Talk:Sehet, wir gehn hinauf gen Jerusalem, BWV 159

Grammar in lead

@Ashershow1 - Thanks for spotting an extra "in" in BWV 159. Teach me English: why do you think the passive "It was written" is preferable to "He wrote it". Typically (for some 200 cantatas) the line continues "and first performed it", to stress that he himself conducted (and probably played continuo in) the first performance, actively so. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:38, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Since the subject of the article is about the cantanta and not about Bach, starting the second sentence with "He" is somewhat ambiguous and generally inadvisable. Remember that the lead of an article should be able to stand alone if needed. Therefore the subject of each sentence in the lead should be about the article's subject, not a continuation of a previous sentence. Sentence continuation is, however, mechanically permissible in the later sections of the page. Thanks for your interest in grammar! --Ashershow1_{talk•contribs} 22:54, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. Would "Bach" be better than "he"? I still don't like "performed by Bach" so much, because it sounds (to me) like he was the sole performer, but there were soloists, the Thomanerchor and instrumentalists. This is explained in Bach cantata, and I don't think it needs to be repeated 200 times. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:43, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

• Sure. If you want to say "Bach performed the cantata," that's fine because the cantata is still the subject of the sentence. I would say just try to make sure that in the lead of an article, each sentence can make sense on its own. Refrain from letting sentences in the lead rely on each other. Thus, "The cantata was written and performed by Bach" sounds better (to me) than "The Cantata was written by Bach. He also performed it." --Ashershow1_{talk•contribs} 16:50, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Then how about "Bach composed the cantata ... and performed it ..."? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:55, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I changed the sentence originally because it immediately struck me as grammatically incorrect, or at best, awkward. The subject of the lead is the cantata, not Bach. Here is the original lead:

Sehet, wir gehn hinauf gen Jerusalem (Behold, let us go up to Jesusalem), BWV 159, is a church cantata by Johann Sebastian Bach. He wrote it in Leipzig for the Sunday Estomihi, the Sunday before Ash Wednesday, and probably first performed it on 27 February 1729.

The subject of the first sentence is Sehet, wir gehn hinauf gen Jerusalem. The mention of Bach is a sidenote, a comment at the end of the sentence. To start off the continuation sentence with a casual pronoun "he," is only correct if it refers to the subject of the previous sentence. For the sake of argument (this would not be appropriate for a WP lead), you could technically write:

Bach wrote the cantata Sehet, wir gehn hinauf gen Jerusalem in February 1729. He wrote it in Leipzig for the Sunday Estomihi, the Sunday before Ash Wednesday, and probably first performed it on 27 February 1729.

Do you see the difference? The second version made Bach the subject of the first sentence, thus justifying the use of "he" in the beginning of the second sentence.

--Ashershow1_{talk•contribs}

Suggestion then:

Sehet, wir gehn hinauf gen Jerusalem (Behold, let us go up to Jerusalem), BWV 159, is a church cantata by Johann Sebastian Bach. Bach composed the cantata in Leipzig for the Sunday Estomihi, the Sunday before Ash Wednesday, and probably first performed it on February 27, 1729.

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:35, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

That's great! The subject/verb agreement is perfect in both sentences. Might want to make the same revision to your other cantata articles. --Ashershow1_{talk•contribs} 23:37, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Gerda, it's so good, I think I'll set it to music. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:44, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Taken, but I have no time at present to do the others, will keep it in mind for the future ones, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:15, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Es ist vollbracht

I have an old (1927) recording of Elisabeth Schumann singing "Es ist vollbracht", with Léon Goossens on oboe. We say it's written for bass, but she was certainly no bass. This version was adapted by the conductor, Karl Alwin. Is it common for Bach arias written for one voice to be adapted for a voice at the opposite end of the scale? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 02:19, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Common, I don't know. Bach was very specific about assigning voice type to movements in the context of a work, Evangelist, vox Christi, soprano for innocent soul, alto for compassion - this is generally speaking, of course. Out of context, anything goes, certainly in 1927. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:51, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

1729 or possibly earlier

From Bach-Jahrbuch 2015, p. 43: A closer look at the Picander 1728 print (re-published 1732) shows that in aria no. 2 ("Ich folge dir nach"), the rapidly alternating division of individual verses exactly corresponds to Bach's setting. Picander seems to have already known the setting when it was printed in 1728 and to have taken its division into account. 85.76.45.57 (talk) 09:39, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

The latest source we use for the performance is Bach Digital, which has only one date. You can add that the 2015 had other theories, perhaps as a footnote. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:47, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Lemme check Bach Digital... First performance on February 27, 1729 (or possibly earlier, see Blanken BJ 2015) 85.76.45.57 (talk) 18:23, 1 September 2023 (UTC)