Talk:SS Kiche Maru

Name of ship

Thanks to an interesting challenge from User:Mandsford, I'm trying to figure out what this ship's name is so we can expand the article. The obvious problem is that "che" is not really a syllable in Japanese. I have the strong feeling the well-meaning early 20th-century Anglophone sources mangled the name of this ship beyond repair. Here's a page [1] from Japan's Ministry of Land, Infrastructure, Transport, and Tourism which is clearly talking about the same incident, or at least a casualty of the same storm (same date, a ship sank with over a thousand dead --- scroll down to #4); however, the name given is うめが香丸 (alternatively, 梅ヶ香丸). Here's [2] a digitisation of a further newspaper article about that incident a month later, describing how a guy from Lloyd's of London came to investigate the sinking. Anyone have a clue what's going on here? cab (talk) 02:11, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't find anything about SS Kiche Maru. As for Umegaka I found this and looking at the list there's no ship similar to the name Kiche. But the Umegaka sinking had no casualty. The number was that of the Titanic, cab. Oda Mari (talk) 08:59, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Oops, brain's on holiday already. Will keep looking. BTW, this article claims the ship was sunk on the 22nd, but the sources say it was the 28th? cab (talk) 09:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

(copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan)

No entry at ja:海難事故. The only listing for 1912 is Titanic. The associated ja:Category:海難事故 has only two in the ki section; neither matches this. I didn't see anything in ja:吹雪 (春雨型駆逐艦) (Fubuki) and I don't see a Tachibana in ja:Category:日本の駆逐艦 (destroyers). Sorry Fg2 (talk) 07:06, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I found Fubuki and Tachibana in a "New York Times" article and added a citation to the article. Fg2 (talk) 03:54, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Can't find anything relevant in ja:1912年. Fg2 (talk) 07:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

EB has no entry for "Kiche"; Google Scholar for "Kiche Maru" has nothing relevant. Looked for "Kichi" in various searches (e.g. Kichi 1912) without success. Fg2 (talk) 08:24, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Fg2 (talk) 11:50, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

New York Times has seven hits for "shipwreck" during 1912. None even remotely relevant. No hits for "Kiche" in 20th century. Couldn't find anything by searching for "Kioko" or "Kiyoko" or "Maru". Fg2 (talk) 12:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

What sources say 28th? Both of the sources I provided said 22nd. There are more the Umegaka-related articles at Kobe Univ. library. From No.192 to 202 Happy New Year! Oda Mari (talk) 15:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The Dictionary of Nautical Literacy states that the date of the sinking was September 28, 1912. So does The Ocean Almanac and The World Almanac and Book of Facts. The date of September 22 appears to arise solely from speculation that these sources are all similarly mistaken and actually refer to the sinking of the Umegaka, which did occur on September 22 but with no casualties. If September 28 was the date of the putative sinking of the SS Kiche Maru, then the New York Times article and all of the other cited sources cannot refer to this same incident, because they predate it by a week or so. What seems most likely is that the "Almanac" and "Fact Book" type books simply copied and perpetuated some sort of incorrect information in the first one. At any rate, the facts cannot be accurate as they are stated in this article.76.102.81.104 (talk) 22:08, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Was there a ship named SS Kiche Maru?

Should we delete this article? Should we rename it to discuss one of the ships we know to have existed? Fg2 (talk) 01:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I would vote to delete. The facts as presented simply do not add up. I have found no evidence that the ship actually existed and that the disaster actually occurred.76.102.81.104 (talk) 22:08, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Links to significant information

Here are links to online information related to the typhoon of September 22, 1912:

• Robert McKenna, The Dictionary of Nautical Literacy, p193 (McGraw-Hill Professional, 2003) at Google Books (from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/SS Kiche Maru, edited)

• Hurricane Sweeps Japan, article in the New York Times, Thursday, September 26, 1912 (link to PDF)

• Ruin In Wake of Typhoon., article in the New York Times, Friday, September 27, 1912

• 3,130 were lost on the Provence, article in the New York Times in 1918, which refers to a ship that sank on September 28, 1912 as the Kicker Maru (from Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/SS Kiche Maru, edited)

• 日本の重大海難（海員懲戒法時代） (MLIT) (from above)

• 海事社会の沿革_海難審判庁ホームページ (MLIT) (from above)

• Marine Accident Inquiry Agency (MLIT) in English (under Contents, click 2. History and Other Major Events

• 義勇艦 Personal site has detail on Umegaka Maru (from above)

• デジタルアーカイブ - 新聞記事文庫 切抜帳一覧：海上保険 第1巻 (Kobe University Library site has links to information on Umegaka Maru) (from above)

Kiche Maru photographs

I did a Google search using this heading "photo of kiche maru" and only one ship consistent with a 1912 time frame keeps being listed in a series of five photos as follows: kiche 1

kiche 2

kiche 3

kiche 4

kiche 5

Now Im just speculating but I think we've found our ship. kiche 1 photo shows a two funnel passenger liner with mountains in background. Easily could be any harbor on the Honshu island. The women's attire of long hats & dresses are consistent with pre-1912 era. Other women in these photos have parasols consistent with Japanese culture of parasols. Writing on photo 1 has 'Riva Trigoso'. I researched this and found it was a town in Italy where ships were built(the Francatierri ship yards). The post card(?speculating) could be the ship in Japan but the mailer could've been vacationing in Italy or vice versa. It's still speculation. The other words on the kiche photo 1 after Riva Trigoso is unlegible. Anyone else wants to take a crack feel free. The flag flying on the back of the ship looks like the flag of Canada but the flag of Canada has one oakleaf. The flag on the ship has two of 'something'. The funnels look like the colors of ships sailing in Japan at the time but are missing a row of colors. Since this ship is not flying the colors primary to Japan at the time it gives me the notion that it was owned by another country and then purchased by a Japanese shipping line. Who knows though! I can't find any country that has that flag. It has to be proven that this is the ship. The different kiche photos 3-5 indicate the ship is being raised after having been toppled over. The same as the Kiche Maru. The ship in these photos looks to be in the 500 foot length. a pretty big ship at the time and easily could hold 1000 people. I do believe this is the Kiche but without further research such as more markings or info placing this ship here and also it's Italian links based on the writing on the photos I won't be sure. This disaster took place on the then far side of the world with no modern communications available(a typhoon) can knock out telegraphs. So it's not a surprise that it's nearly forgotten. But I put this info out there so that this mystery can be solved. Koplimek (talk) 02:53, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Koplimek, thank you for those photos. They appear in the article през месец Септември at a site in Bulgaria. The caption beneath the group of photos is "лайнер "Principessa Jolanda"." I can't read the document (perhaps it's in Bulgarian). But "Principessa Jolanda" appears to be the name of the ship. "Principessa" is Italian for "princess" (and many ships are named for princesses). Perhaps it's the contemporary Princess Yolanda of Savoy. Can anyone help? Fg2 (talk) 06:31, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Searching for Principessa Jolanda brings up this You Tube video made from the same photos. Many other sites mention its sinking at its launch. Fg2 (talk) 06:40, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I've written a two-sentence article about the Princess Yolanda, referencing a New York Times article. Fg2 (talk) 08:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

• • thanks Fg2, for this clear up. I ran into that Bulgarian page as I download the pics but did not scroll down far enough to discover the text. I was suspect a little as to the identity of this ship, mainly the stern flag & funnel colors being the give away. Japanese funnels are somewhat solid with one color. But I also know ships in those days changed hands quite often so I took a hunch and with photos of the ship lying submerged on her side my interests were further stirred. Still very sad what happened to Princess Yolanda at her launch. I wonder if she was scrapped or put into service. If she rolled over and sank at her launch that would seemingly indicate and equilibrium problem in her design wouldn't you say. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Koplimek (talk • contribs) 16:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks again for posting the photos. I'm skeptical about the Kiche so I'd really like to find photos of it. Regarding the Princess Yolanda, a lot of prospective passengers must have been astonished! The You Tube video said her engines were salvaged and reused, but otherwise she was left where she sank. Fg2 (talk) 20:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

How to resolve?

Per User:Dhartung's mention at WT:A about this fascinating dilemma, I'd like to suggest that resolution of discrepancies between sources is handled by stating both sources and then letting the reader draw the conclusion. Thus something would be added like "The Japanese Ministry of Land, Infrastructure and Transport did not include such a shipwreck in its list of maritime disasters, although it listed the sinking of the smaller Umegaka on September 22." It may be necessary to add further attribution like "The New York Times reported" also. Just throwing the suggestion out because the would seem to complete the balance required in the face of the unknown. JJB 19:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I think you're referring to this comment in this section. I think something similar to changing the article wording from factual statements like "was" to "was reported" is a good idea. You need to find some other articles that do this though, to check how they go about it. Literally changing everything to "reported" seems simplistic. I'm not sure I would go into detail about where the shipwreck information can't be found as I think you're then moving into original research territory (not sure on this though, perhaps something like "although limited/conflicting/scant/dubious information on the event/ship/wreck is available" instead?). On a side note I'll have one more dig around for the relevant text in the Proceedings of the United States Naval Institute reference and if I can't find it I'll remove it. Although I'm 99% sure I read a reference to the ship in the original Google books snippet, I can't find it when I look now. Ha! (talk) 15:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Name appears to be Keiko Maru

From research I've been able to do, it appears that the name of the ship was Keiko Maru.

• According to the ship’s page ($) at the Miramar Ship Index, there was a 1534-ton cargo ship named Keiko Maru that wrecked off Meisaki[sic] on 23 Sep 1912. It was built as Loyal at Howaldtswerke in Keil, Germany. It was launched in March 1892 and completed the following month. It was registered in Rotterdam and sailed for the Dutch shipping company Reederij "Neutraal" (punctuated as at Miramar), until 1895 when it was registered at Cologne under the auspices of Wahl & Co Rhederei u.Handels GmbH. The ship changed hands in 1910 and was renamed Keiko Maru, registered at Osaka, and sailed for K. Hashimoto.
• The 1912-1913 edition of Lloyd's register of shipping (online at HathiTrust.org, registration may be required) lists the ship under the name Keiko Maru and gives the former name as Loyal. Many other mechanical specs are listed.

— Bellhalla (talk) 20:34, 5 June 2015 (UTC)