if not all of the photographs and GSV that 218.250.143.16 (talk · contribs) has produced to date appear to show a segregated railway system, rather than actual street running. I note that File:LRT Tai Hing South Stop.jpg has now been added, but with an absence of any vehicles, it is difficult to tell if it is fair evidence of actual street running. Tim PF (talk) 23:24, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

This is nonsense. Go and see [1] 218.250.143.16 (talk) 23:53, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

I have added {{Citation needed}} with reason=GSV is not a reliable source on its own see WP:SOURCE, and a {{tl|clarify with reason=is this a tram with some segregated running or a train with some street running?. In any case, I've removed all the irrelevant photographs and links which show segregated running. Tim PF (talk) 23:48, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Trams

Is there any reason why tram systems or light rail, such as the Manchester Metrolink (File:Metrolink Tram.jpg) cannot be added to this article? Tim PF (talk) 13:48, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Why would we want to duplicate List of tramways? Thryduulf (talk) 09:44, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that link, but I think it's the List of tram and light-rail transit systems, which includes both Manchester Metrolink and Light Rail (MTR). Yes, I'd agree that we don't need to duplicate that, but the problem is that Light rail includes systems which include street running, and those that don't. Regulations also vary from country to country, but it seems to me that these operate through the streets much more like trams than the former Weymouth Harbour Tramway or the Porthmadog cross town link where the trains are preceded by someone on foot with a flag.

The problem is that this article's definition includes tramway track and trains, but light rail also includes trains; the definition also doesn't specifically exclude trams. Were it changed to specifically exclude both regular trams and any light rail systems that operate as if they are trams when running on streets, then we'd have a shorter list, but that might also catch some other systems like the US interurbans (eg South Shore Line (NICTD)), although that might be a good thing. Tim PF (talk) 00:26, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

The definition was indeed confusing and contradictory, which is why I eventually changed it. Straatspoor (talk) 11:31, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Austin, Texas

Regarding Austin, see also Talk:Austin and Northwestern Railroad#Untitled. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 15:11, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

Historical Street Running

Should we list sites where street running no longer happens? I don't mean the Weymouth Tramway, which only closed recently, and as far as I know the rails are still in place, so it may re-open if some preservationists come forwards. I mean the various places where it was common until, in the UK, the 1960s. I can think of the Connell Bridge, which still stands and carries only road traffic, one way with traffic lights, as maybe the most spectacular example, but there were very many other places where street running was common. I can think of Dumfries Gas Works, where the track ran along part of Brooms Road. Chains were laid in the grooves (railway flanges are wider than tram flanges so the gap is wider and more dangerous), and these were laboriously shifted before the passage of each train and replaced afterwards. There of course was also street running at most docks and harbours, but that might want to be a separate subject. I think that street running was common in some coal mining areas too.

Should we have an additional article for this, or should it go here? Then we need history from other countries too. What do people think?

Tiger99 (talk) 22:46, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

I would say, no, we should not list every former example of street running, but only significant ones and should add a separate section for related practices. I think that would best be handled, as you have above, by indicating types of places it was common. The examples you give of docks and harbors, and other industrialized areas like shipyards, factory complexes, warehouse districts and so on are places where a locomotive and some cars are a normal sight; the essence of "street running" is that it is a train running where we do not normally expect a train. I'd think Connell Bridge is a good example of something that should be listed; the rails are a big part of its history and its current layout. To give an example, in Boston, the Atlantic Avenue line is, or became, an example of "street running", but the seemingly identical pattern on the South Boston Army base, or on Mystic Pier, is not. Anmccaff (talk) 05:32, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

You may already be aware, but the branch in Weymouth UK is disappeared. Straatspoor (talk) 11:27, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Confused article definition

This article seems rather confused as to what it is about. Is it about tramways that run in the street, or conventional train lines which have street sections? G-13114 (talk) 10:42, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Conventional train lines that run on the street. We already have an article for trams and light rail. Cganuelas (talk) 20:48, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

The definition was indeed confusing and contradictory, which is why I eventually changed it. Straatspoor (talk) 11:33, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

{{road type}}

The template name is unfortunate, but the topic is roads and road space allocation. (TW)) (undo it's more than unfortunate, it's inaccurate, at least at the edges, where rubber tires moved where steel ones had started. Some "street running" on bridges is a good example of this. Anmccaff (talk) 17:26, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

industrial spurs?

@Lfstevens: Since you removed the explicit exclusion of industrial spurs in the germany section, I’m wondering whether those are supposed to be included here. The current wording suggests so, as they are railways. --nenntmichruhigip (Diskussion) 21:09, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing the changes. I omitted spurs as they were described as not being street railways. ("Aside from these and industrial spurs, Germany has some street railways"). If you think that point belongs, feel free to make the change. Lfstevens (talk) 21:34, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

I think understand now: The sentence made it sound like spurs weren’t railways. Do you have a better suggestion for wording it? I’m not a native speaker of english, so it’s a bit hard for me. It’s supposed to say that there are also many industrial spurs which are street-running and (always) railways, but not listed here. I’d suggest adding this as exclusion for all of the example list, but as I undestand it there isn’t such a clear separation between spurs and regular railways in other countries, so I don’t think this would work well as global criterium for the list. --nenntmichruhigip (Diskussion) 07:18, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Toronto Lake Shore example

I'm not sure that the Lake Shore Blvd example of street running in Toronto really fits the definition given in the article itself. While the spur line does cross vehicular lanes of Lake Shore in a few places, the rails are not embedded in the road surface for the majority of their length. Rather, they are in a centre median protected by curbs, on traditional crushed rock ballast.

While I agree that it's a unique setup, it doesn't really match the other examples or definitions of street running. It seems more like a series of proximate grade crossings (albeit at unique angles). I don't want to remove this reference unilaterally, as I have no access to the cited source. I will be watching this page for feedback. (There is plenty of Google Street View footage of the area.) ~SpK 03:11, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

Agree this doesn't belong. The track crosses one lane, runs down the median for a block (not sharing the roadway), and then crosses the other lane. Should be removed. MB 14:25, 12 December 2018 (UTC)

/* California */ murray st in santa cruz is adjacent to the public street but is not on the public street; thus not an example of street running.

i've removed murray st. in santa cruz from the examples of street running. that section of track is used de facto as a sidewalk, but the track runs on a private right-of-way adjacent to the street; its not an example of street running as exists elsewhere on beach & chestnut streets. I'm not sure how to even begin to find a source for this; i can attest by personal experience that this is the case, and it's also clear from examination of a satellite image or street photography https://goo.gl/maps/7EFonMHTvZVYAFoA6 mcpusc (talk) 12:45, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Mega-tip for the street running train fan : The largest and most current free overview is on : coasttram.info/street running trains! (Also about the coastal tram in Belgium)(fan-pages) More than 600 cities & towns/1200 locations !! In the USA alone! With a lot of information about the present and the past. Plus in more than 70 other countries ! Duplication allowed . Have fun with it . Straatspoor (talk) 05:55, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Wuppertal

Is this also street running? ;-)

Wuppertaler Schwebebahn auf der "Landstrecke"

H.M. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haraldmmueller (talk • contribs) 16:53, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

No, because it is not ON the street. Straatspoor (talk) 10:45, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Wycheproof, Victoria, Australia

Would the rail line which runs down the middle of Broadway in Wycheproof, Victoria, Australia be street running? It's technically in a median, but there is no grade separation between the road and tracks. See this YouTube video [2]. Fork99 (talk) 23:57, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

A part is on free track, and 1 short and 1 long part are on the road. So as far as i'm concerned it's real street running. Straatspoor (talk) 08:20, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Title .

Why is the article title not " Street Running Trains " ?? That would be better. Straatspoor (talk) 09:10, 28 November 2020 (UTC)

Because no one responded to this,I eventually changed the title by myself. No more misunderstandings. Straatspoor (talk) 13:26, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Formatting

Would it be a good idea to adjust the formatting on this page to align more closely with that of its sister pages, List of Road-Rail Bridges and List of Road-Rail Tunnels? Those pages have the country names as the primary headers as opposed to having them as the secondary headers. ElToAn123 (talk) 20:50, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

Most of this article does not meet Wikipedia standards

Most of this information appears to violate WP:NOR. There are very few sources, and many sections have none at all. In my opinion, these sections should be deleted entirely unless sources can be found. ---EngineeringEditor (talk) 23:17, 16 March 2022 (UTC)

It is almost entirely original research. I think most of the article should be deleted and replaced by some examples of street running trains. Ungulates (talk) 04:18, 27 March 2022 (UTC)

I have taken the liberty of stubifying the article. It was beyond saving. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 03:23, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Victoria, B C

Street running train#Canada There was at one time street running from the Johnson Street Bridge onto Store Street. I recall seeing this back in 1954 and some time after. Peter Horn User talk 21:13, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

The street running included Pandora Avenue just off the bridge before turning onto Store Street. Peter Horn User talk 20:40, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

The E & N ran along part of Store Street. Peter Horn User talk 21:07, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

E & N yard at Store Street. Peter Horn User talk 22:46, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

Or was it Johnson Street instead of Pandora Avednue? Victoria B C Peter Horn User talk 00:51, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Both. Peter Horn User talk 00:53, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Reliable sources

@Straatspoor: many of the sources you are using are unreliable. Youtube, flickr, wordpress blogs, railpictures.net, all are user-generated content and unacceptable for use as references. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 16:50, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

I was already afraid of that. That's why i find Wikipedia so frustrating and stubborn. I do my best to find sources, but even dozens of photos or videos that prove the truth are seen as phony, fake, hoax, scam, etc. The truth is symply denied ! (and I'm not a conspiracy theorist) I find that absurdly bureaucratic, and i'm okay with that. Also, not everything that is forbidden is listed. Sometimes I didn't even get a automatic warning. ### Given your username I think that you are much better at finding good resources than I am. I only have good intentions, but so many rules drive contributors away. And that's why they make their own blogs, etc. I think the primal principles of Wikipedia's are (partly?) no longer up to date. Straatspoor (talk) 07:34, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia has always relied on reliable, independent, secondary sources as the preferred sourcing for the encyclopedia. This isn't some impossible demand. Sources like Trains Magazine, for instance, are reliable, independent, secondary sources which are good as references. Yes, this does mean that researching can take time, but that's to be expected when you're writing an encyclopedia. When I write an article, I often spend more time researching than actually typing up the article. You can't just grab photos from online and use them as references. We don't do original research, we rely on other sources to do that first, and then cite their findings. Interpreting photos is original research. Though the exception is if a photo is published in a secondary source and described or given a caption, because in that case someone else has done the interpretation.

We are fortunate that there are numerous publications dedicated to trains, which gives us a wealth of reliable, independent, secondary sources to use. Plenty of them discuss street running trains. You should be citing them, not blogs or railfan videos. And if there are no reliable sources supporting a claim, it should not be in Wikipedia. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 14:36, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately that is not my experience; I've searched many times. I found a lot about "normal" trains, but little about street running trains. And especialy no city list or something. Also Trainsmagazine, or I can't consult it. IF locations are mentioned, there are far too few than the reality. Or states only. Or is not current. At least one site claims it is rare in the USA! The truth is that the USA was ànd ìs the absolute no. 1 in the world in this field ! Probably more actual locations than in all countries combined! Most locations are visible on Streetview, and the past is there also (limited) visible. But that will not be allowed because it is not secondary. As long as those rigid rules apply, articles like this are impossible or impossible to complete. I challenge anyone to prove the opposite! Straatspoor (talk) 16:41, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a directory of every instance of street-running trains in the world. That is not what this article should be about. It should only include notable instances of street-running trains. This is not a flaw, this is by design. This article has long been in violation of NOTDIRECTORY, and I have now brought it into compliance. If you want to make a giant list of every single instance of street-running trains, you can start your own blog and do so to your heart's content. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 16:50, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't intend to make a really complete list, but even mentioning some known locations is not possible because there is no "good" source. In addition, it article says "this list is incomplete". I find that contradictory. ### The largest (and only) global overview has been standing for years on kusttram-street-running-train.jouwweb.nl. ### Is Streetview allowed or not as source ?? ### The definition of this article also has no source. The only official source I can find is source 26 in this article, even if it means little, very concise. Straatspoor (talk) 20:06, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Again, if there is no reliable source to back a claim (and google streetview should not be treated as a reliable source), it should not be in Wikipedia. Please review policy on reliable sources. But as I said, there are reliable sources, such as [3], that cover street running. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 20:52, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

Is trains web. org. good enough as source??)(is not on "the black list") Straatspoor (talk) 13:04, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Definition Street Running Train.

Besides the resource issues, I wonder if there is an official definition. So here's a call to find it, and I'm going to look for it myself. Since it started in America on/in dirt roads I think that also belongs to the definition, so not just rails/tracks in asphalt or paving stones. So even if the track protrudes above the road, but in all cases without separation/edge/shielding. This still occurs. Straatspoor (talk) 08:15, 8 February 2023 (UTC) .

I haven't found a government or another official definition. And the only "official" railway-company definition is given by Amtrak, but it's so short it's not really a definition.(https://history.amtrak.com/archives/street-running-in-oakland-calif.-2015.</ref> Straatspoor (talk) 09:15, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Did you not read the source I linked in my last message, which includes a definition of the term? Trainsandotherthings (talk) 02:22, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

I want to read it, but it's forbidden for me. I am often "discriminated" against. & & & Is Trains web. org. A good source?? Straatspoor (talk) 06:34, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Trainweb.org is not a reliable source, it's a bunch of railfan blogs. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 21:40, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Many "public" sites, also news sites, in America are forbidden for me, and not only for me. That makes it much difficult. Straatspoor (talk) 06:55, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Later I decided to just search with that title; and sure enough, it's on Pinterest. It also says "Forbidden for you❗️😡", but anyone can read it anyway. Because it is a "copy". So I read it, but that's basicly the same short definition as Amtrak's. Straatspoor (talk) 08:22, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

The mayor says there are 2 towns with train through Mainstreet, but doesn't name it. But California is mentioned, so I think Oakland is meant. But that is not through Mainstreet. This article again gives the impression that street running is very rare, but the truth is it is usally not through Mainstreet but through another street. But there is certainly one more: Mainstreet in West Brownsville, PA. Straatspoor (talk) 08:38, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

I have not found any legal/official defenition, so there are no restrictions in my opinion. More than 20 versions are possible. And that's just about trains. Straatspoor (talk) 07:02, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Argentina

It appears that all of the body text for the Argentina section has been deleted, but the image for the Salto Grande Bridge is still there. Metra Fan (talk) 18:00, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

It was removed because it was entirely unsourced and/or original research. Either the photo can go, or someone can add sourced information. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 16:56, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Linz, Austria

In Linz, Austria, there was the "Linzer Eisenbahnbrücke (1900)" - this bridge was built in 1900, being designed for alternating use by cars or trains. Despite being a historical landmark, the old bridge was closed in 2016, and demolished rightaway. The new bridge has seperate lines for cars and trains. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linzer_Eisenbahnbr%C3%BCcke_(1900) 2003:C4:712:AB01:2C3E:F2F4:18A5:8BB9 (talk) 18:48, 25 August 2023 (UTC)