Talk:Simon Ekpa

Article wordings changing request

With Simon Ekpa violence and unrest in Southeast Nigeria with his new rebel thugd, I think there should be a more suitable ways to describe him. Instead of.....

Simon Ekpa (born 21 March 1985) is a Finnish local politician, lawyer and former Nigerian athlete. He is one of the current leaders of the Biafra independence movement and the designated Prime Minister of the Biafra Republic Government in Exile (BRGIE) organization.

It should be.....

Simon Ekpa (born 21 March 1985) is a Finnish local politician, lawyer and former Nigerian athlete.He is one of the current leaders of the Biafra independence movement, the founder of the militia rebel group Biafra Liberation Army (BLA) and the designated Prime Minister of the self proclaimed Biafra Republic Government in Exile (BRGIE) organization. Johnefx (talk) 06:48, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Since the BLA is a very new thing, and the sources, such as they are and afaik, basically boils down to "Ekpa says this and Ekpa says that" atm, I don't think it's necessary to mention them in the WP:LEAD at this point. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:20, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

They are actually not new thing, prior to their official announcement by Simon Ekpa they have a different identity called unknown gunmen. I live in the region and I can attest to that, they have been involved in massive killings of innocent civilian including the uniform men in their thoughts of enforcing sit at home in the region. Though their are not enough evidence for the media against them as they always carried their whole operations Anonymously, but civilians like me should be enough to testify against them. Indeed it just look like they were born on October 2023 when Simon Ekpa officially announced them but in reality they have long established as unknown gunmen UGM. Hence I think a terror group like this should be properly explained on all related pages. Simon Ekpa have been properly portrayed on Wikipedia while he is actually a terror leader. So for me I think his page should be totally reformed including all his evil deeds, and yes they are many source out their we might find some evidence. Thanks. Johnefx (talk) 09:21, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

WP:ISAWIT doesn't help on this website, unfortunately. You have to seek out other parts of the internet to tell this story. Here WP:BLP is very important. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:35, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

this source are all point towards Simon ekpa as a master of terror.

, and there are many more evidence to prove that. Johnefx (talk) 09:50, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Now that's a start. I'll take a look at these, but maybe not today. Perhaps other editors will too. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:01, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Alright thanks, I will try to provide more source in the future. Johnefx (talk) 10:03, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm still looking, but I've used some of these sources. Have a read through the article and see what you think. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

User:Johnefx was blocked for sockpuppetry. Wikishovel (talk) 10:35, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Every new editor on this and related articles appears to be a sock, but fwiw, I think both pro and con Ekpa people are socking. Sources are sources. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:39, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

There's no distinction made by admins between pro and con socks: WP:BMB. Wikishovel (talk) 10:45, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

And a good thing too. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:47, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

@Wikishovel, feel free to add something to this article about what Biafra is. I think you did that in the BLA article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:42, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Done, please feel free to edit as you see fir fur. Wikishovel (talk) 19:54, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Nah, on my street it's mostly maple. ;-) Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:07, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Corrected! Wikishovel (talk) 20:39, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I have some potential replies but they'll stay in my head. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:42, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

References

10 March 2024

I did a minor edit on the Wikipedia:Lead of the article, enhancing the readability and clarity of the Lead, removed potential tautology and added updated reference. Though this is a minor edit but I thought it would make more sense to put it on the Talk Page. Editors can review the RS and add more clarity and readability.

Infobox: Added title of "Prime Minister", other names parameter (Ifeanyi).Fugabus (talk) 18:59, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

I reverted you:[1]. And the Infobox should not state Prime Minister. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:41, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Fugabus, that was not a minor edit, and it's unclear where a potential tautology was removed. Wikishovel (talk) 09:49, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Hey @Wikishovel The potential tautology in the provided in the lead is the phrase "Biafra Republic Government in Exile (BRGIE) organization." The term "government in exile" typically implies an organization or group working for the interests of a government that is not currently in power or is in exile. Therefore, including both "government in exile" and "organization" may be redundant. You may see my edits to rephrase them for clarity again. Unnecessary sentences should be removed. It's my own opinion though.Fugabus (talk) 14:08, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Actually, for clarity, we can just remove PM from lead and just leave "leader". It's not that important what an org calls the leader, PM just muddles things. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:00, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång, you reverted the whole edits. In your own opinion, PM may be to to muddle things but generally it clarified things. See Polish government in exile and their first PM General Władysław Sikorski I don't just edit, I make research prior to editing on Wikipedia. I didn't add only PM on the infobox, I added the Notes, other names and modified the pronunciation name. I saw you literally reverted everything from the lead. I will make adjustments. Welcome Fugabus (talk) 14:06, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

If future biographers state that Ekpa and Władysław Raczkiewicz are very comparable individuals, we'll deal with it then. For now, comparing Ekpa's 2023 org with the Polish government in exile is very much WP:OTHERCONTENT. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:32, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

For the interested

Ekpa content is being added at Biafra. Which is not in theory unreasonable, but current text like "In a significant move to declare the restoration of the Republic of Biafra, Biafran Government was restored on 08 April 2023 with the establishment of Biafra Republic Government in Exile." is. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:20, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, I saw that too. The one thing there is that, in the Nigerian context, the article meets GNG. So, I would edit it and watch incoming IPs or editors. — Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 05:50, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm in no way suggesting Biafra does not meet GNG. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:18, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Gråbergs Gråa Sång, I wasn't saying you insinuated either. The article has a lot to fix, I've tried the lead & Early life.... I may come back to this but not now. Thanks for your active fight against vandalism. Regards :-) — Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 07:35, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't suppose you read Finnish either? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:39, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Calling Ekpa Prime Minister in wiki-voice

In case anyone wants to discuss it/have an opinion, I argue that him being called PM by an org he started last year does not make him a Prime Minister. When the AU or UN refers to him that way, that's more interesting. For the WP:LEAD, "leader" is reasonable atm. Details in the body.

Sources differ in their approach, and it's not that easy to tell what is WP:RS, but caveats are fairly common:[2][3][4]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:55, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång, I suspect meatpuppetry here. Biafra topics are always bombarded with trolls, vandals and POV pushers and would suggest you stop feeding them. It would be helpful if the page is protected indefinitely for extended confirmed users. Best, Reading Beans 08:27, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't disagree, but the AGF is strong in this one. This is a WP:BLP and we should get things WP-right if we can. And I really agree on the protection suggestion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:36, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Also, you started this article, so you're to blame ;-) Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:47, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

AGF is what they always use to penetrate, you know. Our revert button shouldn’t be hesitated to be pushed when they come. Can you request for pp yourself?

Also, I’m sorry for creating the page! :)

Best, Reading Beans 03:54, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

"Not enough recent disruptive activity to justify protection." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:59, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

We seem to have deviated from the subject of the topic opened. Prime Minister or Leader? I opine that Prime Minister is more preferable for clarity purposes base on and the meaning of Government-in-exile on Wikipedia and the RS supports it. UN and AU have not disputed him for now per se meaning of government-in-exile and the Exile government started in 1970 when Odumegwu Ojukwu their President fled to Exile in Ivory coast. So, Prime Minister is more strong but he's not prime minister of a an independent country atm. He's a prime minister of a semi-sovereign country called Biafra. I hope that helps. Fugabus (talk) 12:40, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

@Fugabus, the article is fine the way it reads. Adding PM will add confuse to the mind of our readers. Best, Reading Beans 16:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

May I disagree with you Reading Beans? Adding PM will clarify the status instead of confusing readers. PM is more straight to the point instead of Leader as Leader has never been used in government-in-exile. We have had Governments in Exile in the past and they were all addressed by their title in their Wikipedia article page Lead. Let's be factual instead of being ficticious guys. Sentiments aside! Fugabus (talk) 18:31, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

Reliable sources seem to use the term "self-proclaimed Prime Minister" or "self-acclaimed Prime Minister". I have no objection to using either of those titles because they automatically attribute the claim to the article subject rather than put Wikipedia in the position of asserting he is "Prime Minister" in Wikipedia's narrative voice. ~Anachronist (talk) 02:49, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@Anachronist Thank you. The point me and Reading Beans is making is that it is better to leave this terminology to the body, since sources are a bit mixed and precision takes more words. There's a fair amount of drive by-edits like [5], which did add a source, a very positive article from WP:IBTIMES. There is also the fun "fact" that since he (cleverly?) named his org "government in exile", then, at least according to WP, it is a government in exile (like the Polish government-in-exile, see above thread), which is reaffirmed every time a source mentions it by name. Nevermind that Ekpa was born in 1985. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:25, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

The problem here is that the lead doesn't summmarize the body text. I made an attempt just now to rectify that, changing the lead paragraph to say "He appointed himself Prime Minister of the organization he leads, the Biafra Republic Government in Exile (BRGIE), which he founded in 2023." That is an objective fact we can say in Wikipedia's voice. ~Anachronist (talk) 13:55, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

And I think "leader" is a reasonable summary of "variously referred to him as "Prime Minister" or "self-acclaimed Prime Minister" of BRGIE". All in all, I don't see this as an improvement. But at least "self appointed" is in there. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:19, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@Anachronist

I believe the source from Suomen Kuvalehti [1 is more strong and overrides all other former sources. The source is coming from Finland and it is the most recent one. It would be notable to add Prime Minister and government-in-exile to differentiate between a sovereign nation and also to clear readers. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section should be applied as it will enhance clarity and not muddle it. It meets GNG We all should remember what WP:Lead says "The lead should identify the topic and summarize the body of the article with appropriate weight." Fugabus (talk) 14:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@Anachronist

Your edit on the Lead is seen. I would like to add clarity and readability to it since we have unanimously established here that he is the Prime Minister of the government-in-exile

Best regards Fugabus (talk) 14:12, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

You did not add clarity. That he appointed himself to lead the org he founded is very relevant. And you have an interesting use of "unanimously". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:17, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Also, on that one source you like, it seems it originally had ”Biafran pääministeri” in quote marks [6], indicating some skepticism. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:17, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

The article uses term such as he is prime minister in some ppl's eyes, also that he himself claim the title. Not that he unquestionably is the recognized pm by all. Then also gives a direct quote from Ekpa himself, ”Minä, Biafran pakolaisministeriön pääministeri, tuon teille uutisia toivosta.” or translated by me "Me, of Biafras ministry of exile's prime minister, bring you news of hope". he uses pakolaisministeriö (ministry of exile), instead of pakolaishallitus (government of exile). Insinuating he has a boss prime minister, president etc. somewhere. Just confusing. Maybe it's a genuine mistake by him and he means pakolaishallitus. The article uses government of exile instead of Ekpa though. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 18:45, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Per that article, he could be thinking of Nnamdi Kanu, "I am in contact with Kanu every day." That's me guessing. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:50, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Hello @Gråbergs Gråa Sång

Editors on Wikipedia base their edits on sources but it seems you are editing out of the RS. "It's your own point of view".See the sources I saw before making that little tweak edit. 1 2. He was appointed and not He appointed himself. According to the reportage, he announced his announcement which made it to be covered in the mainstream media as rightly contained under in the "Activism and separatism" section of the article. I withdraw the use of the word "unanimously" but pease abide and stop muddling context. I do not rather disagree with your point of view edits but would suggest you read Wikipedia Wikipedia:Manual of Style before reverting me again or reach my talk page to discuss my edits. I feel bullied right now and whenever my whole edits are being reverted and not being improved. TBH, I feel discouraged to continue to improve the English Wikipedia but I must continue regardless. You should be encouraging me and point out corrections while referring me to one or more guidelines and policies on editing I know I am a new editor but you scare me away and not being friendly as you should be with new editors on Wikipedia.

Sincerely,

Fugabus (talk) 19:23, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

On "Biafran pääministeri" contained at the top of that Finnish source, it is called Clickbait in journalism and readers aren't skeptical. That you are skeptical is your own point of view anyways and I leave that for you. Wish you could just take out time to educate yourself on politics and journalism in this case.

Best regards, Fugabus (talk) 19:24, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Who appointed him? He did. Why dispute or whitewash a fact that is already reported in reliable sources? It is an undeniable fact that he appointed himself as Prime Minister. Nobody is denying that he is Prime Minister. The fact that we have multiple sources pointing out that he declared himself to be Prime Minister is relevant. The lead should summarize the body, and the body clearly says he is self-appointed, an objective undeniable fact that is backed up by multiple sources. ~Anachronist (talk) 19:40, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@Fugabus

Whaat? Kuvalehti isn't really in the clickbait business, it is a bit of an posh magazine, high quality, limited circulation/readership. The comment I posted where more about what the article says and not my own opinion. It's right there in the article. The article goes through the disputes with IPOB and then states:

"Oli miten oli, Ekpa on nyt ainakin joidenkin pääministeri." or translated by me "Be it as it may, Ekpa is now at least the prime minister by some", with connotation/emphasis of joidenkin (by some) meaning not by all. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 19:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

To everyone, if someone wakes up and declares himself President of New Amsterdam, would we acknowledge this in wikivoice? I guess not. Now, that is what is happening here. Being the leader as written by Gråbergs Gråa Sång makes sense to me. Best, Reading Beans 20:10, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I would write it as just that and trust the reader, something like "claimed Prime Minister" or similar, with a qualifier in-front of the 'prime minister' title. Then add ref so reader can investigate themselves. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 20:21, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Someone else want to revert the whitewashing this time? [7] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:05, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I added ref pointing to the edit for readers to see. This should not be considered whitewashing but should be seen edit based on Wikipedia Censorship issue. The body of the article has saved a lot.

My regards

Fugabus (talk) 22:19, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång It is considered offensive to refer to Fugabus as Wikipedia:ADVOCACY editor. Doing what is right by editing base on Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines is not advocacy in anyway. What should you be called then because the last I checked, you are the most contributing editor on this article page. Which category did you fall in? Don't make editors to be skeptical here. Conflict of interest editor? Our edits should be not suggest conflict of interest, Wikipedia:Libel or Wikipedia:Censorship.

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view ought to be maintained at all level. Hello @Kennet.mattfolk

The dispute of whether 'Leader' or 'Prime Minister' has been resolved which we ended up with Prime Minister. Nnamdi Kanu seem to me to be their president according to the utterances of Ekpa in the Yle report. The dispute now is whether self-declared should be used in the Lead or the body. I am considering opening a topic for it so that it can be resolved amicably.

Fugabus (talk) 10:26, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Fugabus, it is obvious that you're an advocating for something—just you and other blocked editors are in lieu. You haven't done a good job hiding it. The other links you proposed do not make any sense to me either, so what’s your point with libel and censorship?

There is no dispute concerning self declared, you are the only one advocating for it (advocating? Whoops!). But then go ahead and open another discussion advocating for prime minister Ekpa. Best, Reading Beans 10:37, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Reading Beans. It has been proven that you may have a conflict on interest on this article and if not, why do you tend to scare new commers away from contributing neutrally? Your accusations are unfounded and I can't take it from you. I think you may be wanting only you and @Gråbergs Gråa Sång to be editing the page so that you may impose your own point of view on a notable figure like Simon Ekpa. From what I have seen, this article has NPOV template on it citing that edits from your likes are not neutral. See you again.

10:54, 28 April 2024 (UTC) Fugabus (talk) 10:54, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

It has not been proven that I have a conflict of interest. Why should a new comer jump into Simon Ekpa? Your first edit was here in this talk page. See this. How did you find it? And you have since then advocated for a lot of things that only you agree with—this my friend is POV pushing. Best, Reading Beans 11:02, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Also, saying that I and Gråbergs want to edit the page is known as guilt tripping, I have seen this and more and I assure you that I am not moved by them. Best, Reading Beans 11:06, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Reading Beans

Wow, that's interesting to know from you. You are editing base on emotions. You were the one that created this page. Right? How did you come about creating it? So, Wikipedia is now hidden that only you would find it. Come on, let us be behave as Wikipedians here. I may imply that you have a Wikipedia:Conflict of interest editor but that doesn't mean that actually. Why are you biting me as a newcomer which I agree I am? You are violating the Wikipedia Policies and guidelines.

Thanks for bringing my attention to the past editors anyway.

Sincerely,

Fugabus (talk) 11:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Fugabus, I didn't want to reply you but your latest addition which include "Why are you biting me as a newcomer which I agree I am? You are violating the Wikipedia Policies and guidelines." is another form of guilt tripping I am talking about. Also be aware of Wiki-lawyering. Best, Reading Beans 11:56, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Already made a statement here, it's not about 'biting' anyone, but accuracy. We are talking about a living person here. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 16:34, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

The PM bit in the lead, at the time I'm writing this, is the following:

"He is the self-declared prime minister of a government-in-exile, the Biafra Republic Government in Exile (BRGIE), which was founded in 2023."

It's not how I would have written it (that is "He is the leader of the Biafra Republic Government in Exile (BRGIE), an organization he founded in 2023."), but it has the "self-declared", which, afaict, everyone in this thread except Fugabus sees as essential if PM is to be mentioned at all. "Self-declared" or a close synonym, anyway.

So, for the sake of peace and consensus, I can live with this version if I must. Opinions, Wikipedians? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:12, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

It is fine as it reads now. We are in lieu with reliable sources. Best, Reading Beans 12:28, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

And here we go we again. May I disagree base on Wikipedia:Censorship that the media reported him to be self appointed doesn't make him self appointed. I suggest we should leave that Lead per my last tweak. It's very important we abide by the rules guiding Wikipedia:Libel The body of the article already covered different reportage from RS referring to him as self-declared or self-acclaimed while Kuvalehti and International business times, International news media independent from the Nigerian government referred to him as PM which @Kennet.mattfolk comfirmed. Fugabus (talk) 18:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

We do indeed, WP:ADVOCACY-editor. Your opinion is noted. @Kennet.mattfolk and @Anachronist, care to voice an opinion on this particular issue? And since you think there is libel in the article, I suggest you use the mailadress in that page you just linked. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:33, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Self-declared, hmm, there are arguments for and against. In Kuvalehti you get the understanding that Ekpa is more appointed by a fraction/faction of separatists to represent them as "prime minister". Self-declared implies he is the main driver to this post of pm, while removing the qualifier self-declared may give an impression of legitimacy, that hey he really is an pm. We don't know exactly who and what got him there. In the same article he seem to give passing praise to Nnamdi Kanu, with Ekpa even posing in a photo with a picture of kanu on an shelf, with the text "leader" on it. If the choice is between a bad qualifier of "self-declared" and no qualifier, I vote qualifier, noting it's a bad one. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 18:55, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

@Kennet.mattfolk That is the advantage of the "leader" lead-version, we don't have to pick a caveat there. But, you can see a couple of alts linked in my OP, and here's another Yle:[8]. Self-declared is from [9] which Fugabus added as a ref in the lead. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:05, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

The Yle article you link describes him as self-described prime minister, which I think is better than self-declared, due to more neutral connotation of self-declared which has a negative connotation. While Leader is good, but considering he considers Kanu too as a "Leader", you might end up with many person of the same title. Leader is too better than Self-declared, I prefer self-described. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 19:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Otoh, self-described has a hint that he's the only one who calls him that. IMO, that makes it worse. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

The legal stuff?

[10] "It also turned out that Ekpa had marketed legal services, even though he is not a lawyer. His consulting firm had handled the affairs of asylum seekers, and the asylum seekers had mistaken him for their assistant. In fact, the cases were handled by Ekpa's ex-wife, although the clients had never met the lawyer's wife. " (Google translate) Is this something we should include, or does it fail WP:PROPORTION etc? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

In Finnish law, he is not allowed to represent clients in court, but only allowed/licensed to give legal advice. The client then needs another to lawyer in court. This is why many finnish sources say he's a businessman instead of an lawyer.

Did quick google: https://yle.fi/a/74-20019718

It talk about his legal firm. The article specifically states "ulkomaalaislakiin erikoistuneena asiantuntijana" or Expert specialized into foreign law, the word asiantuntija should be should be 'asianajaja' or 'lupalakimies' if he was a lawyer. He is maybe a legal advisor. The article expressly also states he is not an lawyer (asianajaja). Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 18:16, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

In your article linked only his wife is mentioned as a lawyer. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 18:23, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

From the Yle source, they reported he specializes in Immigration law. So, any editor can add that. Lead may read "immigration lawyer" instead of "lawyer" for clarity. Fugabus (talk) 22:26, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Immigration lawyer is still a lawyer, and Kennet.mattfolk just said he's not a lawyer. "Legal professional"? "Legal worker"? Or does that read like he's working in the courts? Which maybe he is, I have no idea. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Per Yle "says on his social media pages that he has worked in the legal field in Finland since 2009: first in a legal office in Lahti and later also through his own company Ekpa & Co." The company website seems to be gone, btw. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:09, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Could Ekpa be making this up? Best, Reading Beans 06:56, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Look, the title asianajaja is for those that are members of the bar association, while lupalakimies are free agents with the same legal license to represent in court. Legally, only asianajaja and lupalakimies are allowed to represent a client in court, which is how a lawyer is defined. His then wife was the lawyer. Ekpa however has a license to advise, though not in a court room etc. Ekpa himself tells Yle directly "Olen ollut oikeusneuvojana" or "I have been/worked as an legal adviser". The confusion is rather here on the wiki. Maybe this advising is counted as lawyering in some other places, not to my understanding in Finland where he has practised. For example, I cannot claim to be an Oikeusneuvoja, I would need a similar education to that of Ekpa for it, so he still has a vocation, it's not just lawyer. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 09:45, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Let's go with "legal adviser" then. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:02, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Fyi, asked the Finnish wikipedians for a second opinion, considering the constant confusion on the vocational title. :) Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 10:58, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

A note on socking in this article

Of the 10 editors listed under "Top 10 by added text" at [11], 4 are blocked for socking, and 2 more just indeffed. As editing environment, it's not great. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:18, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

It is not and we still have something that looks like meant puppetry lurking around. Best, Reading Beans 06:07, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

@Reading Beans and

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång

This is not healthy for this page I must tell. I learn everyday Here. There could be a solution? «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 01:12, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:FULL, but that has some drawbacks. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 04:28, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Violence in the WP:LEAD?

There is quite a bit of violence mentioned in the Simon_Ekpa#Activism_and_separatism section. Should we add something on it in the lead, and if so, how? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:21, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

We also skipped the fact that he was dismissed by IPOB, this is what gave him attention in the first place.

According to Ekpa, IPOB was dissolved in a vote, renamed "Autopilot", and he became it's spokesman. Zubairu Dada, Nigerian minister, said the same year that "When [Ekpa] gives instructions, destruction follows. They cause killing, maiming, fires, whatever."—this statement by Dada is no joke. Vehicles, buildings, businesses were burned down with the supposed instructions from Ekpa. I have not really edited the article for a long time to avoid being bias. It was his violence that made the media to notice him.

Thank you for pointing this out, I have been so out of touch that I forgot. Best, Reading Beans 06:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I would mention he is accused of being responsible for violence, but qualifying it somehow, say by 'accused' or that he denies this. I think it is relevant to mention, but in a way where his statements are taken into account. Not just that with add something one sidedly. In the kuvalehti article he states he wants to replicate certain finnish institutions, such as the legal institition and according to him it's a suprise Nigeria is still standing. Something either if he justify his actions, then add that to counter a claim or if he denies it. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 09:56, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

The challenge is to come up with something short and correct. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

How about this; Ekpa has been accused of separatism and violence by figures such as Zubairu­ Dada, Olajumoke Ayandele which Ekpa denies. However Ekpa has said he is the commander of Eastern Security Network and that he wants to bring functioning institutions, such that exists in Finland, to Nigeria. ref:kuvalehti

Though whats funny is that in the kuvalehti article;

”Ekpan fraktio käy niiden kimppuun, jotka eivät noudata ulkona­liikkumiskieltoja ja niiden, joiden uskoo välittävän tietoa Nige­rian hallitukselle”, ACLED:n Nigerian-osaston päällikkö Olajumoke Ayandele kirjoittaa sähköpostissa.

”Ei pidä paikkaansa”, Ekpa sanoo.

”Sellaiset väitteet ovat hallituksen keksimiä, ne yrittävät mustamaalata kaikkea, mitä biafralaiset tekevät.”

Hallituksen joukot hyökkäävät jatkuvasti igboja vastaan, Ekpa sanoo.

Hän näyttää videoita, joissa panssarivaunut ampuvat toisiaan kohden. Toiset ovat kuulemma hallituksen joukkojen, toiset hänen johtamansa Biafran puolustusarmeijan.

Meaning he denies the claims, the next moment he reportedly show a video of a tank battle between Biafran separatists and Nigerian forces. He says the Nigerian forces don't go to those areas commanded by the separatists and therefore there is no violence, hence the claims are untrue. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 10:56, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Way too long for the lead, and the article atm doesn't even mention Eastern Security Network or Olajumoke Ayandele or that wish about functions. Maybe it should, but it doesn't. The lead is supposed to summarize the body.

I don't think separatism fall under accusations, it's the term for wanting to make a country out of a bit of another country. Also, he denies violence against civilians, at least according to one source. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:58, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

"Ekpa's activities have been reported to involve acts of violence."

How's that per several Yle and African sources? I'm not sure even Ekpa would disagree that's correct. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:34, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Maybe 'evolved in' otherwise thumbs up from me. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 12:57, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, "evolved"? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:00, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, involved :D Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 13:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Sorry again, not sure I get it. Can you write the sentence as you prefer it? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:29, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

"Ekpa's activities have been reported to be involved in acts of violence."

Makes it sound more like his activities are violent and not him. While your version manes it sound more like Ekpa is more a violent person. Just thought that my proposal sounds a bit better, but idk somebody can say what they prefer. :) Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 13:38, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

• makes not manes, srry it's friday.

Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 13:41, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

My reading is that "activities" aren't "involved" (but activities involve), but that's me. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

That there are reports of violence doesn't mean it has been comfirmed nor that he has been convicted in any law court. Refer to Wikipedia:BLPCRIME. Let's leave it for now till he is convicted. It would be considered libelous to add it. Meanwhile, Ekpa denied the accusations which is not being added in body of the article. 1 2.. This is what what we should be interested on. It would be interesting if he is convicted and then we may add it and not adding just mere accusations. ATM, it doesn't meet Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section

Fugabus (talk) 18:12, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Have you read the article? It already says Ekpa's activities have been reported to involve acts of violence, though in different words. But your WP:ADVOCACY view is noted, we'll see what other editors think. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång

Then, then it's better to leave it like that. At, Yle called him "Immigration lawyer" and your own terms still point to the same meaning which still falls under law. So, he's a lawyer.

Fugabus (talk) Fugabus (talk) 18:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Kennet.mattfolk, who speaks the language, says he's not. So listen to him. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:22, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I consider the term lawyer to mean a person who has the license to represent an client in court fi:asianajaja, even on the finnish wiki page it gives the english term lawyer as an alternative to this word. In Finnish media, from the start there has been made a distinction between Ekpa not being an asianajaja. I consider Lawyer and Asianajaja to be the same thing and according to my knowledge they are.

That said, I'm not a subject matter expert deep into legal jargon. I'm trying to translate/convey as accurately what the articles say as I can, due to Ekpa being a living person in our society. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 18:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Good enough for me. We can always try to get other people who know the language involved. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:46, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Btw, google translate agrees with me.

https://yle-fi.translate.goog/a/74-20019718?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

It translates; "Ekpa kuvaa yrityksensä verkkosivuilla itseään asiantuntijaksi erityisesti ulkomaalaislaissa. Hän ei kuitenkaan edusta asiakkaitaan itse oikeudessa eikä ole asianajaja.

– Olen ollut oikeusneuvojana, Ekpa sanoi Ylelle perjantaina puhelimessa."

to

"Ekpa describes itself on company's website as an expert, especially in the law on foreigners. They are not representing his clients in court and is not a lawyer.

- I have been a legal advisor, Ekpa told Yle on the phone on Friday."

I had to check, it translates asianajaja from the Yle text as lawyer and as I above on another comment, translated oikeusneuvojana as legal advisor, google does so too. And the legal advisor is a direct quote from Ekpa himself, describing his own job title. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 19:15, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

That seems reasonable, at a guess it's illegal in Finland to market yourself as a lawyer if you're not. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:25, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

It is, it is also illegal to market yourself as legal advisor. That's one reason why Ekpa originally got in trouble with KRP, he had done unclear marketing and put his lawyer wife names on legal documents that he conducted. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 19:28, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Reminds me of The Rainmaker, they did something like that there. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:31, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

...Are you saying we need a "self-described" on "legal advisor"? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:32, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Self-described Prime Minister, not the lawyer or legal advisor part. Lawyer seems more like a miss-translation of Finnish, while legal advisor is at least what he told Yle himself. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 19:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Got it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:45, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Prime_Minister_or_not

For the interested. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:52, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Prime Minister or not

Among the 40 page watchers on this article, you are all all invited to contribute to the ongoing discussion on Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard found here on whether Simon Ekpa is a Prime Minister or self-declared Prime Minister per the Lead. You may contribute there or under here as you all may wish.

Sincerely, Fugabus (talk) 17:16, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Splitting proposal

I propose that part of the section about Activism and separatism be split into a separate page called Biafra Liberation Army. Right now, typing "Biafra Liberation Army" into the search bar redirects to this article. This new BLA article will go into more detail about its stated objectives, statements, and attacks against Nigerian security forces. Battlesnake1 (talk) 03:43, 29 April 2024 (UTC) Battlesnake1 (talk) 03:43, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

References

I agree, they should be split, however they also need clarification.

'Syntyi Biafran pakolaishallitus. Eastern Security Network muutettiin Biafran Security Forceksi, puolustusarmeijaksi.

”Eli kaikki IPOB:n jäsenet ovat nykyään Biafran pakolaishallituksen puolella, paitsi muutama.”' source in the first post Simon_Ekpa#The_legal_stuff?/Kuvalehti.

According to this, Ekpa, when creating autopilot and the govt in exile, they just 'changed'(renamed) the Eastern Security Network into BLA. And that only a 'few' still support esn. Despite this claim is true or not, I think there should also be explainer on the relations between these different organisations. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 05:03, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Comment on sources you posted

1. This source actually covers many of the same topics as Kuvalehti, both now confirm that Ekpa is claiming an Biafran force of 100,000. We now have two independent of each other sources saying this. Though Kuvalehti and Yle (forgot which of Yles articles) talk about him maybe commanding 'tens of thousands'.

2. Seems to be based off of from Ekpa's twitter, I would rather use twitter if needed.

3. Told me I need licence to access

4. Also based on twitter, though with some small commentery.

5. Imo the best source in your list as to content, but a lot of it is based on Emma Powerful and her quotes. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 05:19, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Note that Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Biafra Liberation Army was redirected per afd not that long ago (and bluelocked), and at least under that name, they are very recent (WP:SUSTAINED). The [12] is pretty much WP:ABOUTSELF, as in "Ekpa says". So is [13]. [14] can't access this, not sure on WP:RS/WP:SPS here, it's labeled as "chatter", [15] is more ABOUTSELF. [16] is a view worth noting, but IPOB is clearly not a disinterested party. Suomen Kuvalehti had some thoughts on Emma Powerful.

I land at that the above sources don't meet WP:N, we don't have the independent, in-depth coverage to make a separate article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:45, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Should there then be a sub-section on here? On it that summerizes what we know, since there is the redirect and ppl might want specific info on BLA and are maybe not interested in Ekpa as a person. This can then later be split once we have the needed info Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 07:54, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Atm, BLA is part of a paragraph. How about starting expanding that with whatever good content there is, and if it swells much, make it an activism-separatism subsection? Any "Ekpa says" content should be in-text attributed as such IMO. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I added the P.M. News as a WP:ELMAYBE #4, what do you think? These images of the protect and defend people also falls under "Ekpa says." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:13, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Fwiw, pre-BLA, but [17] GT-says "He says he commands the IPOB separatist group and its armed wing, the Eastern Security Network, which he calls the Self-Defense Force." If you want to use it, it's a named ref in the article already. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:00, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

@Kennet.mattfolk, please GT-check me, will you? [18] (that's 2 YLE additions). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:14, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

^- is ok. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 12:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Should we write something of the kuvalehti source as I proposed above? That finnish text in my first reply. It's a snipet, but kuvalehti talks about how his armed group got it's start. This might imo be key information for somebody confused about IPOB's ESN and Ekpa's group. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 12:54, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Say something like; 'According to Ekpa, BLA got it's start from IPOB's Eastern Security Network ref:kuvalehti' Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 13:04, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Should we mention that Ekpa shows kuvalehti footage of combat by BLA, though this might be too controversial. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 13:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Not necessarily controversial (that he shows pics), but is it WP:PROPORTIONate? Try what you think best. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:18, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I got locked out again from the kuvalehti article. Need to try the website later again. Though I mention the text in Talk:Simon Ekpa#Violence in the WP:LEAD?. He tries to deny violence by showing proof of violent combat with Nigerian Security forces, there is no violence bc Nigeria doesn't go to areas controlled by BLA. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 13:24, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Try via [19]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:28, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

' Ekpa has continued Kanu's curfew orders, to protest the imprisonment of Kanu. Olajumoke Ayandele from ACLED criticize BLA for attacking those not following this curfew. Accusations that Ekpa denies. He shows an combat video between Nigeria's security forces and BLA to the Kuvalehti journalists. Ekpa then states "After the creation of the defensive forces, government forces no longer encroach on our area, because we have gunmen all over, that protect". Hence the claims of violence against civilians are untrue, according to Ekpa.

References

My proposal, it might be controversial. I also translated his quote myself, not via gt. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 13:57, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I probably need to copy edit that a bit more before publish. Haha Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 14:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Now, this must be a brilliant idea from you @Battlesnake1. The article is not worth a standalone article but having a section covering it under Simon Ekpa article page might help. When you put "Biafra Liberation Army" into the Wikipedia search bar, it redirects here and readers do not where to from there because it's scattered all over. Haha I support the split proposal and you may start it and let's see what you got and thereafter, we will expand it.

Fugabus (talk) 14:30, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I must have misread this, it seemed we agreed on something. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:22, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I like the "continued Kanu's curfew orders", I assume we're talking about the sit-at-homes here (so this bit should be inserted in connection with that), but it annoys me I don't find anything on Kanu's curfew orders in Nnamdi Kanu or Insurgency in Southeastern Nigeria (lots of Ekpa in that article I see).

Is she clearly criticizing BLA? But good comment, we can skip her name and make it "head of ACLED's Nigerian branch".

I'd skip the video (reasonable people may disagree), making the rest something like, "Ekpa denies violence against civilians, saying "After the creation of the defensive forces, government forces no longer encroach on our area, because we have gunmen all over, that protect." Ekpa denies violence against civilians is in the article already, so we rewrite that somehow, it doesn't need to be mentioned twice. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:41, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Something like this? 'Ekpa has continued Kanu's sit-at-home orders, to protest the imprisonment of Kanu. The head of ACLED's Nigerian branch criticizes 'Ekpa's faction' for attacking those not following this curfew. Ekpa denies violence against civilians, by stating "After the creation of the defensive forces, government forces no longer encroach on our area, because we have manpower all over, that protect".'

Changed the word gunmen to manpower, since the word has a more neutral tone as the Finnish miehistö, unlike gunmen, which on second thought sounded more negative. Well, she talks about Ekpas faction of IPOB who's attacking civillians, which is Ekpa's Biafran exile government, which 'army' is BLA. I assume she doesn't mean the bureaucratic arm of the exile govt is doing the violence. Anyhow, changed it for clarification. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 16:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Yeah I'm not that sure when she said it. Looks ok to me, go for it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

So "The Eastern Security Network was transformed into the Biafra Security Force, a defense army." is about BLA? GT of course. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:16, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Transformed is wrong, he say ESN was "renamed", though I guess the same thing. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 13:19, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Is [20] reasonably close? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:25, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes it is, but I think I already saw you changed it to rename :D Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 14:36, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Say what you want about GT, it could be worse:[21]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

It's pretty good haha :D Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 14:38, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Ping afd closer @Star Mississippi if you feel like having an opinion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:15, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the ping @Gråbergs Gråa Sång. My on wiki time is limited and I am facing a language issue here so I cannot delve into it right now. If you collectively feel as if they consensus reached in that AfD is no longer true, I'm happy to undo the protection or retarget the redirect to a section if BLA remains here. If factors have changed, I also don't believe it needs DRV. If I'm offline, please also take this as my OK for you to ask someone else to handle it. I don't want to be a hold up. Let me know how else I can help/ Star Mississippi 01:37, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I remember now, we haven't concluded yet on this. Ping to @SafariScribe: and @Wikishovel: @Fram: @Vanderwaalforces: and @CommonsDelinker:

From the history, you were involved in that AfD and now @Star Mississippi has a question has a question whether to undo the protect or retarget the redirect to a section under this article page.

Your contributions highly are needed here.

Comment with:

• Undo protect
• Retarget the redirect to a section

IMO, I think it is better to

• Retarget the redirect to a section here.

«fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 15:06, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

BRGIE Draft

I just thought of starting this Draft on Biafra Republic. All interested editors are welcomed to contribute, develop and expand it with all the RS available. @Gråbergs Gråa Sång @Kennet.mattfolk Fugabus (talk) 18:50, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

IMO it has no independent WP:N (WP:NORG may also be of interest) from this article, at this point in time, it's Ekpa's "thing", but that might change if it gets a next PM, a few years of existence or something like that. Has been afd at least once: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Biafra Republic Government in Exile. More history at [22], and per this I'd advice that you don't move it to mainspace yourself if you feel it's ready to go, use the submission button. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:05, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Also "is the governing body of Biafra" is, well, perhaps you see it, perhaps not. Good luck with your draft. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:14, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång

I have seen that and this is the reason I want everyone who may wish to improve it. Someone already tried in the past. I consider dropping the draft for now because it doesn't meet Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies) for now. RS are most centered on Ekpa and that is where everything fails. My Mentor already me what else to do. Thanks for pointing things out.

«fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 00:32, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Recent major changes

My last edits added "Known for Biafran nationalism" to the Infobox and "Biafran nationalist" To the Lead and Biafran Nationalist to the Short description.

Best, «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 01:06, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't make sense. No citation addressed him as a "nationalist". So, IMO I will say remove entirely and leave "Finish politician and legal advisor". Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 01:11, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Consider WP:SHORTDESC. Per article content, "Finnish politician and legal advisor" doesn't work, IMO "Finnish politician and Biafran separatist" is good enough, also separatism is more than half the lead-content. Some WP:LEADREFs can probably be trimmed, but controversial/fought over topics tends to have a lot of them, sometimes extensive cite-bundles. If the article becomes more stable at some point, it may be easier to trim them. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Btw, if we have some good sources on Ekpa's nationalism, something on that could be reasonable to include. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Now you edits has changed MOS:ORDER. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 01:13, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

From a person point of view, many editors has talked about this article and something should be done. Sources needs to be the first case, since I can see REFBOMB in the lease mentioning words and not being independent. On another note, I will source and spit check those refs on this talk page and anyone is free to contribute. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 01:23, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think he was a professional footballer. Until then, I will leave it, till I find any other source. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 01:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Imo, some of the recent edits have been questionable, slowly changing wording to such that it no longer reflects a source. I would almost apply some form of protection on the article. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 08:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

@Fugabus, @Gråbergs Gråa Sång, and @Kennet.mattfolk, something can be done to stop this disruptive edits. I see that because the article content is not even stable, any unknown user can come and add anything. But if it becomes stable, pending changes can apply. For now, I will give my time to try this out and remove any form of word that isn't neutral at all or didn't correspond to the source. Even if at the end of the day, a good/correct article with "four-five" reliable sources is made, we'do be happy. I will start right away. Please all support needed when you think I got one wrong. @Gråbergs Gråa Sång, remember I told you I can help though I have a lot doing. Guys, off I start! Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 08:44, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

@SafariScribe, please take the time to read through the recent and linked discussions on this talkpage, if you haven't. And don't be too WP:RECKLESS. And if you have a view on the Talk:Simon_Ekpa#Violence_in_the_WP:LEAD? thing, please let us know. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:49, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Got ya. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 08:58, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Also, Kennet.mattfolk actually speaks Finnish. It's not GT:s best friend. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:58, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Was just typing this :D. GT usually translates somewhat correctly, but the connotations can be wrong, bc GT uses a negative synonym vs the source a neutral one. Also finnish words with mamy English meanings can go wrong. Such pitfalls. Let me know if you need me to check something. :) Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 09:14, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

There is no problem. I also see the source in Finnish is reliable since it was from Yle. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 09:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

From the sources, why can't we call this Nigerian Finnish politician, lawyer, and Biafra.... I see there is a relationship b/w Nigeria and Finland, and from Nigerians in Finland, Ekpa is equally one. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 09:22, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Fine with me, but I think he and his followers object to him being called Nigerian, which won't surprise anyone who read the article. MOS:ETHNICITY is a bit tricky. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't matter too. We just have to correct the disputed invoked with this article. Check it out. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 09:35, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

He is not an lawyer! I'm ok with calling him Nigerian Finnish as long as this is in the body not the template where it concerns citizenship. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 10:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Help me check whether he served the Finnish Defence Forces which contains the Finnish Army. Do you know how they do there's there. I see it should just be army since the Finnish military is the three; army, navy, etc. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 10:04, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

The source just state the military, which commonly is known as the army. But from a picture in the source we can see a reference to the Hämeen Rykmentti, which is a land army unit yes. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 10:18, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång @Kennet.mattfolk @SafariScribe

Thank you guys for the contributions. I read through all and it was worth it. We don't want to deviate down the line but I have to say per "Nationalist". Daily Post covered this per the meaning derived from the meaning of a Nationalist. Separatist or Nationalist? He is not fighting to separate from Nigeria but fighting to restore a lost sovereignty. You may also see Igbo nationalism Check the differences in meaning to see what accurately fits. It's all about revival and not starting a new thing. See also this section Biafra#Post-war_events_and_Biafran_nationalism Separatism means starting a new ideology that never existed while Nationalism means reviving the old one. IMO "Nationalist" is more grammatically correct to what he's known for. I would love to address all my edits here but it seems I missed it. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 19:40, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

No, he is. Biafra is a smaller state that needs to be separated from Nigeria. They are cited in the sources. Follow the citations in Activism. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 19:53, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Technically you can't restore something that was never gained. Biafra lost the war. However, nationalism and separatism are different terms and contain some overlap but also different aspects. Nationalism isn't so much the method as ideology, while separatism has an bigger emphasis on separating. For example you can have different ideologies wanting separatism, without being nationalist. Viet Minh wanted to separate from France, but had commuists, royalists etc. in there.

Ekpa could be both an separatist and an nationalist at the same time. The rebels usually prefers nationalist while the government separatist, typically. Just use both and clarify with good sources. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 19:53, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Separatist is more spot on, better for lead and, possibly, used in more sources. There is atm nothing about nationalism in the article. He is known for his whatever with at least 2 separatist orgs. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:46, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I will still argue this. He is no longer associated with IPOB, the separatist group. In fact, IPOB have dismissed and disowned him. See sources Punch, Sahara. FYI, these are Wikipedia:PRIMARY sources and may not reflect all current status.

And when you say two separatist group, I don't know which other one you mean @Gråbergs Gråa Sång. The exiled government? The Kuvalehti report didn't treat them separatists but it treated them as Nationalists. The report said they plan to issue re-declaration of Biafra and I ping @Kennet.mattfolk here. Please give us more insight on the agenda of BRGIE. To separate from Nigeria or to restore the lost sovereignty of Biafra that existed between 1967-70. You always help here.

We as editors are here to evaluate things and not necessarily need a ref that directly called him 'Nationalist'. We rely on WP:SECONDARY the most for accurate information and to maintain consistency.

Characteristics of Nationalism surround EKPA per Suomenkuvalehti.fi and Daily Post Nigeria. As for the body, not having Nationalism, I will reform It. IMO in order to improve the page, things need to improve with the Secondary sources from Finland. Not From Nigeria because News media there are allegiance to the Nigerian state and are working for the Nigerian government. Ekpa is clearly anti Nigerian government state and there are Censorship from. That's why Finland sources are more independent and reliable. (Neutral) I have other things doing and I may not be regular here to reply all topics. Let's dive more deeper here. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 18:50, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

So, technically speaking, Ekpa is a Nationalist and not Separatist. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 18:53, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

He still claims command of an armed force that aim to separate Biafra from Nigeria. If he was only a nationalist he could try other methods. Gandhi did via strike action, other via advocasy, elections. He specifically advocates separatism as the method.

Kuvalehti is not an secondary source just fyi, the journalists actually sat down with Ekpa himself and put lots of direct quotes from him in there.

I think he is both an nationalist and separatist. If you want to use the terms, imo, just source them properly and write the article clearly so the reader know when someone talks about nationalism, the ideology, goals, and when separatism methods and goals. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 20:19, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

@Kennet.mattfolk

Nationalism is more strong hence I choosed it. I don't object to your suggestions either as I will apply it in my edits. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 20:44, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Hello @Kennet.mattfolk. You may wish to state your contributions on this direct, formal discussion on this topic opened by me as we set the record straight. I don't want your contributions to be disjointed here. Thanks

See Talk:Simon_Ekpa#Nationalist_or_Separatist_in_Wiki-voice and please state your contributions. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 21:20, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:SHORTDESC

At the time I write this, it's "Finnish politician and legal advisor" which doesn't fit article content. I suggest "Finnish politician and Biafran separatist". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

But you know this isn't necessary creating a new thread. I added back the three per WP:SHORTDESC. The short description doesn't even matter that plenty instead to the article in question. It's is a given opinion and I love the fact you always try to clarify. Let's work on the article first. I am planing to take this to sandbox, I mean as copied. What do you think? Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 09:01, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

It's ok, I don't think "(born 1985)" is needed, he's no James Rowe, but that's me. A thread should try to stay on topic, when possible. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:11, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Removed. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 09:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

His legal firm when bust so replacing legal advisor woth Biafran separatist is ok with me. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 09:24, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Some sources still recognizes him as a lawyer too. I added three of them, it's good for me. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 09:27, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh!, he isn't a lawyer. Per YLE, he is also a self made legal advisor. This BLP eh, everything is just self-made! 😡 Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 09:33, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

See discussion at Talk:Simon_Ekpa#The_legal_stuff?. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:34, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Just Legal advisor. No need for self made. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 10:20, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Lead expansion

Safari Scribe, I reverted you here:[23]. That's not a summary of article content, it's just repetition. "Nigerian Finnish politician, former athlete, and legal advisor" is summary. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:47, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I was trying to confirm a little thing here and there. Still working on that till I have to check where Häme Regiment should be or just Finish military. It's alright albeit I can't see myself do these any longer. Why couldn't you wait or do it yourself. Thanks for your effort towards this article I have this article to finish. Good luck with editing! Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 12:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Häme Regiment is the training unit for conscripts in the province of Häme (hence the name) around modern city of Lahti. Kennet.mattfolk (talk) 13:31, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Nationalist or Separatist in Wiki-voice

IMO, Nationalist is more technically correct per what Ekpa represents instead of Separatist.

A Nationalist believes to regain or maintain a lost Homeland while Separatist believes to create a new Homeland from existing State.

So, what fits Ekpa in this context? «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 19:05, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

That should be you pov. I guess nationalist identifies with his nation as well as support the interest. Ekpa from sources doesn't claim to be a Nigerian because he has the interest of Biafra, the short-lived state. Biafra is not a country too, and it simply explains "separatism". Please don't make threads long on something that didn't seem to be arguable. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 19:16, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

And that's from you right now and I quote you here: Ekpa from sources doesn't claim to be a Nigerian because he has the interest of Biafra, the short-lived state.

I take it from you dear @SafariScribe

Now, let me break it down for us. If Ekpa denounced Nigeria and he believes in Biafra, a short-lived state, it technically means he is trying to revive that short-lived state making him a Nationalist. That state had already existed.

He would be rightly called a Separatist if he is fighting to separate from Nigeria (New course). Biafra had already separated and Ojukwu was that Separatist. People trying to revive Ojukwu's Biafra are Nationalists. Biafra was recognized by 5 countries according to sources. I read that from the Biafra page and you can also read.

Best of luck «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 20:56, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

He is a separatist because he wants to make a country from a bit of another country, that is separatism, and sources says so:[24][25][26]. He may be a nationalist too, the terms are not mutually exclusive, but bring decent sources so we can write something in the article about that. He is more obviously a separatist though, that's his "thing." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:09, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I made my position clear above, in a nutshel, he's an nationalist using separatism as a way to get independence. Don't get this zero sum thinking of either or. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 07:03, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Btw, which is your best WP:RS that calls Ekpa a nationalist? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:59, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

hello I agree with you on that. He was a "Separatist" per Wikipedia:PRIMARY sources but today, he's a Nationalist per Wikipedia:SECONDARY.

Suomenkuvalehti.fi reported he plans to issue a declaration for a country that has not existed for a century and the records are not there. That's the reason @Kennet.mattfolk: believes he is a Nationalist while Primary sources called him Separatist and Ekpa even referred to himself as that then per sources but interpretation later changed down the line with secondary sources.

WP:SECONDARY contains analysis, evaluation, interpretation, or synthesis of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources.

Can't you see that was what suomenkuvalehti.fi did? «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 15:09, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

It may interest to read Igbo nationalism. No source directly called them Nationalist but it was evaluated by the editors there because of their ideology to revive Igbo culture and that's what we should do here also per Kuvalehti report «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 15:11, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

So... According to you, Ekpa has stopped wanting/working for an independent Biafra at some point late last year or so? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:01, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Nope. You missed it @Gråbergs Gråa Sång. He didn't stop asking for independence but changed ideology from Separatism to Nationalism this year when the Kuvalehti reported he plans to declare Biafra, a short-lived state that existed between 1967-70. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 16:10, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

@Kennet.mattfolk

Technically, Biafra is a semi-sovereign nation with the government-in-exile existing. This argument is tough. Lol. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 16:13, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Then he is a separatist. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:25, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I didn't assert he is a Separatist. You are putting that into my mouth. I said Biafra is a semi-sovereign nation, with effect of the government-in-exile making Ekpa a Nationalist. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 16:31, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

That is your WP:OR. But if you have some WP:RS, like say the UN, that states "Biafra is a semi-sovereign nation", that could be of use in an article somewhere. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:34, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

@Kennet.mattfolk I agree with you on this your submission. Yes, he is a Nationalist and Separatist. I already tweaked the section "Activism and separatism" to Nationalism and separatism ".

The section will clarify everything we are discussing here with that Kuvalehti report. Off to the article page again. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 16:35, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

And I revert it since there's nothing about nationalism in that section. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:48, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think they are even a semi-sovereign nation. I'm talking about a nationstate. Being semi-sovereign nation would require having some diplomatic relations, Estonian government-in-exile had some foreign recognition.Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 16:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

An nationalist wants to establish an national state? In Kuvalehti he talks about establishing an Biafra with institutions like that of Finland. Meaning he doesn't want an anarchistic, tribal or any other alternative. The same source also has Ekpa showing them footage of fighting and talk on armed forces etc. Meaning Ekpa is no Gandhi. One sorce shows

Quotes:

-"Ekpa johti Biafran itsenäisyyttä ajavaa separatistiryhmän siipeä, joka vastusti Nigerian keskushallintoa. "

Confirms separatism

-"Oikeusjärjestelmästä tulee samanlainen kuin Suomessa, pääministeri ilmoittaa, ja selittää sen toimintatavan: se on jaettu hallinto-oikeuteen ja rikosoikeuteen. Hän on henkilökohtaisesti todennut, asuttuaan vuosia Suomessa, että järjestelmä sopii hyvin Biafraan. "

Goal of establishing a western justice inatitution

-'”Katsomme kohti itsenäistä Biafraa, jossa ei ole rikollisuutta, jossa laki on sama kaikille, jossa oikeus tapahtuu, jossa rikolliset joutuvat vastuuseen ja jossa poliisi ei ole korruptoitunut.”'

He talks about his goals directly. he talks about a Biafra with instituutions

-"Hallitus käyttää aina väkivaltaa, Ekpa sanoo, eikä siihen voi vastata kuin väkivallalla. On pakko puolustautua. Puolustusvarat kerätään lahjoituksina. "

Separatism.

Etc.

I think him as a Nationalist who wants to establish an nationstate via violent separatism. Thus a nationalist and separatist. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 15:48, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm not saying he's not a nationalist too, but for us to say it we should have something good clearly stating it. And I still think separatist is the more obvious of the two. If there's a RS quote of him saying he's a nationalist somewhere, we can put that in the article somewhere, perhaps. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

That's the thing, in mass media terms, one tends to be an separatist until one wins and becomes and nationalist. Though it's a bit spoon-feedery imo. Ppl should know enough to make up their own minds, the wiki isn't imo supposed to pick sides. Nationalist pro-Biafra, separatist pro-Nigeria. Because Nationalist implies there already is an Biafra, which there is not. While Separatist emphesizes the violence, trying to de-emphazise the goals behind it. Alone both terms are bad imo. I would just use the term nationalist when the question is about institutions, a nationstate and separatist when about violence, commands and what not. Then let the reader figure the rest out. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 16:08, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Did Mandela become a nationalist when he won? Maybe, idk. I don't think it's that simple, nationalism is not exactly violence free, and sometimes involves "Hey, those bits of land should be ours!". To use the term nationalist in a BLP you should have good sources for that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:19, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

On the goals/vision bits you quote above, to me that sounds more like politics than nationalism. Nationalism would be something like "Only Igbo people will be allowed to be citizens in our country." "where the law is the same for everyone" can probably fit in any (official) ideology. But, we're interpreting, that's not good around here. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:16, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Nationalism is politics, it's an political ideology, political parties may even advocate it in elections. Sweden Democrats may be a nationalist party today, because they can be that, if Sweden where part of an Eastern Federation they may have an militia and be called separatistic instead. Just an general observation over the years.

That's the thing, we're talking about politically loaded terms, when someone reads the wiki page they may associate our words in a certain way. That's the problem with labels. Sepafatist is in my ears a little better than 'rebel' . Yle in one article [[27]] uses the word 'Nigerian revolt-er' basically rebel, with the connotation of 'revolting' vs 'rebelling'. These are all choices. Same with Fugabus wanting Nationalist.

Personally I prefer to give the reader what the source says and letting the reader do the thinking. If the word nationalist is too scary, then write about his goals, say he wants to build an Biafra that looks like x. Then leave the reader to figure out if it is separatism or nationalism. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 17:47, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Nationalism is politics, politics is not necessarily nationalism. IMO, separatism/separatist is not a loaded term here, it's well used in sources and fits per text-book definition, wants to carve out a country from another country. I'm reminded of discussions on bible-stories being called myths on WP. If you want add something reasonable about how he has a vision of Biafra doing some stuff in the future like Finland, you can try that, but that is not obviously nationalism, at least not to me. Again, sources that discuss the nationalism of Ekpa, calling it nationalism, would help. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Chiming in from WP:BLPN: Does any RS say "nationalist"? If so, does the implicit "nation" exist in a way that enjoys international recognition? If not, the subject is a separatist, as RS appear to state currently. The TP comment and line of reasoning only predecessors were separatist, considering the separation a fait accompli and subsequent activists "nationalist", either refers some wonderful unshared RS, or reflects a heaping spoonful of original research. Cheers! JFHJr (㊟) 17:40, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm ok with calling him only a separatist, even though it's a bit incorrect. Tometo Tomato. A too careful approach may sometimes be incorrect and only reactive. That's the choice many make these days, incl wiki from my feeling. However, I sucpect @Fugabus won't be a happy cookie with that. :D Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 17:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Footballer or Athlete?

The first section reads "As a child, Ekpa was a local football player and later, a professional winning the 100 meters silver medal for Nigeria at the 2003 African Junior Athletics Championships in Cameroon."

Was Ekpa a footballer or an Athlete? I don't get this actually. This is complicated! And the Lead even has Athlete making matters worst. It's better to remove that athlete from the Lead not confuse readers. What do you all think? «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 15:25, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Source? Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 15:52, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Ok, found it https://www.thecable.ng/close-up-simon-ekpa-nnamdi-kanus-finland-based-disciple-and-king-of-fake-news/amp/ Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 15:53, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Nothing about football there, removed it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:57, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Athlete. Kennet Mattfolk (talk) 15:59, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Good we rectified this. SefariScribe was the one who added that mess. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 16:05, 5 May 2024 (UTC)