Talk:Second ladies and gentlemen of the United States/Archive 1

I imagine there is not an official title "Second Lady"; Surely that has to be an error. --Ce garcon 12:24, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In an earlier version of the article I wrote that it was an unofficial title and a mere honorific. I guess someone thought that was an error and changed it. --Gerald Farinas 17:33, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've changed the reference to "the formal title of the First Lady" to "the unofficial title of the First Lady." The wife of the President does not have an official title. I've also removed the sentence, "The title is traditionally only used during an active vice presidential term," which was sheer nonsense. This absurd title is not traditionally used at all. I can't imagine why this article has been allowed to stand in its present form. What's next? An article titled "Third Lady of the United States," listing the wives of the Speakers of the House? "Third Gentleman of the United States," referring to Paul Pelosi? Frankly, this kind of thing detracts from Wikipedia's credibility. WilliamBarrett 15:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

List Expansion

The section "Partial list of Second Ladies" in this article needs to be expanded until it is completed. --TommyBoy 03:01, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Cornelia Tappan Clinton

I have removed Cornelia Tappan Clinton from this list, because she died before her husband became Vice President. --TommyBoy 18:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Article Criticism

Since the use of "Second Lady" appears to be based solely on a poll conducted by Yahoo (see link cited), this article is not worth being in Wiki. "Second Lady" is incorrect and misleading, as the title does not exist, even casually or informally. Again, the term comes solely from an apparently multiple choice Yahoo poll. Either this article should be renamed or it should be deleted.Mowens35 15:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I think the biggest problem is that it's based on the incorrect assumption that the First Lady is always the president's wife, and has no clear plan for what to call the husband of a theoretical female Vice President. 153.42.168.174 (talk) 07:58, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Article Criticism

Since the use of "Second Lady" appears to be based solely on a poll conducted by Yahoo (see link cited), this article is not worth being in Wiki. "Second Lady" is incorrect and misleading, as the title does not exist, even casually or informally. As the link states, "Alas, at the very bottom of the page, we found your answer -- there is no official designation for the wife of the vice president. The answer was part of a poll asking readers to vote on a title for the position. The top choice was "The Second Lady," followed by Mrs. _____, then "Mrs. Vice President," and finally, 19% of those polled felt she did not merit an official title." Therefore, the title does not exist, either formally or informally. This article should be placed under another title (Vice-Presidential Spouses, perhaps) or deleted altogether. Mowens35 15:49, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

I propose Conort to the Vice President of the United States, Wife of the Vice President of the United States, or Spouse of the Vice President of the United States. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ILDB (talk • contribs) 18:17, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

This entire page and title if redicilous; we have good consensus here, I'm moving it to Spouses of the Vice Presidents of the United States. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawk08210 (talk • contribs) 16:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Style

The style for the Second Lady or Wife of the Vice President of the united states is NOT Mrs. Second Lady or Madame Second Lady!! It is simply " Dr. Biden " or " Mrs. Cheney " Irviding11 (talk) 20:28, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

And for goodness sake aka crying out loud, it's not an "office" with an "incumbent" and a "successor". --209.16.182.132 (talk) 03:20, 26 June 2010 (UTC)[Haruo]

Tipper Gore

Shouldn't it read Tipper Gore Ex-wife of Al Gore? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brianearlhaines (talk • contribs) 16:41, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

They are not divorced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.134.84.84 (talk) 23:19, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

First use of title?

Ought to say when the phrase 'Second Lady' was first used. 86.181.213.189 (talk) 02:03, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't think it's an actual title. It's just an informal styling people sometimes use when they don't feel like saying "wife of the Vice President." Also Wikipedians love using it for some strange reason. This article name really needs to be reverted to "Wife of the Vice President of the United States." It's silly using a fake title. --SchutteGod (talk) 23:32, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

List table: Vacancy dates, in wrong column.

Not sure how to do it. But the vacancy dates should be in the tenure column, not the death column. GoodDay (talk) 15:11, 31 August 2019 (UTC)

I changed 'colspan' values for the affected rows and think this is fixed now. —ADavidB 13:17, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Confusion

This article needs to differentiate between a "Second Lady Of The United States" who was merely someone who can be CALLED that because she was/is married to a Vice President, vs. someone who held the GOVERNMENT OFFICE with the title "Second Lady Of The United States", with office space in a government building, government-salaried staff, rules to follow concerning travel expenses on personal matters vs. travel expenses pursuant to the job, etc.. I came here to see when "Second Lady" as a government office (not just a term bandied about in common parlance) was originated, and I didn't find ANYTHING of help. The article on "First Lady" does provide some guidance there, noting that TR's 2nd wife Edith Roosevelt may have been (the article could be clearer) the first "First Lady" in the sense of having a government position (i.e. staff paid for by government) with that title. My sense is (but I could be wrong) that Martha Washington and Abigail Adams did NOT have government positions.2604:2000:C682:2D00:948F:6864:E9B6:9D2B (talk) 19:31, 10 February 2018 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

This article should just be deleted. This position and title do not exist. Neutron (talk) 04:22, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Image update timing

When should the image at the top of the article change from Karen Pence to Douglas Emhoff? Inaguration day (when the change is official)? User:Heyoostorm^_talk! 21:10, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Inauguration day, since VP-elect is not the same as VP (and so second gentleman-elect is not the same as second gentleman).--Jasper Deng (talk) 21:12, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Second Lord of the United States

Wouldn't it be easier if he was referred to as "Lord" for the abbreviation — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haveanimpact (talk • contribs) 07:42, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Maybe. But Wikipedia does not decide what he should be called; Wikipedia reports what he verifiably is called. "Lord" is the distaff counterpart to "Lady" only when used as a noble title. In the connotation of etiquette, the common terminology would be "ladies and gentlemen." And "first gentleman" has been commonly used throughout the world for male spouses of officeholders, including in the United States for husbands of governors, thus the expectation that the article title will eventually reflect that. But if reliable sources call him the "Second Lord of the United States," the article should reflect that. --DavidK93 (talk) 11:07, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

 Disagree No one calls it lord. -- Manasbose ^{(talk | contribs)} 12:10, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

"Gentleman" is the overwhelmingly-used term for specifically a male spouse here in America. "Lord" is not used as a title anywhere in America outside of religion.--Jasper Deng (talk) 21:34, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

Gender titles

I suppose we'll cross that bridge if/when we get to it. But, there's a strong possibility that the next Vice President of the United States will be a 'married' heterosexual woman. Will be interested in how we handle this article's title, on & after January 20, 2021. GoodDay (talk) 15:08, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Indeed I was just wondering about this. We could hardly call Douglas Emhoff the second gentleman of the United States, right? But the first also sounds wrong... KarlFrei (talk) 10:14, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

It will likely be Second Gentleman of the United States or Second Spouse of the United States. GoodDay (talk) 18:21, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

The Emhoff article does say "...would become the first second gentleman of the United States" and links to here. | MK17b | (talk) 04:32, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Would the title of this page change (especially if we get a call shortly)? | MK17b | (talk) 05:55, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

I think it should change to "second lady or gentleman of the united states", which is already used in the table headers. I think using the gender-neutral "spouse" doesn't make sense since the phrase "second spouse" is not actually in widespread use, whereas the two gendered terms are. I propose we move it already. --MartinoK (talk) 10:06, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Discussion about First Lady and Second Gentleman-designate titles in infoboxes of Jill Biden and Doug Emhoff

Please join a discussion here regarding whether the terms "First Lady of the United States Designate" and "Second Gentleman of the United States Designate" should be in the infoboxes of Jill Biden and Doug Emhoff, spouses of the president-elect and vice president-elect, respectively. We need to come to a consensus. Thank you for your participation. cookie monster (2020) 755 21:08, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Other spouses of U.S. vice presidents

The formatting of the "other spouses" section leaves a lot to be desired, in my opinion. The main problem is that the entire section is written from the perspective of the vice presidents themselves, rather than that of the ostensible section topic, their spouses. For example, I would suggest that the three headings "Nine U.S. vice presidents were widowed prior to their vice presidencies," "Five U.S. vice presidents were widowed and remarried prior to their vice presidencies," and "One U.S. vice president was widowed before his vice presidency and remarried during his vice presidency" should be rewritten as "Fifteen women died while married to future U.S. vice presidents." Possibly, it could go on to say "and thus were deceased when their widowers took office." Because, for these women, it doesn't make their own status with respect to the title of Second Lady any different if, after their death, their widower remarried before or during his term of office, or never remarried. I'd similarly rewrite the descriptions for Mary Rockefeller (was divorced from a future VP before his term) and the women who married ex-VPs after their terms. And I would also rewrite each individual entry to focus on the spouse, not the vice president, and to give context for the dates given. For example, I'd change "Thomas Jefferson was married to Martha Wayles from 1772 until her death in 1782" to "Martha Wayles was married to Thomas Jefferson from 1772 until her death in 1782. His vice presidency began in 1797." Does anyone object to these changes? If you agree that this problem exists, but don't like this approach, can you suggest a different one? --DavidK93 (talk) 07:08, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Second Gentleman is twitter verified

I know there has been talk about whether Emhoff will use the title "Second Gentleman" or some other styling. It appears there is now a verified twitter account for Second Gentleman.[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Knope7 (talk • contribs) 04:17, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Page move

Changing the article title, could wait until January 20, 2021. GoodDay (talk) 20:42, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

it’s ok. the similar than indonesia and the philippines. Taufik Keimas (husband of former pres. megawati soekarnoputri) and Jose Miguel Arroyo (husband of former pres. gloria macapagal arroyo). Akuindo (talk) 07:49, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

• See discussion above at #In the event of a Female VP. OCNative (talk) 06:54, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Article Title

I think "Second Spouse of the United States" would be a better and more correct title for this article. Peter Ormond (talk) 17:08, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

• See discussion above at #In the event of a Female VP. OCNative (talk) 17:10, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Make the title singular

It's highly unusual that this article's title is plural. No other article about the position of a person is named like this. We have "First Lady of the United States" not "First Ladies of the United States", we have "President of the United States" not "Presidents of the United States" and we had "Second Lady of the United States" not "Second Ladies of the United States". The title should be changed from "Second Ladies and Gentlemen of the United States" to "Second Lady or Gentleman of the United States". PBZE (talk) 18:58, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

• That's not accurate. It's actually very common for gendered titles and follows precedent. See discussion above at #In the event of a Female VP for a lengthy list. OCNative (talk) 19:21, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

Rename Title of page to "Second Spouse of the United States."

Would renaming it to "Second Spouse of the United States" make more sense and also shorten and unnecessarily long existing title to cover both instances?

Just my thoughts.

Golfpecks256 (talk) 20:31, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

• Strongly support --Midrashah (talk) 20:41, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

•  Administrator note I think what we're doing is directing all vote-like comments to the #In the event of a Female VP section above. The discussion is fairly evenly balanced with no overwhelming consensus at this time, so more input would be good. Alternatively a proper new WP:RM procedure should be initiated. P.S. I've protected the page from moves for a while, as this page was going to be continually moving all over the place. It's not an endorsement of the current title. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 20:51, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

It should and least be proper English. "Second Ladies and Gentleman of the United States."

"Currently in role" vs "in role"

@Adavidb: "In role" alone is ambiguous because it doesn't convey that he is the current holder of the role. "In role" can just as easily refer to someone previously in the role; it's the label used on past holders' terms in their infoboxes, such as at Melania Trump. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 22:02, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

I disagree with this logic. The date (since January 20) immediately follows, which should immediatly remove anyone's misunderstanding that it applies to some former role holder. —ADavidB 22:06, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Adavidb, it's sloppy wording. The infobox on this page is about the office itself. We could just as easily have a picture of the inaugural holder; the bold text immediately below should communicate we're talking about the current holder, akin to using "incumbent" instead of simply "in office" for a political position. "Currently in role" has been in use at First Lady of the United States for a pretty long time. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 22:11, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Please see MOS:CURRENTLY. —ADavidB 22:23, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Adavidb, MOS:CURRENTLY is about avoiding statements that are likely to become outdated. No matter how we phrase this, it will become outdated when Emhoff no longer holds the role. Therefore, MOS:CURRENTLY doesn't really apply. ― Tartan357 ^Talk 22:28, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Excessive capitalization in article title

The "ladies and gentlemen" part of the article title should be lower case per MOS:JOBTITLES and virtually ever style guide in the world (including The Chicago Manual of Style, AP Stylebook, and Oxford Style Guide). Surtsicna (talk) 14:33, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Problem is First Lady of the United States, is capitalised. GoodDay (talk) 15:53, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, but the plural form should not be per MOS:JOBTITLES. Neither the singular nor the plural form should be capitalized per the cited style guides. Surtsicna (talk) 16:06, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

I would've had this article re-named Second Gentleman of the United States, while the veeps' spouse is male & then returned to Second Lady of the United States, when the veeps' spouse is female. GoodDay (talk) 16:53, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Surname inconsistency?

In the list, all the Second Spouses up through Elizabeth Virginia "Bess" Wallace (aka Bess Truman) are listed with their birth names, while Elizabeth Rucker Barkley onward are listed with their married names. This is a strange inconsistency. The individual pages for the spouses listed by their birth names are named with the married name (e.g. the text "Abigail Smith" links to the page named "Abigail Adams"). In at least the few cases I checked, the name in the list isn't even a redirect to the FLOTUS (e.g. the page Abigail Smith is about a marine scientist, with a link at the top to Abigail Adams Smith, the daughter of the second president; the page Letitia Green doesn't exist, though the top search result is correctly for Letitia Stevenson).

It seems to me that the name in the list should be the name the person went by when they were Second Lady/Gentleman, or maybe their name at their death. The page List of first ladies of the United States has it this way. If there is some reason for them to be listed with their birth names, it should at least be consistent. - OwlBus (talk) 23:13, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

I did some more digging - it seems that prior to 24 January 2017, the names were styled like "Abigail Adams (nee Smith)", and then a user changed them all to the style of "Abigail Smith", all the way to "Karen Sue Batten". They stayed that way until 30 December 2020 when a user (Aricmfergie) changed the most recent however-many to "Karen Batten Pence" and similar. I propose changing the rest of them as Aricmfergie started. - OwlBus (talk) 23:36, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

I'd actually prefer to see it the way it was before 2017, with the name mainly given as the person was actually known. But, certainly, formatting it with the maiden and married surnames like you've suggested is much better than it is now; I do not like the current format of exclusively the maiden name written, yet linking to the correct text of the individual's article title. That's just weird. --DavidK93 (talk) 04:54, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

I think we're actually suggesting it the same way - I think it should be "Abigail Adams" etc. - most of the time matching the individual's article title or the way they're named in the first sentence of that article (e.g. writing out "Douglas Craig Emhoff" even though the article is Doug Emhoff because that's how the article starts). Unless you're suggesting that the maiden name be included, a la "Abigail Adams (née Smith)" or "Karen Sue Pence (née Batten)" - which probably makes more sense, given that I can't find any evidence that she uses "Batten" as a middle name. Or simply "Karen Sue Pence" or even just "Karen Pence". -- OwlBus (talk) 06:42, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

OwlBus, my preferred format would be "Karen Pence (née Batten)". First, we give her name as in the agreed-upon-common-name article title for the individual. Then we give her maiden name, in a way that clearly shows "this is a piece of information provided by this chart in a Wikipedia article," rather than suggesting "this is the name this person uses or used." --DavidK93 (talk) 22:25, 29 January 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I've standardized it to "Karen Pence (née Karen Sue Batten)" - which is a little long but as I went though there were some times when it seemed like the person had used a bunch of different middle names. I defaulted to making the un-parenthesized part match the title of the person's page, or sometimes match the way it's phrased in the first line of the article. Someone had already updated many of the recent second ladies (e.g. Karen Batten had been changed to Karen Batten Pence - I changed those just so they would be consistent across the whole list. OwlBus (talk) 18:31, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 31 January 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. (non-admin closure) Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 19:16, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

---

Second Ladies and Gentlemen of the United States → Second ladies and second gentlemen of the United States – Lowercase plural per MOS:JOBTITLES, the RM at Talk:List of presidents of the United States, and similar recent RMs of about two years ago. Also adding another "second" for clarity. — BarrelProof (talk) 20:37, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

• Support. There is no reason to capitalize those words. They should be lower case per MOS:JOBTITLES, The Chicago Manual of Style, AP Stylebook, etc. Surtsicna (talk) 20:41, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - Instead, move it to Second Gentleman of the United States, we can always change it back to Second Lady of the United States, whenever the spouse is female, again. Note: We have First Lady of the United States. -- GoodDay (talk) 20:46, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

This article discusses ladies and gentlemen. —Eyer (he/him) If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message. 21:00, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

That would not be half bad. We already have Princess of Asturias, which used to be Prince of Asturias. Surtsicna (talk) 21:23, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree that's not a bad idea. After all I presume we do the same thing with articles like God Save the Queen. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:02, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support. —Eyer (he/him) If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message. 20:59, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Not, when we have First Lady of the United States. Honestly, pushing lower-casing on article titles, is pushing a bit too far. GoodDay (talk) 21:04, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Article titles are supposed to be in sentence case, i.e. lower case by default. See WP:TITLEFORMAT. MOS:JOBTITLES also says that any job titles in plural should be lower case. Surtsicna (talk) 21:22, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Then have the article title as Second Gentleman of the United States. As mentioned above, we can always change it per gender. GoodDay (talk) 21:44, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose. This article should have been nominated with the other "First Lady and Gentlemen of..." articles en masse to avoid repeating this process all over again. The second "second" is also redundant. Showiecz (talk) 21:28, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. I agree with GoodDay. Rushtheeditor (talk 6:14, 31 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support BarrelProof's proposal to change the title per MOS:JOBTITLES, pending further discussion on the "First Lady and Gentlemen of" pages. Oppose GoodDay's proposal of setting the precedent of moving the article back and forth everytime the gender of the U.S. vice president's spouse changes. It works for something like God Save the Queen, where a monarch like Elizabeth II can sit on the throne for a number of decades, and therefore the article title is fairly stable for many years. But I don't think it would work on this and the other articles in Category:Lists of spouses of national leaders in terms of consistency where terms can be relatively short. Zzyzx11 (talk) 01:55, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Barring the unexpected, the change would occur only every 4 or 8 years. So changing the title back-and-forth, isn't a bad idea. GoodDay (talk) 03:23, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Are you suggesting "Second Gentleman of the United States" (singular)? If so, I can get behind that. —Eyer (he/him) If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message. 03:26, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes. GoodDay (talk) 03:29, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

WP:OSE, still oppose the idea. Again this is a total different matter than God Save the Queen. The article is about the role and lists all of the previous spouses of the U.S. VP, not just the current one. Would rather be consistent with several of the articles in Category:Lists of spouses of national leaders and have a stable gender-neutral title like Spouse of the prime minister of Australia and Spouse of the vice president of India instead of moving this page back and forth (even if only 4 or 8 years). Zzyzx11 (talk) 04:35, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Why did you ask for an explanation, claim you agreed, then now disagree? GoodDay (talk) 21:56, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

I think you may be mixing up my comments with User:Eyer's. I was the one who first wrote that I was opposing your proposal at 01:55, 1 February 2021, then the "still oppose the idea" comment at 04:35, 2 February 2021. User:Eyer was the one asking for an explanation and "I can get behind that" at 03:26, 1 February 2021. Zzyzx11 (talk) 06:28, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support move to Second Gentleman of the United States. Showiecz (talk) 12:23, 1 February 2021 (UTC)
• Neutral on the capitalisation. Oppose move to Second Gentleman of the United States, as the article is about the role of Second Lady/Gentleman of the United States, not just the current spouse of the VP. GreenComputer (talk) 22:53, 1 February 2021 (UTC)

We can always change it back to Second Lady of the United States, when the veep spouse is female. GoodDay (talk) 18:58, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

• Neutral on BarrelProof's proposal. But Oppose GoodDay's proposal (to move it back and forth, and have the title only apply to part of the list at a time.) Paintspot Infez (talk) 21:53, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Changing it back & forth would occur only at least every 4 years. GoodDay (talk) 21:54, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

Just leave it as it is. It looks fine and it’s still correct, is it not? Josepy35 (talk) 03:17, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

It is not. Capitalizing common nouns is against just about every English language style guide in the world. Surtsicna (talk) 09:48, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Well then all the articles such as First Ladies and Gentlemen of India are wrong? It's fine and I oppose any change to the article. Rushtheeditor (talk) 09:46, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, they are wrong and no, it is not fine. Please take a moment to read WP:JOBTITLES or any other English language style guide. We are not suppose to capitalize as we please. Surtsicna (talk) 15:16, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

• Neutral: Why not First Spouse of the United States? Paul Vaurie (talk) 23:08, 3 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose: Keep the capitalization. Articles about political positions or roles are capitalized, for example, Vice President of the United States or White House Chief of Staff. Before January 2021, the article's title was Second Lady of the United States. To accommodate the new Second Gentleman, the article's title was change to First Ladies and Gentlemen of the United States. It should not lose it's capitalization over an accommodation. Dash9Z (talk) 07:47, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
  • Those other examples are singular. This one is plural. — BarrelProof (talk) 04:44, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
• Support. No reason to capitalize those words per MOS:JOBTITLES. MB 15:01, 5 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Move - Per User Dash9Z's points above. Scanlan (talk) 16:37, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
• Comment – why not make it a singular title (like First Lady of the United States is) instead of a plural title? How about Second Lady and Gentleman of the United States? Since it is a singular title and would be consistent with First Lady of the United States. cookie monster (2020) 755 04:09, 8 February 2021 (UTC)
• Rename to Second Spouse of the United States. Specific title held by one person at a time, so should be capitalised. No need for it to be plural. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:05, 8 February 2021 (UTC)

That would be original research. GoodDay (talk) 13:50, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose The letters need to remain capitalized per WP:TITLECON as that's the format used for other offices / positions. Instead, we could move it to Second Spouse of the United States, or to Second Gentleman of the United States for now and revert it back to Second Lady once the VP's spouse is female again. Keivan.f^Talk 07:03, 10 February 2021 (UTC)
• Comment: This article is about all the second spouses, not the current one alone, and it should not be named based on the current role holder. —ADavidB 07:28, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose – I don’t have a preference on the capitalization, however this is about the article of the spouse of the Vice President of the United States. Why not just move this article to the Spouse of the Vice President of the United States and make redirects for second lady and second gentleman to redirect to this page? Corky 01:37, 16 February 2021 (UTC)
• Strong oppose for both capitalization and repeating of "second", in fact I think it should be changed to "Second Lady and Gentleman of the United States", if we change the title to the proposal we have to move every "first lady" and "second lady" articles which is a lot to move. They misinterpreted MOS:JOBTITLES which talks about and gives examples of sentences on the article rather than the article title itself. PyroFloe (talk) 04:22, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

---

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The?

An editor seems determined to start the opening sentence with "The", listing re-insertion as a 'typo' correction in the edit summary. As recently written, the subject of the sentence is the title, not the person. "The" is not part of the informal title, so I removed it. Can we get some discussion on this, leading to a resolution? —ADavidB 13:24, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

In the event of a Female VP

In the event of a Biden win in the presidential race, what would be the appropriate title for this page given that the role may also be "Second Gentleman of the US"? A second page? | MK17b | (talk) 18:37, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

• This is jumping the gun; if Biden/Harris wins, there will be coverage of the exact title to be used, but the article won't need to be updated until inauguration. Assuming that "Second Gentleman" is the title, there's plenty of Wikipedia precedent for having a combined Second Ladies and Gentlemen of the United States, per Second ladies and gentlemen of India, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Texas, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Puerto Rico, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Pakistan, etc. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 20:51, 5 November 2020 (UTC)

• I think the combined title is the best option since they will be holding the same position. Lsw2472 (talk) 03:56, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

• Comment - Bad title for this section/discussion. A "Female VP" does not necessarily mean there is not a "First Lady of the United States." Suggest changing it to something that focuses on the person in this position. -- Fuzheado | Talk 17:57, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

• Spouse is more future proof since it deals with the issue of an NB second spouse. On the other hand if Second Ladies and Gentlemen is what we've gone with before perhaps we should stick with that.©Geni (talk) 17:59, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support "Second Ladies and Gentlemen of the United States". I can see the argument for "spouse", but that should be made at a wider forum so that the pages can be renamed in sync. For now, let's stick with precedent. I do think that "ladies and gentlemen" communicates something about the formality of the position that would be lost by just "spouse". {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:47, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
• Wait We need to see what will be adopted as a WP:COMMONNAME; Harris will probably make a choice and the media will follow suite.--Jasper Deng (talk) 20:14, 7 November 2020 (UTC)
  • Agreed, I see a real risk here that whatever is in this article will influence what title is used (rather than the other way around), so I would argue for at the very least staying non-committal and possibly not listing any kind of gender-neutral or male term until the debate is settled. TJollans (talk) 10:44, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• I support title "Second Spouse of the United States, it maintains gender neutrality and will be inclusive to both the incoming Second Gentleman and the previous Second Ladies AvRand (talk) 00:27, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• Support per Sdkb. P,TO 19104 (talk) (contribs) 02:08, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• Comment We also need to consider the case of Category:Second Ladies of the United States. SYSS Mouse (talk) 03:49, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• Comment Consider Second Lord of the United States. As Lady and Lord are equivalent. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Haveanimpact (talk • contribs) 07:45, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• Support "Second Ladies and Gentleman - to be changed to gentlemen once there's been more than one. This is assuming that he takes this title... it should reflect whatever title he does take. I vote Second Lord, personally. Firejuggler86 (talk) 15:19, 8 November 2020 (UTC)

• Support Spouse of the vice president of the United States - I think to follow the precedent of Spouse of the prime minister of the United Kingdom, I think this is a good title to use. Interstellarity (talk) 22:50, 8 November 2020 (UTC)
  • That isn't an applicable precedent because the UK Prime Minister's spouse doesn't have a particular title while the US Vice President's spouse is titled as either the Second Lady or the Second Gentleman. OCNative (talk) 18:27, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
• Wait per Jasper Deng and do not be impatient. It may take another half year before it is clear what the common name is. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:25, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
• Wait for matters to unfold. Oculi (talk) 16:03, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
• Comment, change the article title to Second Spouse of the United States when the time comes. Then change the infobox title to read "Second Gentleman" (which is already the common title in the U.S. for husbands of governors). When the time comes that the second spouse is a woman again, keep the article title gender-neutral, but change the infobox back to "Second Lady". This follows a similar logic to HM Treasury, the article title is gender-neutral, while the infobox spells out "Her Majesty" (this will change to "His Majesty" at some point in the future). By the way, I think the same thing will eventually have to be done to the First Lady article too, but this isn't an issue yet of course.--Woko Sapien (talk) 18:02, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
• Change to category:Second Ladies and Gentlement of the United States. I think we have adequate precendent to show this is the accepted form.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:15, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
• Move to Second Spouse of the United States. This ensures the article title will remain gender-neutral, regardless of whether the VP is a man or woman (or gay, etc...). And, as noted, if the US ever elects a female President (or if Kamala assumes the office at some point in 2021-2025 if Biden dies or resigns or is impeached, etc...), the First Lady article can be looked at, too. Canuck^{89 (Talk to me)} 06:35, November 11, 2020 (UTC)
• Move to Second Ladies and Gentleman of the United States since not all second ladies/gentleman might not be the spouse of the VP. cookie monster (2020) 755 19:15, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
• Support for Spouse of the vice president of the United States – The precedent for this is based on the many articles entitled, "Spouse of the prime minister of..." However, I would not oppose "Second Spouse of the United States" or at least presenting additional titles in the lead. For example, the lead could state:

The spouse of the vice president of the United States, alternatively referred to as the second lady, second gentleman, or second spouse...

Jay Coop · Talk · Contributions 05:01, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

• That isn't an applicable precedent because Prime Minister's spouses don't have a particular title while the U.S. Vice President's spouse is titled as either the Second Lady or the Second Gentleman. OCNative (talk) 18:27, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

• Support Spouse of the vice president of the United States: Per Spouse of the prime minister of the United Kingdom. --TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 13:50, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
• Strong Support and NO STALLING Better direction is to split article for "Second Gentleman of the United States" on Wikipedia. There good amount of evidence. This should be done now despite the claims of voter fruads or voting machine glitches by President Donald Trump. Joe BIde/Harris won. Kent Bargo (talk) 08:23, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
• Support "Second Ladies and Gentlemen of the United States" because this is the standard convention on Wikipedia, as shown with 6 states (First Ladies and Gentlemen of Alaska, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Kansas, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Montana, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Oklahoma, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Oregon, and First Ladies and Gentlemen of Texas), 2 territories (First Ladies and Gentlemen of Guam and First Ladies and Gentlemen of Puerto Rico), and 15 other countries (First Ladies and Gentlemen of Argentina, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Bolivia, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Costa Rica, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Ecuador, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Georgia, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Haiti, First Ladies and Gentlemen of India, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Kyrgyzstan, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Lithuania, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Malawi, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Malta, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Mauritius, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Pakistan, First Ladies and Gentlemen of Panama, and First Ladies and Gentlemen of Singapore). OCNative (talk) 06:53, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support "Second Ladies and Gentlemen of the United States": In the case of the First Lady, the holder of the title was not always the spouse of the sitting President. Therefore the "First/Second Spouse" designation wouldn't apply to all those who were First Lady in the past. $\color {blue}\chi$_chi (talk) 17:40, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support "Second Ladies and Gentlemen of the United States": clear precedent established by other articles (U.S. states and internationally), as described above.
• Comment: If there is a decision to move towards a gender neutral alternative, there ought to be a wider discussion across the rest of these articles, in order to guarantee consistency. Willwal1 (talk) 20:59, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support of Second Spouse of the United states'--Midrashah (talk) 21:24, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

• Support of Second Spouse of the United States Golfpecks256 (talk) 02:10, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

• Support of Second Spouse of the United States -Navarre0107 (talk) 03:06, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support Second Spouse of the United States --Tserton (talk) 03:34, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
• Comment Both recommendations have issues. Second Ladies and Gentlemen does not apply if we have a non-binary person in the role, and Second Spouse does not apply if they were not married. So far, all have been married (and binary), but there have been US First Ladies that were not married. This leaves us with weird choices like Second Partner to be future proof, which is a term I don't think anyone uses. I don't feel strongly enough to vote one way or the other. TarkusAB^talk/contrib 04:50, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
  • In the event of a non-binary person taking on this role, we will follow the designation that will be commonly use, and we will reassess the naming of the article, just as we are doing it now that a male took on the role. It is not necessary to be future-proof, but it is imperative that the name of the article covers all those who actually are concerned. Since First/Second Spouse doesn't cover those who were not married, the better alternative is First/Second Ladies and Gentlemen. $\color {blue}\chi$_chi (talk) 15:33, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

• Support of Second Spouse of the United states –SmartyPants22 (talk) 16:11, 21 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support of Second Spouse of the United States: While it's true there have been several First Ladies who were relatives, not spouses, this hasn't happened in the case of Second Ladies (and given the arc of history we're on now, it seems unlikely that a future unmarried vice president would keep a random niece/nephew around to take care of the house and entertaining?) Second Spouse is gender neutral and applies to all the current and historical spouses on the page. Mayawagon (talk) 18:10, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

• Support of Second Spouse of the United States Student of Sci&Life (talk) 21:08, 29 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support of Second Spouse of the United States Mhapperger (talk) 21:36, 7 June 2021 (UTC)

Julia Chinn

I'm busy today but she ought to be included. 100.6.59.95 (talk) 16:51, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Chinn is already included in the "Other spouses of U.S. vice presidents" section. —ADavidB 17:18, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:First Ladies and Gentlemen of Kansas which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:18, 13 December 2022 (UTC)