Talk:Reverse racism/Archive 6

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Why, if the racism article does not adopt the "prejudice plus power" view as fact, does this article do so?

That seems to violate NPOV. --Eldomtom2 (talk) 11:05, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

The article is based on numerous published, reliable sources. Perhaps it is the Racism article that should be changed. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 01:27, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

You seem to be using this as a mantra to any criticism. Have you actually conducted surveys of the studies that are out there, and are not merely assuming that the sources citied in this article say everything there is to know on the subject? --Eldomtom2 (talk) 11:18, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

WP:V is a core policy. If there are similar, high-quality sources that present a different view, feel free to present them here. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 16:17, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

The way a single paragraph was previously written was incredibly biased, or at the very least misleading. It is entirely possible that individuals can be hateful towards white people because they're white, such as this source or this source. I don't think anybody reasonable should argue that these two sources aren't documenting racism towards white people. That being said, I do agree that they aren't systemically oppressed, so systemic racism towards white people doesn't exist but the previous writing made it seem like individual racism towards white people didn't exist at all either. Unnamed anon (talk) 02:58, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

The lead sentence says (my bolding): Reverse racism or reverse discrimination is the concept that affirmative action and similar color-conscious programs for redressing racial inequality are a form of anti-white racism. Nothing there about individual racism or hate. The paragraph you edited specifically references systemic discrimination. Not sure why anyone would get the idea that this says anything about individual prejudice. The § Overview section states, The concept of reverse racism has also been used to characterize various expressions of hostility or indifference toward white people by members of minority groups. The word "also" indicates that this is not the main meaning of "reverse racism". --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 08:37, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

That sentence in the overview you just quoted is actually extremely helpful in clearing up the difference, thank you. Even if it isn't the main meaning of the term, the meaning is commonly stapled to the term, so seeing it acknowledged, even if also by stating that it isn't the main meaning, is extremely helpful. I do still think any acknowledgement of the alternate meaning should be in the lead, even if briefly, to immediately clear up any confusions, because judging by this talk page's archives I'm not the only one who immediately thinks of the alternate definition when reading the title. Unnamed anon (talk) 02:10, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 31 May 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Result:
Withdrawn. Closure requested <permalink>. Thanks and kudos to editors for your input; good health to all! P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 02:30, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

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Reverse racism → Discrimination towards white people – Like the discussion on reverse sexism, the current name, and some of the writing, seems heavily biased towards the idea that these do not exist and serve mostly to delegitimize one side while propping up the other of a highly controversial topic. While the name is notable, and should be mentioned in prose somewhere, it also breaks WP:NPV, similarly to the reverse sexism article. Unnamed anon (talk) 03:29, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:FALSEBALANCE, WP:FRINGE, etc. This is pretty obvious stuff, but if folks need sources, see e.g. [1]. Generalrelative (talk) 03:44, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
• Strong oppose; I suppose next you'll want articles titled "Discrimination against heterosexual people", "Discrimination against non-disabled people", and "Discrimination against rich people". By the way, the word I think the OP meant to use is "against", not "towards". NightHeron (talk) 04:34, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per Generalrelative, wikipedia policy, and common sense. --mikeu ^talk 05:22, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose Per WP:COMMONNAME, as that is what it is widely referred to in sources, as well as WP:FALSEBALANCE as no clarification is needed on who most racism targets. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 06:34, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose. The nominator is confusing false balance for neutrality. As numerous WP:RSes cited in the article make plain, white people do not suffer systemic discrimination; see e.g. the explanatory footnote in the lead section. "Reverse racism" is an epithet specifically used to denigrate affirmative action and similar programs. If anyone wants to create a separate article on anti-white discrimination, they are free to do so. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 06:46, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

  Have you actually looked for reliable sources that may present a different perspective? --Eldomtom2 (talk) 13:55, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

  The burden to provide sources is on the person who wants to change the contents of the article. That's not me. I would suggest sticking to secondary and tertiary academic sources to avoid imbalance. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 14:56, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

  If you genuinely think relying on academic sources is avoiding imbalance...!--Eldomtom2 (talk) 16:24, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

  The Wikipedia community does. See WP:SOURCETYPES. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 17:10, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

  I want to say that I absolutely agree that white americans do not suffer from systemic discrimination nor negative affirmative action, but the current name implies that individuals can not act hatefully towards white people because they're white. As an asian american, I have seen the latter happen. Unnamed anon (talk) 19:17, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. Wikipedia is, in fact, heavily biased towards things that are true. – Joe (talk) 14:00, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

  It is absolutely true that white americans don't suffer systemic discrimination, but the current name implies that it is impossible for individuals to be racist towards white people, which just isn't the case. I think the page is about the former, but the name implies the latter. Unnamed anon (talk) 19:17, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose for the reasons above, particularly in the US context. Mathsci (talk) 15:00, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
• Opposeespecially per Sangdeboeuf's comment " "Reverse racism" is an epithet specifically used to denigrate affirmative action and similar programs." and Joe Roe's statement that we are heavily biased towards things that are true. Doug Weller talk 15:25, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

  In that case, there should be a way to make it more clear that this page is about white americans/south africans not suffering affirmative action, which is true, than not suffering individual racism, which is not. Unnamed anon (talk) 19:17, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose this attempts to make a political statement with an article title, and does not assume good faith.Sheehanpg93 (talk) 17:11, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

  I'd argue the current name also makes a political statement by implying that individuals can't be racist towards white people (though I absolutely agree that white americans do not suffer systemic discrimination), but I can see how my proposed name also reads like a political statement. Unnamed anon (talk) 19:17, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

I withdraw my name change proposal, as I can see how the proposed name makes a political statement. I do, however, think the page needs to make the distinction between systemic racism/affirmative action (which white americans and south africans don't suffer, I'm not going to argue against that) and individuals acting hatefully towards white people for being white (which absolutely can and does happen, and I believe I linked some in one of my edit summaries) more clear, because currently the distinction isn't clear enough. I also think the globalize banner should stay. Do the sentence I added to the first paragraph and the reference accompanying it work? Unnamed anon (talk) 19:17, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add new source, don't know where.

@NightHeron:, I think this source (https://www.aclrc.com/myth-of-reverse-racism) absolutely belongs in this article, as its first paragraph helps readers distinguish between systemic racism and individual racial prejudice (which is a term that I and many others often shorten to racism regardless of whether others agree, which can cause confusion with the article name since it implies that both white people can not be the victims of racial prejudice at all, when what the page is actually conveying is that they're just not the subject of systemic prejudice). ACLRC stands for Alberta Civil Liberties Research Centre, so it seems very reliable, especially with it being written by an organization that references multiple sources. Since you reverted my addition of this source twice for being "unclear" (I personally think the second instance was very clear, and the source distinguishes the two in its first paragraph), where and how would you put this source in, because regardless of how I wrote it in the source 1000% belongs on this page? Unnamed anon (talk) 21:18, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

It certainly does not belong in the lead, which is supposed to be a summary of the article. Perhaps a sentence could go in the "Public attitudes" section. Perhaps a brief direct quote from the source would be clear, but we'd have to see whether it fits. NightHeron (talk) 22:14, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

The § Overview section already states (my bolding): Racial and ethnic minorities in the United States generally lack the power to damage the interests of white people, who remain the dominant group. Relations between the groups have been historically shaped by European imperialism and long-standing oppression of blacks by whites. Such disparities in the exercise of power and authority are seen by scholars as an essential component of racism; in this view, individual beliefs and examples of favoring disadvantaged people do not constitute racism. This is basically saying the same thing as the ACLRC page while citing several more reliable sources. Readers who are confused by the name can keep on reading. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:21, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Looking more closely at the source, the Alberta Civil Liberties Research Centre is affiliated with the University of Calgary, but seems to be run like a private think tank. Their mission is explicitly ideological, and the source cites activists and commentators, not scholars, so I wouldn't use it for any exceptional claims. However, I think it could be cited, in the body, with in-text attribution. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:26, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

The big thing I wanted to use this source for is to make it clear that proponents of reverse racism being a myth don't deny that racial prejudice towards white people is fake, it just isn't considered racism to them. That specific point is currently not properly communicated. This is what I want copied here, with the bolded statements being the main points not communicated yet:

While assumptions and stereotypes about white people do exist, this is considered racial prejudice, not racism. Racial prejudice refers to a set of discriminatory or derogatory attitudes based on assumptions derived from perceptions about race and/or skin colour. Thus, racial prejudice can indeed be directed at white people (e.g., “White people can’t dance”) but is not considered racism because of the systemic relationship to power. Unnamed anon (talk) 00:52, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Like I said, I wouldn't use this as the sole source for any exceptional claims. We already have an article on the "prejudice plus power" definition of racism, btw. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 01:27, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

The claim I wanted implemented somewhere isn't specifically the prejudice plus power line, but rather the racial prejudice can indeed be directed at white people line, with the acknowledgement that regardless of our differing definitions of racism, prejudice is entirely possible, because the article previously communicated that you can be prejudiced against white people such as in this, this or this and it's perfectly okay. I know statistically it's more common for white people to be prejudiced towards black people, but until I added the source, it seemed to communicate that the situations I just linked are either fake or that negative generalization of an entire race isn't racially prejudiced in some form. I'm not white and even I can tell that negatively generalizing an entire race like that is obviously racially prejudiced. I don't think "racially motivated prejudice against white people can't happen" is an exceptional claim in any universe, especially with the couple of examples I've linked. Unnamed anon (talk) 01:54, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Even if your source is reliable, I see two problems with adding that material. The first is that it's not directly about the topic of the article, but rather about what the topic of the article does not include. The second is that it's really a pretty trivial observation. Of course, some black people might generalize from bad experiences with white people and make statements about white people in general. Similarly, some gay people undoubtedly have stereotypes about heterosexual people, some disabled people about non-disabled people, some poor people about rich people, etc. Per WP:UNDUE it is not clear that any of this should be included in Wikipedia articles, at least not unless/until it becomes a subject of interest in multiple reliable secondary sources.

In any case, please don't add anything of this sort to the article until after a consensus is reached on the talk-page to do so, and that might not happen. Thanks. NightHeron (talk) 15:01, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Unnamed anon, you might get something out of reading WP:ASTONISHME. Generalrelative (talk) 15:17, 1 June 2022 (UTC)

Why is it called reverse racism.

Racism is racism. Reverse racism sounds like racism can only come from one race primarily of the white racial group. Racism comes from any race group. Thus I suggest to change it to anti-white racism. 105.245.108.252 (talk) 23:23, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

Please provide a published, reliable source to support your desired changes. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 05:10, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

I think the main problem with this page (and there are a litany of them) is that it comes off as an argument against the concept rather than objectively describing the concept. Encyclopedias aren't forums to advance an ideology one way or the other but, rather, to present the facts and descriptions objectively.

For example, an article about Christianity or Judaism shouldn't devolve into whether they are the "true religion" or whether their dogmas can be proven. That may merit a section, but the article should focus on an objective description of the concept. Gumbear (talk) 16:18, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

@Gumbear I’ve given you a welcome message. Start with WP:V and then WP:NPOV and I hope you’ll see that we don’t quite work that way. Eg we make it clear that Creationism is wrong. Doug Weller talk 18:36, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

I completely agree with WP:NPOV and WP:V, and perhaps that is my point. This page uses many sources without neutral viewpoints as if they are fact rather than opinion. That's not to say those sources don't have a place in the article but, as it is, it reads like a propaganda piece.

Without going into the merits of Reverse Racism and Creationism, I think the article on Creationism is a good model for what this article should be. That article comes off as far more objective and explains the belief(s), while this one seems dedicated to refuting an idea a few editors disagree with. Also, the fact someone doesn't believe reverse racism exists today doesn't mean it hasn't existed in the past or will not exist in the future. It's a concept, not a scientifically disproven theory of physics.

While I'm new here, I've been following this post for sometime and seen the edit wars. Many credible and neutral sources substantiating this concept have been removed, while others of more questionable viewpoint neutrality continue to be posted. If this article wants to be relevant, it needs to stick to the facts and clearly identify the arguments in separate sections. It shouldn't pick sides--especially when the concept is hotly contested. That's not the purpose of an encyclopedia. Gumbear (talk) 19:25, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

The topic is not hotly contested among actual published scholars, who are the only sources that matter here. Feel free to suggest additional sources that you feel are appropriate, but please read WP:RS first. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 13:52, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

DRN Discussion

Moderated discussion had been in progress with two editors at DRN. Since other editors have begun discussing the content issue here, on the article talk page, I have put the DRN discussion on hold to allow regular discussion to resume here. Article talk page is always a precondition to moderated discussion at DRN. Please be civil and concise. (Some of the posts here are civil but not concise.) Discuss article content, not contributors. If talk page discussion here is lengthy and inconclusive, moderated discussion at DRN can be resumed, including the additional editors. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:10, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Hah! The lack of conciseness is probably me--trying to solve every problem in one response. Thanks for your assistance! Gumbear (talk) 05:23, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 September 2022

Change "Reverse racism or reverse discrimination is the concept that affirmative action and similar color-conscious programs for redressing racial inequality are a form of anti-white racism." to "Reverse racism or reverse discrimination is the concept that typically advantaged people are relegated to inferior positions or denied social opportunities to benefit racial and ethnic minorities, or, in some instances, women."

This change is largely a direct quote from the citation: Yee, June Ying (2008). "Racism, Types of". In Shaefer, Richard T. (ed.). Encyclopedia of Race, Ethnicity, and Society. SAGE. pp. 1118–19. ISBN 978-1-41-292694-2. It more fully encapsulates the concept of "Reverse Racism". The current sentence seems a bit myopic, anglo-centric, and is not fully supported by the sources cited.

. Gumbear (talk) 21:26, 14 September 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: The Yee source is only one of many summarized in the lead section. Others directly support the quoted text. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 00:21, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Can you identify a source that defines reverse racism/discrimination as exclusively anti-white? Or that it deals exclusively with affirmative action? This sentence suggests they are. While the cited sources clearly associate anti-white racism and affirmative action as examples of reverse discrimination, none of them require these characteristics as this sentence clearly implies. Seems to violate WP:SYN. Seems to advance a novel concept. Gumbear (talk) 09:32, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

See Ansell (2013, p. 136): reverse racism is alleged to be a new form of anti-white racism practiced by blacks and/or the so-called civil rights establishment and Garner (2017, p. 14): terms such as 'reverse racism' [...] derived from perceptions that programmes ranging from affirmative action to multiculturalism in the public arena end up placing white people at a systematic disadvantage. Other sources may be found by searching for mentions of white people in the article text. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 13:47, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

I noticed you deleted the link to Ansell (not sure why, but it is now harder to verify the content), but if you review it you'll notice her quote is in the context of U.S. racism--which goes to my point above (as well as this article's banner) that the definition is a bit U.S. and Anglo-centric. As for Garner, who isn't cited in the text, his quote is about where the term is derived from--not the definition of reverse racism. And neither source claims "reverse racism" is exclusive to either affirmative action or anti-white racism. To the extent you believe they claim "reverse racism" is so narrow, this would contradict Yee's statement above and would merit an explanation of differing viewpoints.

More practically, the current definition seems to run afoul of modern-day usage. For example: The U.S. EEOC advocates on behalf of white victims of race harassment (i.e. not affirmative action) under "reverse discrimination"; The UK's Equality Act of 2010 is broad enough to prohibit reverse racism for various non-AA offenses; This case, involving Asian Americans, is about to be heard by SCOTUS; India feels it has its own version of reverse racism/discrimination. Each of these examples would fall under Yee's definition, and indeed but they do not seem to fit in the one currently posted. In your view, how would they be classified? Gumbear (talk) 19:47, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Also, can you re-imbed the citations you deleted? It makes it easier to see the sources in-context rather than in isolation. Thanks! Gumbear (talk) 19:56, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

The article does not say reverse racism deals exclusively with affirmative action. Many articles are US-centric because, like this one, they deal with mainly US-related topics. Various court rulings and laws are primary sources and don't affect the contents of the article. I didn't delete any citations, only links that don't point to full-text versions of the source. You can still find online text sources via the {{ISBN}} in the footnote, which links to Special:BookSources. The Ansell and Garner sources don't actually contradict Yee (2008). Yee is giving a very general overview of various conceptions of racism. We tend to rely on more in-depth sources such as Ansell and Garner, who each devote a section specifically to the idea of reverse racism. Both are cited clearly in the text. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 09:32, 16 September 2022 (UTC) (edited 00:05, 24 September 2022 (UTC))

The lead, and first sentence in particular, clearly implies that reverse racism/discrimination deals exclusively with anti-white racism and Affirmative Action. This is, as shown, too narrow and violates MOS:OPEN. Ansell and Garner's views (and, again, Garner isn't even cited in the text) appear to give background on the origins of reverse racism in the U.S. They do not give definitions for the concept, whereas Yee gives the widely-accepted definition of it. Your interpretation seems to violate SYN.

The banner on this page indicates it's looking for a worldwide view, and focus on the U.S. ignores that there's a section on South Africa. Even then, as shown by the EEOC and SCOTUS, your definition doesn't cover every act of reverse racism in the U.S. Their views are notable, as they are the current law of the U.S. There's no hard-and-fast rule against primary sources (only that they be used with discretion), but the sources I gave I believe were secondary.

As for the links, you clearly deleted the links to the exact quotes after I posted--which facilitated access to the full-text sources. This facilitates verification of the citations. Can you please revert those?

If you disagree that's fine. I know I'm not winning any friends here, but this seems too obvious a change and I'd like to get a 3rd-party neutral. Gumbear (talk) 11:04, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

...and similar color-conscious programs. Users' personal interpretation of which definition is widely-accepted is irrelevant original research. I've already responded to your other comments. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 14:00, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you still haven't cited a source to support your definition. Rather, you've combined two sources out-of-context to advance a narrow, novel definition that defies the clear definition set out by one of the cited sources. This is original research. Ansell even undermines your interpretation on pg. 4 of her book: "Neo-conservatives denounce the policy [affirmative action] as 'reverse racism,' maintaining that race is a morally irrelevant trait that should have no role in policy formation." i.e., reverse racism encompasses more than affirmative action. I'd even be open to this definition: "discrimination or prejudice against a racial or ethnic majority, especially as perceived as occurring by white people."

As it is, you haven't addressed the problems with this opening. You still have a narrow, synthesized, US-centric definition of reverse racism that does not encompass the full scope of this concept as widely accepted by U.S. and International government agencies and the sociological community at large. Your cites may belong in this article in the U.S. section, but your synthesis of them as a definition of reverse racism does not. If you don't agree with the suggested modification, what are your issues submitting it to a 3rd party neutral? Gumbear (talk) 15:34, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

The lead sentence already states that reverse racism encompasses more than affirmative action. The definition given in the lead section is taken almost word-for-word from the Ansell source, who is as reliable as any on this topic. If you have a source for another definition of reverse racism that is widely accepted by U.S. and international government agencies and the sociological community at large – not a synthesis of sources – then feel free to present it here. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 04:51, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Can you identify where this is word-for-word from Ansell? Because it's not on the pages cited. In fact, a google search reveals this undergraduate paper. It also defines reverse racism as (with direct quotes to Ansell) a “concept that portrays affirmative action in the United States and similar color-conscious programs as a form of anti-white racism on the part of black people and government agencies; it is commonly associated with conservative opposition to such programs” (Ansell 46). That is remarkably similar to your definition. However, this quote is found nowhere in Ansell's book--or at least in the cited pages. I don't know how this happened, but it's interesting both these articles mis-cited Ansell in the same way. This page says the paper was published on May 7, 2019--which is before your edit. Not accusing you of anything, but can you explain that? Did you cite to this paper?

As an aside, as far as Ansell being a neutral opinion, if you look at her works she's definitely not neutral on this issue. It'd be like relying on Peter H. Wood, who specializes in the history of race relations and has a far different perspective than Ansell. Gumbear (talk) 13:39, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

That paper is evidently plagiarizing Wikipedia; the quoted sentence was added to the article in March 2018. The relevant part of Ansell (2013) is on pages 135–136 (my bolding): Reverse racism is a concept commonly associated with conservative opposition to affirmative action and other color-conscious victories of the civil rights movement in the United States and anti-racist movements abroad. While traditional forms of racism involve prejudice and discrimination on the part of whites against blacks, reverse racism is alleged to be a new form of anti-white racism practiced by blacks and/or the so-called civil rights establishment (alternately referred to as the anti-racism industry). I am looking right now at a scanned hard copy I made myself and I can assure you those words are in the text. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:49, 17 September 2022 (UTC) (edited (formatting) 00:11, 24 September 2022 (UTC))

I see it now--my apologies, and thanks for the link. Even so, I stand by my comments: Ansell's description is not, and does not allege to be, a definition. Ansell says "reverse discrimination is a concept commonly associated with..." That's far different than "Reverse racism is the concept that affirmative action..." She does not give the definition, but merely opines that it is associated with conservative opposition to AA. She also says it's alleged to be a new form of anti-white racism. She does not claim to define the parameters here, but merely describes certain movements associated with it. The current text completely changes the meaning of what Ansell said. Can you at least appreciate there is a difference between a concept "commonly associated with certain movements" and a concept that is a certain movement? For example, fleas are commonly associated with pets. However, fleas are not necessarily found on all pets, and their presence isn't limited to pets. Gumbear (talk) 02:15, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Once again, reverse racism is alleged to be a new form of anti-white racism. That is the definition Ansell gives, specifically in reference to affirmative action. This is reinforced by her statement on page 4, Neo-conservatives in the US denounce the policy [affirmative action] as 'reverse racism', as well as page 46, Critics of race-consciousness contend the doctrine [...] ultimately constitutes a new form of anti-white reverse racism. "New form" refers to a new form of racism, which is alleged to be [...] practiced by blacks and/or the so-called civil rights establishment. This is all summarized in the lead section. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 02:45, 18 September 2022 (UTC) (edited 03:01, 18 September 2022 (UTC))

One movement's opinion that affirmative action is classified under "reverse racism" does not an all-encompassing definition make, and making that the definition would be synthesis. It's a composition fallacy (i.e. affirmative action is reverse racism, so reverse racism is affirmative action). There are clear definitions out there that don't require a synthesis of sources to create and that would encompass the world of reverse racism. We can do better than what's there now. Gumbear (talk) 02:55, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

There is no synthesis; Ansell explicitly frames the concept in relation to affirmative action. Likewise, there is no world of reverse racism. "Reverse racism" is an epithet specifically used to denigrate affirmative action and similar programs, and to a lesser extent, isolated examples of anti-white discrimination or hostility. All the in-depth reliable sources cited are clear that these things do not constitute racism per se. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 03:57, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

I never said Ansell was a neutral opinion, only that her book is a reliable source on the topic. Reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:59, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Right--and I have no issues with putting her in here in context. However, her opinions should be noted as her opinions--and other reputable scholars with different views on the subject should also be included. Gumbear (talk) 02:18, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Such as...? --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 03:05, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

The proposed definition of reverse racism as discrimination or prejudice against a racial or ethnic majority, especially as perceived as occurring by white people is incorrect, as most of the sources state that reverse racism is not real, i.e. there is no meaningful "discrimination" occurring. None of the sources presented say anything about "prejudice" per se. The quote from Ansell on p. 4 is not a contradiction. The fact that conservatives denounce affirmative action as "reverse racism" is part and parcel of the concept of reverse racism itself. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 05:53, 17 September 2022 (UTC) Struck part of comment 01:02, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

The idea that reverse racism does not exist is demonstrably false and relies on an altered definition of "reverse racism," but that's not relevant to this discussion. We're trying to get a commonly-accepted definition of "reverse racism." As I've discussed above, your description is a mischaracterization of a cited source. It makes assumptions the original author clearly doesn't make. The definition I gave you comes from a widely-accepted dictionary. Gumbear (talk) 02:35, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

The Dictionary.com definition does not give any clue as to how the term "reverse racism" is used, nor the context in which it is used. Bear in mind that Wikipedia is not a dictionary. It describes concepts; it doesn't just define terms. If you have a published source saying the idea that reverse racism does not exist is demonstrably false, feel free to present it here. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 05:06, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Likewise, the more general definition by Yee on p. 1118 is not a contradiction either, unless you are asserting that whites are not typically advantaged people wherever they are in the majority. Nor have I seen any sources to support the claim that Yee's definition is more widely-accepted. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 06:19, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

I don't know that Yee created this definition. Almost every reputable dictionary I've seen roughly follows the definition he gives. Again, show me a reputable source that identifies that the definition of "reverse racism" is as narrow as you say. I've given you mine. Gumbear (talk) 02:43, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

This fixation on the definition of the term is misplaced. See WP:NOT#DICT. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 03:15, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

And, again, I'd encourage you to accept my offer for a 3rd party neutral--or someone that can give an objective opinion. Gumbear (talk) 02:46, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

You are welcome to post a request for a third opinion on the appropriate noticeboard. Robert McClenon has also offered to provide a third opinion in lieu of moderated discussion. I'd be fine with that if you are. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 03:20, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

I'll try to respond here to make it easier: The idea "reverse racism" is an epithet to denigrate AA is your opinion--which you're welcome to, but we're trying to create an neutral page with objective definitions. Dictionaries: "Both dictionaries and encyclopedias contain definitions." The Dictionary.com definition does, in fact, have explanations about "what is reverse racism", "where does reverse racism come from", and how it's used in sentences. However, there are other definitions of reverse racism/discrimination from credible sources, like here, and here, and here, or here. Here's one from the American Psychological Association. I previously opined the definition you give from the source you cite was a composition fallacy but, as I look at it further, I believe it's more accurately an association fallacy: Reverse racism is associated with opposition to AA and anti-white racism. As such, reverse racism is opposition to AA and anti-white racism. The Yee source is a much better definition and is widely accepted.

Assuming Robert McClenon is a true neutral source (i.e. doesn't know either of us and does not otherwise follow this page), I think that's the right way to go. We're clearly at an impasse and it's good to have an objective opinion come in. Gumbear (talk) 01:03, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

The APA dictionary entry is about "reverse discrimination", not reverse racism per se. Just because the two terms are sometimes used interchangeably does not mean they always refer to the same topic. The claim that Yee's definition is widely accepted seems to be original research based on a few unrelated dictionary entries, several of which do not mention "reverse racism" at all: here, here, and here

We are not here to judge the reasoning employed by published, reliable sources; nonetheless, the claim that Ansell's definition is an association fallacy seems to be based on a misreading of the article and/or source. Neither one says reverse racism is opposition to AA and anti-white racism.

It's not just my opinion that "reverse racism" is an epithet used by opponents of affirmative action. See Bonilla-Silva (2010, p. 211) (my bolding): The first component of this animus is the anti-affirmative action and 'reverse racism' mentality that emerged in the early 1970s and that took a firm hold of whites' racial imagination since the 1980s, Gerald Early in the foreword to Blauner (2022, p. 16): Whites, in self-defense, responded with the term 'reverse racism' in the face of affirmative action, Garner (2017, p. 14): terms such as 'reverse racism' [...] derived from perceptions that programmes ranging from affirmative action to multiculturalism in the public arena end up placing white people at a systematic disadvantage, McBride (2005, p. 8): Such [affirmative action] programs have proven to be successful, but nonetheless have undergone extreme criticism from conservative opponents who claim that such programs are 'reverse racism' , and Stanley Fish's 1993 essay: a similar forgetting of history has in recent years allowed some people to argue [...] that affirmative action is reverse racism. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 02:43, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Mainly responding to the initial request. The thrust of the proposed change seems to have two parts. The first is to change to the group which alleges that they are being mistreated from "white" to "typically advantaged people". When the subject is specific to race, that seems euphemistic. Which are the other "typically advantaged" races that use this term? (Note that this is a different question from whether there are other groups that challenge affirmative action -- this isn't an article about criticism of affirmative action but about the perspective "reverse racism"). The other part of the change seems to be an elaboration of "anti-white racism" with "relegated to inferior positions or denied social opportunities". That seems fine to add (not the part about women, though, given that's a completely different subject), except that it's more or less addressed in the very next sentence: "the belief that social and economic gains by black people in the United States and elsewhere cause disadvantages for white people". — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:34, 21 September 2022 (UTC)

Good questions. Let's discuss them. 1. Change definition from "White people" to "typically advantaged people": This is a definition about a racial concept, not a particular race. This concept can and is used to describe discrimination/prejudice against whites and Asians in the U.S., blacks in predominantly black countries in Africa, Indians in India, Jews in Israel, and Asians in Asia. However, this isn't a discussion about how prevalent reverse racism is for each race. That's a different discussion. 2. The concept should encompass more than simply relegating certain races to inferior positions or denied social opportunities. It also includes harassment and other forms of racial prejudice. This is codified under U.S. law. Also, as you point out, prejudice to women clearly is not racial. That part does not belong in the definition. I'm open to other definitions, but they should not focus on a particular race or be limited to racially discriminatory government or social programs. Gumbear (talk) 00:50, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

^{[citation needed]} Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 01:40, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Sure. Here are definitions from reputable online dictionaries: Oxford, Dictionary.com, Collins. Gumbear (talk) 12:41, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

Dictionaries, including online ones, are not RS for determining how Wikipedia should cover a topic. Sangdeboeuf already pointed this out to you earlier in this thread. NightHeron (talk) 13:36, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

As I pointed out, all encyclopedias include definitions. Can you cite to a definition that is credible and not based on an association fallacy--as is the current definition? And is there any logical, non-racist reason we wouldn't incorporate a widely accepted definition into the article? It's hard to understand the concept of "reverse racism" if you can't accurately define it. Gumbear (talk) 04:13, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

WP users' opinion that the reliably sourced definition is based on an association fallacy is moot. We go by what published, reliable sources state. And once again, you are conflating the term "reverse racism" with the concept of reverse racism. They have different definitions because they are different things. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 14:37, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

All encyclopedias include definitions, yes, but putting the dictionary definition in the lead sentence would be giving it undue weight. The context of how the term is used is just as important, and is found in in-depth, scholarly sources, not in dictionaries. The fact that "reverse racism" refers to perceived anti-white discrimination rather than reality is essential information that a literal dictionary definition would not include. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 03:23, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

The insinuation that arguments against a given proposal are racist is an uncalled-for personal attack. Wikipedia is not the place to right such perceived wrongs. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 03:46, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

The cited source says "Reverse racism is a concept commonly associated with conservative opposition to affirmative action and other color conscious programs..." You removed associated to create "Reverse racism or reverse discrimination is the concept that affirmative action and similar color-conscious programs..." That's the definition of association fallacy. If you use published, reliable sources, why would you avoid using a published, reliable dictionary definition in favor of a misquoted statement that creates an association fallacy? And the definition of "term" is "a word or phrase used to describe a thing or to express a concept, especially in a particular kind of language or branch of study." You need the "term" to describe the "concept."

As for giving undue weight in the lead sentence, "Encyclopedia articles should begin with a good definition and description of one topic (or a few largely or completely synonymous or otherwise highly related topics), but the article should provide other types of information about that topic as well." If not lead, where would you put it? I'm more concerned a good definition is in there than where it's at. And don't confuse perceived with reality. Perceptions are often later substantiated, as found here.

And nowhere did I call any arguments against a given proposal racist--I only asked for a logical, non-racist explanation. There was no accusation, and if you took it that way I apologize. Can you explain why there's not enough room to include a definition found in reputable dictionaries? Or why an authoritative description would detract from the article? Gumbear (talk) 04:36, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Dunno why you're fixated on the one word "associated", but I didn't remove or misquote it; I summarized several sources in my own words according to WP's verifiability policy. The relation to conservatism is mentioned in the very next sentence: The concept is often associated with conservative social movements.

I've already explained why dictionary definitions are not good sources: Wikipedia is not a dictionary. It describes concepts; it doesn't just define terms, and the context of how the term is used is just as important, and is found in in-depth, scholarly sources, not in dictionaries. The fact that we use terms to describe concepts does not mean they are the same thing.

Multiple published, reliable sources say "reverse racism" is not a social reality; see Note 1 in the article for a sample. The EEOC page on "reverse discrimination" cases under Title VII doesn't mention "reverse racism" or even describe "reverse discrimination" as a topic in itself. To describe these individual cases as examples of "reverse racism" would be WP:OR.

The article already has an authoritative description of the topic, based on several published sources: Reverse racism ... is the concept that affirmative action and similar color-conscious programs for redressing racial inequality are a form of anti-white racism. The concept is often associated with conservative social movements and the belief that social and economic gains by black people in the United States and elsewhere cause disadvantages for white people. What part of this description is not supported by published, reliable sources in your opinion? --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:47, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

...and even if they were (they're not), those links don't support most of your claims. Dictionaries are free to use vague language if they want, but that doesn't mean we have to if we have sources that allow us to be more precise. You claim that this concept can and is used to describe discrimination/prejudice against whites and Asians in the U.S., blacks in predominantly black countries in Africa, Indians in India, Jews in Israel, and Asians in Asia--let's see some sources. The concept should encompass more than simply relegating certain races to inferior positions or denied social opportunities. This is codified under U.S. law.--sources, please. Also, raw Google searches are more or less the absolute worst kind of "sourcing" there is, but even with that in mind, I'm not sure what your Google search is intended to show; for me, it just says "It looks like there aren't many great matches for your search" and gives me the first result of this article titled "the myth of reverse racism", discussing it in an explicitly white context, so I feel that rather undermines your argument anyway. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 13:45, 23 September 2022 (UTC)

The definitions are meant to define a concept. That's all. To the extent they don't support my claims (and I disagree with that), so be it. As for the claims (which, again, is a separate discussion), try here: "The idea of reverse discrimination generates controversy among Indians and Americans alike. Due to the political and social similarities that exist in both countries in regard to affirmative action, the potential for continued future interaction is significant." Consider this observation of an Indian in Silicon Valley: "...when the workplace decides to promote them to a position of power, sometimes they become the oppressor, unleashing a wave of ‘reverse racism’ in the office. They adopt an ‘eye for an eye’ strategy." Here's a current example of reverse racism against Asians. U.S. Law: Title VII prohibits race/color discrimination against all persons, including Caucasians.

As for your "myth of reverse racism" cite, I'm struck by this quote: "While assumptions and stereotypes about white people do exist, this is considered racial prejudice, not racism." It reminds me of this quote from the movie version of "The Giver": “They hadn't eliminated murder. They brought it home. They just called it by a different name.” Based on a Google search, there are many sources trying to do the same with "reverse racism." Gumbear (talk) 05:28, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Your first link includes the footnote: Marc Galanter points out that the many names for affirmative action in India are similar to the different names used in the U.S. for affirmative action such as "reverse discrimination." Other names that describe India's affirmative action programs include "special treatment," "protective discrimination," "special provision," etc. Id. at. This implies that the actual term "reverse discrimination" is not used outside the US, so it doesn't actually sound useful to assert that the term is used as is to refer to non-white people elsewhere in the world. Your second link is an opinion piece, a blog post, so not reliable. Your third link does not mention the phrase "reverse discrimination" or "reverse racism". Your fourth link only uses the phrase "reverse discrimination" in the specific context of white people and nowhere else: some courts take the position that if a white person relies on circumstantial evidence to establish a reverse discrimination claim, he or she must meet a heightened standard of proof.

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say with talking about The Giver, but maybe you missed the link at the top of this article to our own article on reverse discrimination, which is wholly separate from this article on reverse racism. Perhaps that page is the place for the material you're trying to add, if it's not there already? (As an aside, I'm not really sure why "reverse discrimination" is included as a bolded phrase on this article at all; imo, it should be removed, and the reverse discrimination article should stand for that concept on its own. But maybe that's just me.) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 06:25, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Let's acknowledge a good point you bring up: Equating "reverse discrimination" to "reverse racism." Reverse racism is clearly a subset of reverse discrimination. It doesn't encompass all of reverse discrimination, but simply deals with the racial part. I'm fine taking it out, but acknowledge that many sources discuss "reverse discrimination" in the context of race (rather than, for example, gender). That is "reverse racism."

Chandola article: There obviously are other names for "reverse racism". Chandola simply acknowledges that it accurately describes what takes place in India.

Times of India piece: It's simply an example of the term used in contexts outside of "anti-white racism." It's not meant to advance an argument, nor do I see bias in his POV.

NY Magazine piece: It describes an arguably privileged race being inversely discriminated against in college admissions based on race. Try this one, too. What would you call it if not reverse racism/discrimination?

Title VII: It doesn't limit "reverse racism" to affirmative action or other color-based programs--which is how the current definition defines "reverse racism". Anti-white racism is obviously the prevalent situation for "reverse racism" in the U.S., but nowhere does it limit the concept so narrowly.

The Giver: You pointed to Google showing articles arguing "reverse racism" is a myth. It's a common POV for followers of this article, but when you look deeper you see the argument is not based on fact, but an altered definition designed to minimize the concept. It's the same social phenomenon The Giver critiques: changing the definition of a societal ill doesn't mean the societal ill doesn't still exist.

Bottom line: we need a credible, objective definition for "reverse racism" that encompasses the entire scope of the concept--and not one based on a subjective POV. The current one is subjective and an obvious association fallacy inferred from one cited source. Gumbear (talk) 12:47, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Once again, the dictionaries you cited define the terms "reverse racism/discrimination", not the concept (and indeed reverse discrimination has its own article), for which we rely on in-depth, secondary sources, not opinion pieces or op-eds. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 14:40, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Many sources discuss 'reverse discrimination' in the context of race (rather than, for example, gender). That is 'reverse racism' – this is original research. Furthermore, most of the sources cited are not generally reliable. The one source that seems OK (Chandola, 1992) doesn't even mention "reverse racism".

It's a common POV for followers of this article, but when you look deeper you see the argument is not based on fact – we are not here to speculate about whether any argument is factual or subjective. We simply follow sources that have been determined to be reliable. See WP:TRUTH. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 02:52, 26 September 2022 (UTC) (edited 03:52, 26 September 2022 (UTC)))

Does racism include gender discrimination? I don't believe this requires original research to know the answer. Just a good definition.

I agree we are here to follow sources determined to be reliable regardless of our own personal beliefs. Getting the right definition shouldn't be controversial. You can believe that reverse racism doesn't currently exist while also supporting a broadly-used and accepted dictionary definition to define the concept. Gumbear (talk) 04:49, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Whether any of us think we know the answer is irrelevant. "Even if you are sure something is true, it must be verifiable before you can add it." Dictionaries don't generally define concepts, they define terms. Terms and concepts are not the same thing. See map–territory relation and use–mention distinction. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 23:57, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I read the discussion above and broadly agree with Rhododendrites, Writ Keeper, NightHeron, and Sangdebouef. The article's lead succinctly summarizes the well-sourced body. If there's a problem with our opening line, it won't be shown by a couple definitions and poor sources, but by evidence of a large body of high quality RS that are about a type of reverse racism that isn't currently mentioned in the article. Haven't seen that yet. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 03:25, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I agree as well. I've been following this conversation but didn't necessarily feel like wading in. It does now seem clear however that a rather solid consensus has been achieved. The status quo language is fine and well supported by the sources. Gumbear, I encourage you to accept this consensus, even if you continue to disagree personally, and move on to other parts of the project where you can continue to contribute. We all lose arguments once in a while. Cheers all, Generalrelative (talk) 04:08, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Appreciate your comment. I guess I'm just curious as to how you guys envision improving this article with the banner it currently has (i.e. may not represent a worldwide view of the subject.). The definition seemed like an obvious place, but if even use of a reputable dictionary definition to define the topic is controversial I'm afraid I don't know that any adjustments would get consensus. At least anything I would propose. Gumbear (talk) 05:18, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

That's a different issue. To address the problem of the US focus of this article we'd need reliable sources that discuss the use of the term "reverse racism" in other countries. Perhaps the reason why such sources are hard to find is that the reverse racism terminology seems to have been adopted by the white grievance movement in the US much more than in other countries. NightHeron (talk) 09:56, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

The concept of "reverse racism" and examples of reverse racism in practice are 2 different issues--both of which belong in an article about "reverse racism". I've given examples of it happening in other countries in this discussion, but the common refrain is "it's not a secondary source" so it doesn't exist. I'm not sure why it's not covered more among scholars. Perhaps racial bias. Perhaps because social scientists are predominantly progressive. The cited authors (Ansell, Garner, Blauner, etc.) seem to all share this bias. However, none of this is relevant to ensuring this article properly defines the subject with a widely accepted definition. I'm not sure why this is controversial--unless there's something going on in this particular page that I don't quite understand. Editors in this discussion have called me out for using "reverse discrimination" definitions because they're off-topic, and yet they have no issues with the article equating "reverse racism" with "reverse discrimination." Go figure. But I'm one editor and, based on this conversation and the article's history, there seems to be a community of followers resistant to any change. Gumbear (talk) 14:03, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Because again, Wikipedia takes its cues from coverage in reliable sources. It's not enough for *you* to provide examples, make inferences, and draw conclusions--we need reliable sources to do so. If reliable sources only describe reverse racism in the context of white people feeling victimized, we will, too. I see Sangdebouf has modified the introductory sentence to no longer directly equate "reverse racism" with "reverse discrimination"--I think that's a good change, though I wouldn't mind going further and taking it out of the lede entirely, as I mentioned above. I *don't* think the article should equate the two terms--I said as much already, since reverse discrimination exists as a separate article--but the solution to that is to stop making the article do that, not to force more "reverse discrimination" stuff into it and muddy the waters. The "other people won't let me make any change" complaint is an old refrain, and a boring one; the antidote to that is to provide reliable sources that support your assertions. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:17, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Do you not consider the Oxford or Collins Dictionaries credible? Or Yoo? Those are the sources we're discussing. Gumbear (talk) 00:23, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Gumbear, no one here appears to have misunderstood your argument. They're simply not buying it. This is the point where it probably makes sense to direct you toward the guideline WP:LISTEN, and the essays WP:1AM and WP:STICK. You are not the first good-faith editor to have found yourself in a similar situation and you will certainly not be the last.

Everyone else here should feel completely fine about ignoring repetitious questioning should it persist. Cheers, Generalrelative (talk) 00:44, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

RfD notice(s)

"Anti white racism" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Anti white racism and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 4#Anti white racism until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:38, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

"Anti-white sentiment" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Anti-white sentiment and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 4#Anti-white sentiment until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:38, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

"Racism against whites" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Racism against whites and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 4#Racism against whites until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:38, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

"Anti-White Racism" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Anti-White Racism and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 4#Anti-White Racism until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Sangdeboeuf (talk) 22:39, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Category:Anti-white racism

Per WP:CAT, pages are categorized by listing essential—defining—characteristics of a topic. Placing this page in Category:Anti-white racism necessarily implies that anti-white racism exists and that "reverse racism" is defined by it. This does not reflect the majority view among reliable sources and should be undone in my opinion. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 02:30, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Tend to agree with Sangdeboeuf here. Honestly the example I gave in my edit summary isn't the strongest, but i think the principle still stands that just because some people profess that thing A is a thing B, that doesn't make B a defining feature of A. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 05:38, 13 January 2023 (UTC)