Talk:Roman temple of Bziza

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:39, 15 September 2019 (UTC)

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The temple of Azizos in Bziza

• ... that the Roman temple of Bziza (pictured), dedicated to the semitic god Azizos, was converted to a church by the Byzantines? Jona Lendering, in Livius Lebanon and its provinces
  • ALT1:... that the Temple to Aziz (pictured) lent its name to the modern town of Bziza? [1]

• QPQ done

Created by Elie plus (talk). Self-nominated at 13:12, 4 September 2019 (UTC).

Detailed articles on excellent sources, French sources accepted AGF, no copyvio obvious. The image is licensed and shows well what it is about. I prefer the original hook. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:54, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Roman temple of Bziza/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Iazyges (talk · contribs) 17:13, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Criteria

GA Criteria
GA Criteria: 1 1.a  1.b  2 2.a  2.b  2.c  2.d  3 3.a  3.b  4 4.a  5 5.a  6 6.a  6.b

• No DAB links Y
• No dead links Y (Suggest using Wayback Machine to archive all the urls due to high dependence upon them for sources.)
• No missing citations Y

Prose Suggestions

Please note that all of these are suggestions, and can be implemented or ignored at your discretion.

Lede

• Suggest expanding lede with information, possibly from the history or architecture section; the bit about stamps could definitely be included in the lede. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:22, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Azizos

• and Monimos was equated with Hermes suggest mentioning a few of the domains of Hermes, as you did with Ares; possibly, and Monimos was equated with Hermes, the Greek god of traders and merchants.

History

• Roman hegemony over the region was still in the process of consolidation suggest Roman hegemony over the region was still being consolidated

Location and classification

• Should explain the authority of George F. Taylor, i.e. George F. Taylor, a [nationality] [occupation], categorized.

Architecture and description

• The now lost pediment used to measure 8.5 metres (28 ft) by 3 metres (9.8 ft). suggest The now lost pediment measured 8.5 metres (28 ft) by 3 metres (9.8 ft).

• @Elie plus: That is all my suggestions, passing now. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 17:22, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

@Iazyges: thank you for your review and your precious input. I'll make the necessary changes based on your review as soon as I can. ~ Elias Z. (talkallam) 18:19, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Archiving of links

Lead expand

Expand on Hermes / Monimos

CE suggestion of the Roman hegemony passage

Who is George F. Taylor

CE of ...The now lost pediment measured...

I will get to the other recommendations when I have some time. Thanks again @Iazyges: ~ Elias Z. (talkallam) 09:02, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

Congratulations!

I'd like to congratulate everyone who worked tirelessly to improve this article, especially from WikiProject Lebanon. This page revealed only 3 minor grammatical errors and several missing commas.

This makes it the best wiki article I have reviewed so far!

Keep up the great work fellow Wikipedians Sabaybayin (talk) 18:48, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you

Thank you @Sabaybayin: for your words of encouragement. I would like to appreciate the efforts of the reviewers and editors whose input was critical to improve this article; to name a few: @Brianboulton:, @Mirokado:, @FunkMonk:, @A. Parrot:, @Jens Lallensack:, @Laser brain:, @Hawkeye7:, @Nikkimaria:, @Ian Rose:, @Al Ameer son:, @Fjmustak:. ~ Elias Z. (talkallam) 09:11, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Original Research

I’m not being unreasonable here, @Elias Ziade:, all I ask for is that the written material need to stay true to its sources; as it stands right now, the article fails to adhere to a main and core policy:WP:OR. North Semitic, Canaanite, those claims are not supported by the sources you provided—as such, it should not be included. Also, Arabian is geographical term of purely conventional and lazy application which might be misleading in our case; I added additional source that specify what “Arabian”, Himyarite, Sabaeans, Qatabanians? Do not remove what have been supported by reliable and authoritative materials because WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT, please. Best regards Nabataeus (talk) 09:33, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

@Nabataeus I understand where you come from but stating that it is Arabian is oversiplification. New material has since come to light so Let's stop reverting until we figure this out. el.ziade (talkallam) 09:41, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree, there is no point in engaging in disruptive edit wars—I’m humbly asking you that you provide the said materials that explicitly states the Canaanite or North Semitic affiliation of the god. Nabataeus (talk) 09:46, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

There's little merit in incorporating content that draws parallels between Azizos and Arsu with Shahar and Shalim, as there's no evident link in the existing literature, at least to my knowledge. While my initial response may have been reactive, I maintain the belief that restricting the deity's worship exclusively to Arabs is imprecise. I propose considering a more encompassing term, but I'll keep the article unchanged until I can suggest a precise alternative that aligns with the content. el.ziade (talkallam) 14:35, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

@Nabataeus pinging el.ziade (talkallam) 14:35, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

@el.ziade

Understood. It’s easy to get carried away and assume bad faith in such situations, instead of engaging in constructive and meaningful discourse. However, I was confused when I read about the Canaanite nature and origin of the god knowing what I know. To add to my bafflement, there was an unsettling absence of the Arabian nature and characteristics of the deity, despite such aspects are being made abundantly clear in literature; according to Teixidor, he was brought to Edessa by Arab migrations along with his twin brother Monimos.

Doubtless, you have absorbed wide and vast amounts of material on the subject that led you to conceive such a picture. Still, we can not rely on that alone, obviously. I respect your opinions on the matter and would entertain them in a discussion if I’m free of any commitments, perhaps even accept them. However, one thing needs to be clear: personal opinions, analysis, and synthesis are not accepted here. Every non-trivial claim made in the article needs to be verifiable through reliable sources directly related to the article's topic and directly supporting it. If such criteria are met, I, sorry, there is (as it’s not a matter of opinion) no problem including relevant materials. Lastly, I do not see how the Arabian nature of the god is not aligned with the content of the article—if so, the issue need to be resolved with content of the article itself and not with how we present the god himself. Nabataeus (talk) 16:21, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

The fact of the matter is that all published materials related to the temple, mentioning Azizos, say that he is either a Semitic or a Phoenician deity (the latter is not supported by ancient sources save tangentially. Ugaritic texts give the dawn and dusk twin gods different, more literal names, and these are equated with Azizos and Arsu). I, too, felt conflicted upon encountering sources like these. We are aware that Phoenicians and Itureans coexisted, and their territories overlapped. A prime illustration is the Roman temple of Yanouh, situated on the route to the Phoenician Temple of Astarte in Apheca in the hinterlands of Byblos. Here, the earliest attested Iturean inscription, written in Aramaic, was discovered. Untagling the histories of these populations is a challenge. Take a look at these results, even academicians assert the same like here, to see what I'm talking about and that I did not out of my way to introduce OR. Thank you for bringing this up, until better sources are made available I will not change your edits. el.ziade (talkallam) 20:05, 3 December 2023 (UTC)

I see. Arabs are speakers of a Semitic language, but not Northwestern Semitic languages (e.g. Phoenician). If you have authoritative sources that assert the Phoenician or Canaanite identity of the god directly, feel free to add them. In any case, thank you for your civility—best regards. Nabataeus (talk) 03:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)