Talk:Robert M. Miller

Discussion

Moved from my talkpage: Hi Montanabw. The material that I contested on the page for Robert M. Miller has now been tagged "citation needed" for over a year. I still believe firmly that it is in violation of WP:BLPNAME and WP:DATED. I think that a year is more than sufficient time to wait for something to be cited on the biography of a living person and I am uncomfortable with that information remaining on the page any longer. Do you still have an objection to its removal until a source is provided? Canadian Paul 17:00, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Is the information wrong or merely uncited? If it's wrong, that's one thing, but to just remove content without taking a look for sources is another matter. Discuss. Montanabw^(talk) 17:06, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi. This content has been tagged for over a year with a citation needed tag and is, in my opinion, in violation of WP:BLPNAME ("names of family members who are not also notable public figures must be removed from an article if they are not properly sourced."), so the fact that it is uncited is sufficient to warrant its removal, and the onus of locating sources lies with the person who added the material, not the one removing it. In the interest of avoiding edit warring, however, it made more sense to discuss the issue than just remove it (for the moment). More so than the name, however, is the problem that it lists his current residence, which is also unsourced (and a violation of WP:DATED), which is another WP:BLP violation, since that information, if it is not demonstrably public knowledge in reliable sources, could be potentially harmful to the subject of the article. Canadian Paul 17:30, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi, okay I resolved the issue by adding a source that talks in detail about the move and eventual retirement to Thousand Oaks and his wife, Debby. I think the LA Times is a reputable enough source. Hope this helps! The raising of horses and mules should probably be removed at his age. dawnleelynn^(talk) 17:48, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks @Dawnleelynn:. My BLP concerns are satisfied now, although I will (when I have more time) take a look for a source for "Additionally, he raises American Quarter Horses and mules on his ranch." So I may bring that up in the future if I can't find anything, although it's not urgent. My only real sticking point, however, is, per WP:DATED, should we not include the phrase "as of 1995, Miller resides...", particularly as the source is fairly old and a lot can change in 23 years? Canadian Paul 17:56, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Page 2 of that LA times article just says "horses" so I chopped the quarter horse bit. Moved that sentence to the personal life section. Odd, but that LA times source used to be in the article, no clue why it was removed; probably an accidental problem. As for being dated, that's always a problem. If you have a newer source saying where he lives now, add it. As for keeping horses when one is in their 80s, plenty of people do so. Not all still ride, but hey, Queen Elizabeth II still does -- and she's over 90! Montanabw^(talk) 19:31, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

I just came across this web site that I believe gives a more up to date picture of Dr. Miller, states he lives in Thousand Oaks, and shows articles he's written. It's a veterinary web site DVM 360. It has a link to his professional web site, so it's verifies it's him. It's at [1]. @Montanabw:, do you think this is a reliable source? I'm almost 100 percent sure. Also, I wanted to make all the bare refs citations if that's okay. And I ran the checklinks tool and there are five dead links, so I will fix those. dawnleelynn^(talk) 20:30, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

I know you didn't ask me, but it looks reliable to me, albeit, I've been fooled before. But I really just wanted to stop by and complement the good work here; it's definitely a credit to the project. Thanks for looking into this. Canadian Paul 21:03, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

@Montanabw: When I was fixing the broken kinks, I noticed that the DVM360 web site had already been used for a reference or two, though not for the main page, I was touting. Also, I lost the total count, I fixed five or six broken links. But regarding that issue of adding archive links to live links that we have visited a few times before, this article is a good example of why it's not a complete solution. I fixed two links for the AVMF organization by changing the location of the live links just as had been done on their web site. No Wayback Machine archive links required. The other I did the same solution with was the Western States Horse Expo Hall of Fame which had just moved the location on their web site, so I updated the live link. And then, another link had no capture in Wayback Machine, but archive.is had a capture so I fixed it with that link. That is four total links that needed to be fixed manually, and the IA Bot could not have fixed those, except perhaps sometimes I think it does use the archive.is as a solution but not when it's being run with that option. Anyway, I think we could add the DVM360 Miler's main page as a more updated citation of his activity and residence. Also, thanks Canadian Paul. dawnleelynn^(talk) 22:18, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

DVM360 looks OK for what it is citing. It's a news source. Thanks for your help, Dawn. The only other wikignoming thing I'm seeing besides citation cleanup is perhaps to use the cite book template on his bibliography and be sure all the books have ISBN numbers (i.e. verified publication info, and being sure none are self-published-- I think they are all legit). Probably need to verify the videos too. Montanabw^(talk) 23:08, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

@Montanabw: Hi, I've found the missing ISBNs for those three books using the exact publication dates and publishers on Worldcat like you said. I've verified all the books, including the self-published ones. It all looks good. Now I am looking at the videos. It seems the list on the WP article has a few differences since creation now from this list that is on his web site, [2]. Should I update the WP article to match his web site Buy DVDs page? Thanks! dawnleelynn^(talk) 22:39, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

• Hmmm. That's a tricky question. Maybe see if they are all carried on Amazon.com as well. I hesitate to link directly to a commercial web site, though it's not an absolute prohibition, it's sketchy. See if you can find some WP guidelines on that sort of thing Montanabw^(talk) 19:47, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

• @Montanabw: Ok, not really looking to link them anywhere necessarily. Definitely not to Amazon which has a poor representation of Miller's books now that I've researched it. They are not all there, many don't have his name as the author in some of the listings, and the listings are aesthetically unpleasing. You could not search for the author's name and get a list of all his books on the site. The closest thing thing I could find in policy to a list of works guideline for videos was the discography on the Manual of Style/List of works page MOS:DISCOGRAPHY. This shows them displayed pretty much the same way they are on Miller's article, except the title is wikilinked to the album's article on Wikipedia. Of course. there are no articles for Miller's videos so will leave them unlinked. Here is what the changes would look like if I was to make the lists the same between the article and his Buy DVDs page on his web site. It would not be that much different [3].

• Lameness: Its Causes & Prevention, Video Velocity, 2012 - Same
• Safer Horsemanship, Video Velocity, 1999 - Same
• Understanding Horses, Video Velocity, 1999 - Same
• Early Learning, Video Velocity, 1995 - Same
• Control of the Horse - The Art Of Restraint, Video Horse World, 1994 - Same
• Imprint Training of the Foal. Palomine Productions, 1986 - Replaced by Foaling Fundamentals and Early Learning - see [4]
• Influencing the Horse's Mind, Palomine Productions, 1984 - Same

New

• Cowboy Dressage: Poetry in Motion #1
• Cowboy Dressage: "Dances with Cows"
• Cowboy Dressage: Poetry in Motion #2

dawnleelynn^(talk) 21:06, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

A discography approach is probably the way to go. The main thing is that his self-published work is going to be viewed as more "sketchy" than works published by mainstream publishers. I'd perhaps do full entries with the cite book parameters for all things published by third party publishers and video companies, and then add the others in a simple list as self-published, but help the reader understand the difference -- For example, I know the imprint training book was published in the mainstream press; it's what made him famous. Montanabw^(talk) 06:18, 30 March 2018 (UTC)