Talk:Sausage roll

Reversion of 4th August 2005

Part of my comment was swallowed, but I've removed the recipe as that'd be better put at the Wikibooks Cookbook. Also, the last paragraph was repitition. Darac Marjal 13:01, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Melbourne High School Link

Removed - really no reason for it to be there. skorpion 06:40, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Re: Sausage rolls must be disposed of in litter bins as (much like a bannana skin) they are easy to slip on.

This may well be the case - I'm no expert on sausage rolls after all - but is the above information appropriate for a Wikipedia entry? At the moment it is part of the article, but I am really not sure it should be. Cheers 81.156.154.15 17:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

I've removed it as I concur; there's really no need at all for this preposterous sentence to be here. As you say, it may well be the case, but it is irrelevant to a sausage roll in particular. A PBJ sandwich might prove equally hazardous; it doesn't mean we have to start putting health and safety warnings on its page. This may well have been vandalism; in any case, it was poorly written and badly spelled. --Greg 20:50, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

History

There is nowhere on the Internet I can find the history and origin of the Sausage Roll? Needs updating here by someone who knows... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mike40 (talk • contribs)

There are books too, you know :) Chevymontecarlo. 19:46, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Part of the world?

We have these as standard in bakeries in the UK. Do you have these in the United States? I thought the "bagel dog" would be the equivelent of a sausage roll over there. I'm pretty sure this originated over here.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.66.39.117 (talk) 16:54, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

This story: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-40392410 surfaced in June 2017. Trader Joe's “invented” the “Puff Dog” and were roundly derided on social media by outraged BRITONS. Mr Larrington (talk) 20:33, 8 March 2022 (UTC)

I live in Sweden and I've never seen a sausage roll. Maybe someone could edit in something like "commonly eaten in the United Kingdom" (and wherever else it's common). I think Wikipedia reveals its anglocentrism here - an article about, say, croissants, wouldn't fail to mention that they're a staple of french baking... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.82.40.149 (talk) 09:07, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I have lived in France and Spain and never seen any sausage rolls in either country. Nor in any of the many other European countries I have visited. They seem to mainly be a British thing.

Joke?

"A more gourmet version of the sausage roll is made by using some variety of sausage or frankfurter as the filling. When the filling consists of beef fillet the dish is known as "Beef Wellington"."

That para is a joke, right?Randal Oulton (talk) 21:18, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Would it be better to describe the Beef Wellington as a similar dish that uses a beef fillet? ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:11, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

It would be better not to mention Beef Wellington at all. The only similarity it shares with sausage roll is the fact that it is wrapped in puff pastry. It would be like describing lasagne as "similar" to bolognese because they both contain a meat ragù sauce, or the similarity between a sausage roll and a pain au chocolat. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:55, 9 March 2022 (UTC)

Sales

I fear a political point is being made here. What do others think? Paul MacDermott (talk) 19:44, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Copy

June 2017. The American company "Trader Joe's" claims to have invented the all new "Puff Dogs", which are exactly the same as sausage rolls. (5.8.185.113 (talk) 03:44, 26 June 2017 (UTC))

They are not "exactly the same" as sausage rolls. They are made with uncured beef hot dogs, rather than pork sausagemeat. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:42, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

See also

@Scjessey: Stromboli (food) is fairly similar to sausage rolls. Bread or pizza dough wrapped around either sausage or pepperoni with cheese most of the time. The picture on the stromboli article just does not do it justice. You should give one a try sometime. PackMecEng (talk) 15:48, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

I have indeed eaten stromboli. Living in Pennsylvania, it is hard to avoid it! And while it is visually similar, there the similarity ends. Sausage rolls are made with puff pastry and mild sausage. Texture and taste are completely different. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:41, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

I have to give one a shot someday and see what you mean. I figured construction was similar enough for a see also. PackMecEng (talk) 22:42, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Stromboli or sausage roll? -- Scjessey (talk) 22:45, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

Sausage roll, they have some fantastic stromboli here in Chicago. PackMecEng (talk) 00:01, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

It's really easy to make as long as you can find really mild sausagemeat (or use ground pork with a little seasoning). In the US, I use Jimmy Dean's "Country Mild" sausagemeat, which you can get in Walmart. Other than that, all you need is store-bought puff pastry, a bit of flour for working the pastry, and a little beaten egg to seal the edges and make the pastry golden. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:48, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

I'll give it a shot. Thanks! PackMecEng (talk) 19:50, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Vegetarian

Recently, some editors have been trying to add unsourced information about "vegetarian" sausage rolls to the article (example diff). This has evidently arisen because of some protest by right wing extremists in the UK at a bakery. I am of the view that these alternatives are separate food items, and that if they are notable enough they should have their own article, but otherwise don't belong here. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:41, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

We have the article Vegetarian hot dog so it's a feasible idea to have a separate article for vegetarian/vegan sausage rolls as well. There's plenty of sources about them thanks to their recent launch by the bakery chain. I'm presuming that as well as the non-meat filling the pastry of a vegetarian or vegan sausage roll would be glazed in something other than egg or milk before cooking. This is Paul (talk) 19:07, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

That would mean that the only common element would be puff pastry. They aren't really related to sausage rolls at all, and so mentioning them in this article would be inappropriate and confusing for readers. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:03, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

ok I've created Meat free sausage roll, choosing that term rather than vegetarian or vegan as it covers everything. It's a very basic article based largely on the layout of this one, so please feel free to help improve it, and any help expanding it would be appreciated. Hopefully the article won't meet the same kind of resistance as the recently launched product did. This is Paul (talk) 23:26, 8 January 2019 (UTC)

Honestly, it doesn't make sense to me to call it a "meat free sausage roll". It's a "meat free pastry roll" if anything, because it doesn't have sausage in it. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:23, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

Without seeing this thread I'd worked the see-also vegetarian link into the article, and had it reverted by User:Scjessey as "not worthy of promotion to the body of the text". Why not? All comparable food articles (sausage itself, hot dog, haggis, even bacon) mention the existence of vegetarian alternatives. --Lord Belbury (talk) 08:06, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Several reasons, but chiefly because it is a UK-specific thing that isn't at all notable. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:45, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

That it has its own full article means that Wikipedia considers it notable, and something being specific to a region isn't a reason not to write about it. Although I think it'd be wrong to claim that vegetarian sausage rolls were specific to the UK (or to imply that Greggs invented them five minutes ago): it's not a rare or recent breakthrough for a vegetarian-minded cook to consider replacing sausage meat with a vegetarian mince equivalent, in some pastry, in any country where sausage rolls exist. --Lord Belbury (talk) 19:43, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

I think this BBC Food recipe probably predates anything Greggs did. It just happens to be that Greggs brought them to public attention. Also I would imagine wherever there are sausage rolls (other countries apart from the UK have them) you'll probably find Meat free sausage rolls as an alternative. Finally I'm quite surprised to see egg included in the recipe since I thought eggs would be a definite no for any self-respecting vegetarian. This is Paul (talk) 19:58, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

I partake of the flesh, so you're asking the wrong guy. I'm of the opinion that anything that isn't a sausage roll made with sausage meat shouldn't have "sausage" in the name. Egg, by the way, is simply brushed on the pastry to seal it and make it crisp up a bit, so I imagine there's some sort of veggie alternative. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:06, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Here's a 1980s US cookbook that includes a recipe for them, it's certainly not a new or obscure idea. And vegetarians eat eggs. The question is whether this article should mention in passing the existence of a common vegetarian alternative, in the same way that similar meat dish articles do. --Lord Belbury (talk) 20:17, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

I'm also of the opinion that a sausage isn't really a proper sausage unless it contains meat, but I've no objection to a vegetarian sausage having the name sausage somewhere in its title, though it should be distinguished as a meat free/vegetarian/vegan sausage rather than a sausage. It's something different after all. On egg alternatives, I just had a look out of curiosity. From this site comes the following: "The best egg wash substitute is milk. You can also use custard and water, melted butter, olive oil, honey, maple syrup, yogurt, and vegan options like soy or almond milk." This is Paul (talk) 20:20, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

If we think the linked article title needs discussion, that can happen at Talk:Meat free sausage roll. I'm trying to get some feedback on whether or not to move this particular "See also" link into the body of the article. --Lord Belbury (talk) 08:27, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

Well I suppose whether we include mention of it in the text or the see also section discussion depends on whether or not the meat free version can be given the name sausage. People make vegetarian alternatives to sausages and call them sausages so I've no objection to it being included in the article with a source. We have done that with other articles after all. This is Paul (talk) 21:17, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

I think the "see also" section is the best place for it, along with the other things that are loosely related, but I think they are sufficiently distinct from the real thing to not be in the body of the article. Incidentally, I see there are also Kosher sausage rolls now (presumably using beef). -- Scjessey (talk) 11:32, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

I would say that the two concepts of "sausage roll" and "vegetarian sausage roll" were very closely related. As I noted above, many other meat articles include a short paragraph about vegetarian versions - including bacon, where the vegetarian equivalent literally has no ingredients in common. --Lord Belbury (talk) 11:46, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Again, "vegetarian sausage" isn't actually a thing. But at this point, I concede that reliable sources are shifting consensus a bit. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:30, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

This is another weird discussion. It sounds like the Glamorgan sausage has been generally without meat (but with cheese) since at least WW2 and called a sausage all that time. Not used in sausage rolls of course, but for the wider sausage point, it seems this isn't even just a UK centric POV, at best it's actually a English centric POV. But even that doesn't seem accurate, since it sounds like plenty of English people are aware of them and call them sausages [1].

P.S. The UK specific bit about vegetarian sausages rolls is also weird. Vegetarian sausage rolls definitely aren't UK specific. This for example is apparently from a 2015 NZ cook book i.e. long before anything some UK company did in 2019 [2]. But frankly, I made sausage rolls with tofu or maybe it was paneer circa 2010 as an experiment (to be clear I'm not vegetarian) and suspect I was probably at least 50 years too late. Further as I illustrated below, if this article claims sausage rolls must contain pork that at best seems to be a UK POV anyway.

It's not like vegetarians didn't exist until recently, or the concept is so unusual no one would have though of it. (In NZ, besides Sanitarium Health and Wellbeing Company and other Christian vegetarianism cases, there has always been a fair amount of migration from South Asia particular India in recent decades, with Hinduism being the fastest growing religion in the recent census. And a number of them practice vegetarianism at least part of the time, the Auckland Diwali Festival for example is completely vegetarian. While most of the food sold there is some variety of South Asian food and I've never seen anything sausage roll like sold although I'm not exactly looking out for such food, I would find it very surprising if no one of South Asian descent in NZ has ever tried to make a vegetarian sausage roll like food independently and even sold it at bakery or food cart, or at least fund-raising event.)

Of course there's always going to be some disagreement about what to call such products e.g. [3] as well as how similar they have to be in taste and texture to call them sausage rolls assuming you do. But you always get such disagreements, again as the pork vs beef argument shows. It isn't even one sided as some strict vegans are also unhappy about associating stuff they eat with meat or animal products.

Note that I make no comment on whether this article should cover vegetarian sausage rolls, but do think it should link to the sub article if it exists.

Nil Einne (talk) 11:22, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

Saucijzenbroodje

Is this (and the German Münsterländer Wurstbrötchen) the exact same thing as a sausage roll or somehow different? I was following User:Melvinvk's lead and going by the Dutch and German articles linked in the sidebar, which doesn't describe them as being any different from British sausage rolls. We're even using a photo of a saucijzenbroodje to illustrate this article. (The Czech Klobásník, by contrast, looks very different.) --Lord Belbury (talk) 12:59, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

@Lord Belbury: The Dutch and German recipes do not exclusively use sausage. In fact, they are usually made with beef. Also, the former is spiced and the latter is curried. They are superficially similar to sausage rolls, but they most certainly are not sausage rolls. The saucijzenbroodje image is relatively recent and arguably shouldn't be in there. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:12, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

UTC)

@Lord Belbury:@Scjessey:I've know idea how similar these pastries are, but the dutch one is made of of spiced minced meat. Slightly different then the sausage meat in the sausage rolls. However I doubt how different these pastries are, because sausage are also made of minced meat. I added iformation about the saucijzenbroodje because the dutch article was linked here and didn't state anything about it, for a matter of fact it stated the information like the whole sausage roll is only a thing in English speaking nations.

I guess it's almost impossible to say which variant was invented first because good sources from around the early eighteenhundreds are not to be found, however a saucijzenbroodje or saucijnbrood is mentioned a few times in literature dating from the 19th century.--Melvinvk (talk) 14:59, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

This article is specifically about sausage roll, not variants or related derivatives. They are made with unspiced pork sausagemeat and puff pastry. Recipes with spices, herbs, or other meats are not the sausage roll this article is describing. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:18, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

The History section already talks about Greek and French antecedents. A section describing some national variants and derivatives (the way Hamburger#Variations does) would definitely add to the article, I think, and help to emphasise what a "normal" sausage roll is - the lack of spices and the modern-day pork filling aren't explicitly mentioned here, for example. --Lord Belbury (talk) 16:10, 18 January 2020 (UTC)

I have no comment on whether those Dutch and such stuff should be covered here. But I don't understand the suggestion sausage rolls don't use beef. Here in NZ, a lot of the commercial sausage rolls seem to use beef. I think the classic sausage roll is more identified with pork (see e.g. [4]), still I've never seen a great debate that a sausage roll must use pork.

I gather the association of sausage rolls with beef is even stronger in Australia see e.g. [5] [6] [7] (look at the comments), [8], [9]. Actually I suspect the NZ commercial sausage roll situation is strongly influenced by the Aussie situation since a lot of products are made for both markets. Commercial chicken sausage rolls are also not uncommon although that is possibly a more recent thing.

I doubt that this is simply a case of those dang colonials not knowing what they're doing either. I'm fairly sure that 'sausage meat' has often been fairly ill-defined and while Mechanically separated meat and similar may be a more recent invention, putting whatever left over bits you have is not likely new. And more significantly, I doubt people 100 years ago before widespread refrigeration etc were thinking, "dang we have lots of beef but no pork, so no sausage rolls for us".

Actually I'd argue the article already has evidence against that. While I have not checked the source, it says "In 1894, a theft case provided further insights into the Victorian sausage roll production whereby the accused apprentice was taught to soak brown bread in red ochre, salt, and pepper to give the appearance of beef sausage for the filling.[7]". I'm not going to check the source but assuming it's accurate it seems unlikely whoever was behind this Victorian operation made such a basic error which would result in an obvious fail for their dastardly plan: "I dear say my good sir, this is the best sausage roll I've ever tasted, what. Pray tell me my good chap, why is this pork such an unusual colour? What did you do to it to give it such a great taste?" ..... "Say what? It's beef? How dare you insult my honour! You told me it was a sausage roll, and this is not a sausage roll! Her Majesty will hear of this, and it'll be off to the tower for you, my good fellow."

In any case, even if it is really true that no one in the past 100+ years in England would think a sausage roll can contain beef, I don't think it makes sense to keep this article for the English product only. There are clearly enough similarities that the NZ and Australian products should be covered as different varieties of the same thing.

Nil Einne (talk) 10:33, 11 March 2020 (UTC)

"Hong Kong" sausage roll

An IP editor keeps trying to push content into the article about a superficially similar foodstuff:

1. September 29 (reverted by ME per WP:OR)
2. September 29 (reverted by Materialscientist per WP:OR)
3. October 6 (reverted by Materialscientist per WP:OR)
4. October 6 (reverted by ME per WP:OR)
5. October 11 (reverted by ME per WP:OR)
6. October 20 (reverted by ME as a content disagreement per WP:BRD)

The IP editor has received WP:OR warnings and explanations on their talk pages. In the most recent edit, the IP editor claimed my reversion of this unrelated content was "vandalism". Since a reference of sorts (a recipe) was found by Lord Belbury, this is now more of a content dispute than an issue of original research. This so-called "Hong Kong" sausage roll uses neither of the two main constituents of sausage rolls, namely puff pastry and sausage meat. It apparently uses a pre-made sausage and then a bread roll is baked around it, making it resemble a hot dog. The reference Lord Belbury found does not establish any sort of notability for this foodstuff, and I would argue that just because it shares the same name as the subject, it should not be in the article. I would welcome the opinion of other editors. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:25, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

The article here has long listed a few "similar meat and pastry recipes" from other countries, and more detail about how similar they actually are seems like a welcome addition. Hamburger#Variations lists a lot of international variations which don't meet the baseline definition of "hamburger", but which are worth recording and comparing. We obviously have to draw the line somewhere, but sausage baked into rolled bread dough and apparently sold as a "sausage roll", and which some recipe sites call "Hong Kong-style sausage roll", would seem to fall on the side of inclusion, to me. --Lord Belbury (talk) 14:46, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

Then we need to find some kind of reference that indicates this "Hong Kong" style is notable. The reference that was found is a recipe, and does not satisfy this requirement. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:57, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Pop culture

I see this restoration and it got me thinking. I'm not a big fan of "pop culture" sections. They don't seem very encyclopedic and this one in particular seems a bit naff. Would anyone be in support of its total removal? -- Scjessey (talk) 22:07, 5 January 2022 (UTC)