Talk:Quentin Crisp

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Transgender

Crisp came out as transgender in a posthumously published biography - thus, shouldn't pronouns used in the article be changed to reflect this in accordance with MOS:GENDERID? Penguinsexploring (talk) 15:10, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

He was a man. That means we do not call him a woman. -Roxy the elfin dog . wooF 15:19, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Crisp came out as transgender. If Crisp was still alive, then the pronouns would undoubtedly be changed; my question is whether or not the policy is different for someone who came out posthumously. Penguinsexploring (talk) 15:28, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Penguinsexploring, only if Crisp himself started referring to himself using female pronouns, which as far as I can tell he never did. He never lived as a woman, never self-identified publicly as one, and mentions the issue only briefly in a reflection which is mainly about his life as a gay man. In short: you need more and better sources, and they need to use female pronouns, otherwise this is a novel synthesis. Guy (help!) 17:00, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

JzG I am not sure how someone saying "I’m transgender." and "I no longer see myself as homosexual, though it is a word I have used to describe myself and which others have understandably used to describe me. I don’t actually see myself as a man"and "the only thing I have wanted and didn’t get was to be a woman. It will be my life’s biggest regret." and "in spite of my actual fate being that of a woman trapped in a man’s body." makes one think they use he/him pronouns (those lines are quoted from chapter one of her last memoir and can be viewed easily at this address - https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/11/21/quentin-crisp-reflects-on-trans-identity-in-exclusive-final-autobiography/). If Crisp says she's a woman with no other explanation then it is to be inferred that we are to use the pronouns most women use when referring to Crisp. Ergo, it makes most sense to refer to her - as someone who came out as a trans woman, admittedly posthumously - with she/her. Yes in that chapter she says that she relates to and can be related to by gay men, but she also says that she is not one. She lived the life of a gay man because it was only at the end of her life that she embraced who she really was. That doesn't mean we should only look at her past to say who she was. Surely her latest self-identification is the most important thing? - Lacybi

We should certainly mention this in the lead, which we don't now. What pronouns to use I leave to wiki-theologians. Johnbod (talk) 20:58, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

No objection to putting this in the body text somewhere, and letting consensus decide if it should go in the lead. Lets see what reliable sources say with regard to this, so that we can reflect this properly. (+ + + Searches for sources + + +) Yep, reliable sources still dont call him a woman, so neither should we. The mass changes to the text are disruptive and should be treated that way. -Roxy the sceptical dog. wooF 16:07, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

That's big of you Roxy! It is in the text, right at the bottom, but is significant enough for the (too short) lead. Johnbod (talk) 00:30, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Man, this is borderline transphobic. Saturdayopen (talk) 08:21, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Roxy the dog I'm not sure what sources can be more reliable than the latest work of the person in question but do go on Lacybi — Preceding undated comment added 18:34, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Crisp obviously identifies as a trans woman and thus the pronouns should be she/her. Wheeln4444 (talk) 02:17, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

That's not necessarily true. Trans women do not necessarily have she/her pronouns - as they can choose to have whatever pronouns they want - or none at all. The article should only be amended if a source is found saying that Crisp had she/her pronouns. Otherwise, they should be kept as he/him. Additionally, since Crisp was a trans woman - and the article says this - I think it should be amended to reflect this (changing the description of him as a 'rent boy' to him as a 'prostitute' since he was female, editing the categories at the bottom to include his transness, amending the descriptions of him as a gay man etc). A lot of editors have left comments here saying that the article should be amended to describe Crisp's transness, and therefore @Roxy the dog should take this into account, rather than ignoring people like they did with @Wheeln4444 92.0.35.8 (talk) 20:31, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

I should have clarified before that while it is true that gender identify doesn't always equal pronouns, that is something that Crisp likely never considered because such a thing wasn't as considered. She might've not felt the need to specify pronouns because it may have not seen necessary. She's probably understand that saying you're a woman would lead people to refer to you with female pronouns and if she wanted to be called male ones, she would've specified so. Wheeln4444 (talk) 20:56, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

That's true, but I think it's best to keep the pronouns as he/him unless we find a source saying that he specified other/no pronouns. 92.0.35.8 (talk) 21:16, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

If you agree with me, then how can you deny using she/her? Wheeln4444 (talk) 03:47, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

I already explained (also I'm a trans woman just to be clear, not a transphobe trying to be rude) 92.0.35.8 (talk) 19:17, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

But you said you agree with me. Wheeln4444 (talk) 03:15, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

You know what, you're right. 92.0.35.8 (talk) 02:03, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I have amended the article to include her pronouns in accordance with WP:MOS:DEADNAME 92.0.35.8 (talk) 02:16, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

@Discospinster keeps edit warring - despite the fact that we have already reached a consensus. They keep on saying there is no source for Crisp's pronouns and that she only came out as transgender - despite WP:MOS:DEADNAME, despite the fact we already reached a consensus, despite the fact that the bottom of the article literally already stated that Crisp realised she was "a trans woman, not a gay man" at the end and despite the fact that the sources already describe Crisp's own account of talking about being female. @Firefangledfeathers I've noticed that you edit gender-related articles a lot and seem to be extremely professional regarding these matters - would you mind mediating this? I am trying to be calm and polite. 92.0.35.8 (talk) 02:34, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Please stop reading things into the article that aren't there. Crisp did not anywhere say he was a transwoman. He said he was transgender. He did not say that he preferred feminine pronouns. Besides, there is no consensus here, only you and one other editor decided that he was a transwoman and should be referred to with she/her pronouns. ... discospinster _talk 02:39, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

That is not true. In chapter 1 of their autobiography "The Last Word" Crisp said I never came ‘out’ as transgender or gay because I was never ‘in’ and I’ve never known anything except the life I have. I either lived in the dream world in which I was a woman or else I lived awkwardly in the outside world where I was inadequate. The only difference is that now I live my whole life unified by the fact that I can live in the outer world the way I live in my head. Emphasis mine. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:29, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Hi 92. I don't think I can substantively weigh in here without worsening a potential WP:CANVASS issue. This is a tough enough call that you might post a neutral invitation to this discussion at WT:LGBT. I'd be happy to help craft the notice if you post at my user talk or yours (ping me). Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:45, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Okay, thank you very much. I will do that when I wake up. 92.0.35.8 (talk) 02:48, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

The latest work of the person literally says that Crisp was a trans woman. It is in the article already 92.0.35.8 (talk) 20:33, 25 April 2022 (UTC)

He said he was transgender, not a transwoman. ... discospinster _talk 02:22, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

At the age of ninety, it has finally been explained to me that I am not really homosexual, I’m transgender. I now accept that... I no longer see myself as homosexual, though it is a word I have used to describe myself and which others have understandably used to describe me. I don’t actually see myself as a man though, of course, I know I’m not physically a woman... Now, for the rest of this book you will have to forgive me. Having labeled myself homosexual and having been labeled as such by the wider world, I have effectively lived a ‘gay’ life for most of my years. Consequently, I can relate to gay men because I have more or less been one for so long in spite of my actual fate being that of a woman trapped in a man’s body.[1]

Saying that my actual fate being that of a woman trapped in a man’s body, I don’t actually see myself as a man though, of course, I know I’m not physically a woman, and I am not really homosexual, I’m transgender, seems to me to mean that Crisp is saying that they are a transgender woman. I will note though that recent sources (even LGBT-focused ones) still seem to go with "he", so I suppose that is what we should do too: [2][3][4]. Endwise (talk) 13:51, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

The MOS's guidance is that the article should use she/her pronouns, "even if it does not match what is most common in sources". I agree, a straight-forward interpretation of the autobiography excerpt makes it very clear that Crisp had a female gender identity, and desired to have a female gender presentation. Thus she should be gendered using female pronouns. Someone will inevitably propose "no pronouns" as a "compromise" (ala James Barry), something I'd strongly oppose applying here. Wikipedia editors should not take it upon ourselves to determine who is "really" trans. Notified via WT:LGBT. RoxySaunders (talk · contribs) 16:03, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm still not so sure. Crisp did actually stop just shy of explicitly saying "I identify as a woman" or something of the sort; even in PinkNews's extract of the autobiography, they still went with "he". We have secondary reliable sources which use "he", and a primary source which requires us to make some (admittedly relatively minor) leaps to get from the text of the source to she/her pronouns. Secondly, I would imagine that in writing even if it does not match what is most common in sources they presumably didn't mean even if it does not match any sources at all, right? Endwise (talk) 16:21, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I have found this: Although Crisp identifies as a trans woman in The Last Word, he also continues to refer to himself as a homosexual man, in line with the way he has lived his life, and does not specify any preference for an alternate pronoun. For that reason, I have continued to use the male pronoun in this review.[5] I haven't read The Last Word, but I'm willing to trust the author of this review on what's in it. Endwise (talk) 16:32, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

The Last Word is included within Kindle Unlimited. It'll take me a short while to read it fully, but I'll report back after doing so. Hopefully with useful quotes that weren't covered in existing extracts or reviews. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:40, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Should Template:MOS-TW be added here? — Tazuco 16:23, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Added, as well as a separate ds/talk notice, just in case it is felt that MOS-TW is unneeded. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:35, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Also notified by WT:LGBT. I agree with RoxySaunders reading of MOS:GENDERID, the guidance is clear that we should use she/her pronouns. Likewise I agree with Roxy's analysis of the autobiography excerpt based on my own reading of it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:32, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Please note that not all people who identify as transgender use gendered pronouns. As far as we know Crisp might have gone with they/them or a neopronoun. There is too much original research going on here. ... discospinster _talk 20:35, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I've just finished reading all bar the final chapters of The Last Word. I've included quotations and paraphrases from it below.

While I can see why you've linked to WP:NOR, respectfully the words that Quentin did use in the autobiography are crystal clear. Quentin did not ever see themselves as a man, their internal state from childhood was consistently that of a woman, and they explicitly rejected that label when describing themselves. While we do not have an explicit statement as to whether Quentin used, or would go on to use either she/her, they/them, or a neopronoun, I think we do have to nonetheless give substantial weight to how Quentin described themselves; as a woman. That internal sense of self coloured all of their interactions throughout their life.

That said, I am in two minds at the moment whether to use she/her or they/them pronouns. While Quentin knew from a child they wanted to be a woman, they did not have the vocabulary to express it until shortly before their death. I think we are doing a disservice to our readers though by using he/him pronouns, especially when Quentin's latest (and last) expressed gender self-identification was that of a woman. While after reading the words in the autobiography I am leaning more towards she/her, I also recognise the ambiguity as we do not have an explicit statement "I use X pronouns now". As such I would also not be opposed to using they/them as a gender neutral option, in lieu of a definitive statement. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:15, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

It is a disservice to the readers to assume that Crisp would use she/her pronouns even if that vocabulary was known, being that not all transgender people, transwomen, or even cisgender women use she/her. I've seen in other articles about people who have stated that they are trans, there is a mad rush to change all the pronouns, despite that the subject did not state a preference. This is a textbook example of original research. Unless Crisp explicitly preferred feminine or neutral pronouns, it is presumptuous (and possibly misgendering) for Wikipedia editors to assign them. ... discospinster _talk 21:43, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Then how do you propose we proceed, as it is abundantly clear from the text in The Last Word that Quentin did not see themselves as a man? If it is presumption to assume she/her pronouns despite seeing themselves as a woman internally, then it is also presumption to continue to use he/him pronouns despite the rejection of masculinity. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:49, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

In Portuguese Wikipedia, it's recommended that gendered language should be avoided in cases of non-binary people. It's not uncommon to use the individual's name in the place of the pronoun in English, a phenomenon called nullpronominal. Another way is using one/one's.— Tazuco 00:09, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

The same we do with every article where the person's pronouns are not explicitly stated with a reliable source: keep it as it is. 14:38, 2 May 2022 (UTC) ... discospinster _talk 14:38, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

The idea that the existence of people whose pronouns don't align with their binary gender means we should avoid using she/her is absolutely ridiculous. That is an edge case - the overwhelming majority of both cis and trans woman primarily use she/her pronouns. In lack of hard evidence the idea that a situation that applies in something like 1% (and I'm being generous with that, I'd wager) of cases is a reason to avoid the situation that applies in the other 99% has no reasonable basis. I recognize the desire to be inclusive of people with non-conforming pronouns - but this is activism gone too far and the suggestion it's better to use he/him for a trans woman than possibly risk them not actually using she/her is absolutely self-defeating if we're aiming for respect. Continuing to use he/him for a known trans woman is unacceptable, and against MOS:GENDERID. Given the state of sourcing, they/them and avoidance of pronouns when possible seems amicable as a solution, though I think we'd be plenty justified using she/her. LittleLazyLass (Talk | Contributions) 03:38, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Not to mention users use she/her in articles of many cisgender drag queens. — Tazuco 13:04, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm not upset at you but please bear in mind that 'transwomen' is a transphobic term, and that 'trans women' is the correct phrase to use in circumstances like the one you were talking about here. 92.0.35.8 (talk) 00:41, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

Really? that's silly imho. potato potato. - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 07:01, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

A lot of transphobia is. There's a paragraph in Trans woman#Terminology that explains why 'transwoman' is seen as transphobic. Sideswipe9th (talk) 15:55, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

By your logic, shouldn't everyone on Wikipedia have their pronouns removed unless they specifically specified theirs? Wheeln4444 (talk) 17:34, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Notes from The Last Word

So I've read through all but the last couple of chapters of the book. Those final chapters I will complete tomorrow, as my focus is waning. To avoid this being struck by a WP:CCI, while I will include some direct quotes, a large portion of my reply will be paraphrased from the original source.

The most relevant content to the discussion above is from Chapter 1: Sex, Sexuality and Identity. That is not to say that transgender content is contained solely within that chapter. It is abundantly clear that Quentin was cognisant of being trans from a very young age, as early as 5 or 6, and that they lacked the vocabulary to express it until the final years of their life. Accordingly, a lot of the experiences in later chapters are told through this lens, with a lot of subtle and not so subtle comparisons drawn between Quentin's experiences and those of men and women around him. A rather large emphasis is placed in several parts upon how Quentin felt they could not live up to the expectations put upon them by virtue of being perceived as a man.

Throughout it all, it is very clear that Quentin's identity is very complex. Quentin describes themself as having only a single daydream a as a child; My daydream as a child was of growing up to be a very worldly, very beautiful woman. This daydream is later framed as a regret of sorts; The only thing in my life I have wanted and didn't get was to be a woman.. This regret, this yearning, of not being able to be a woman, repeats itself multiple times throughout the text, not only of Chapter 1, but also in other chapters. However, Quentin also goes to great pains to state that they do not consider themselves a man; I don't actually see myself as a man though, of course, I know I'm not physically a woman.

When reading the remainder of the book, you could be forgiven for thinking that this "revelation" as being trans is something that is not reflected in the vast majority of the text. However, there is a fantastic paragraph, which appears in the main article, that addresses this: Now, for the rest of this book you will have to forgive me. Having labelled myself homosexual and having been labelled as such by the wider world, I have effectively lived a 'gay' life for most of my years. Consequently, I can relate to gay men because I have more or less been one for so long in spite of my actual fate being that of a woman trapped in a man's body. I refer to myself as homosexual without thinking because of how I have lived my life.

When it comes to how to describe themselves, Quentin is quite clear that they reject being called a man. Despite a lifetime of being called as such by those around them, internally Quentin always thought of themselves as a woman, while externally they thought of themselves as "inadequate". It was only after being informed as to what transgender means that they were able to reconcile the difference between their internal and external states, something that is all to common for trans and non-binary people.

When it comes to what pronouns to use in this article, unfortunately there is not much clarity in the text. Due to the nature of this being an autobiography, in particular one that was dictated due to a physical frailty preventing use of a typewriter or computer, the text reads as a long form monologue interview. As such, the bulk of the text, outside of the fore and afterword uses first person pronouns. I suspect, though it is not definitively stated either way in the text, that the revelation that they were trans, came particularly close to the end of their life. The dictation process for the book took a period of approximately two years, and it is not made clear as to when in relation to that the revelation occurred. Had Quentin lived longer, as they died four months after finishing dictation of the autobiography, there may have been greater chance for statements to be made as to what pronouns to use.

So where does that leave us? I feel as though using he/him pronouns in the article is wrong. As I've said above, it is abundantly clear in the text that Quentin did not consider themselves a man, and only referred to themselves as such due to a lifetime of inertia and familiarity. There are many occasions where Quentin describes or alludes to themselves as a woman, dating back to some of their earliest childhood memories and dreams. However I also cannot refuse to acknowledge that both the fore and afterwords use he/him pronouns, and that we don't seem to have any statements made in the final year(s) of Quentin's life that definitively state which pronouns to use. However I feel as though his persistent desire to be a woman, and refusal to consider themselves a man needs to be acknowledged. As such, I am in two minds as to whether to use they/them, as a form of gender neutral pronouns, or she/her as it most closely matches how Quentin describes themselves internally.

There is also another elephant in the room to discuss, and one that is not mentioned in the article at all presently. Sexual identity. Quentin was celibate from age thirty, describing themself as having given up sex at that time. Quentin also explicitly describes themselves as asexual When it comes to sex, these days I'm asexual., and states I no longer see myself as homosexual, though it is a word I have used to describe myself and which others have understandably used to describe me. As such, I will open a separate talk section for how to address this in the article, as it is a major inaccuracy in our current version. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:05, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for this considered analysis. - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 21:48, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

References

Asexuality

While I don't want to distract from the conversation above with respect to which pronouns to use in the article, there was one additional thing that became clear when reading The Last Word. Sexuality. Specifically, Quentin described themselves as being asexual, having been celibate from age thirty. In addition Quentin rejected the label of homosexual, stating I no longer see myself as a homosexual, though it is a word I have used to describe myself and which others have understandable used to describe me. At present we do not mention this at all in the article, however I think it is important that we include it. As it does not look like it would fit into any of the existing sections in the article, we may wish to incorporate a new section, where we can discuss both Quentin's sexuality and gender identity. I'm not sure how to phrase it, but would like to judge support for/against before embarking upon it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:19, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm incredibly tired now - so tomorrow I will read all of the edits made to this article which I haven't already - before making a judgement about this. Although of course if other editors reach a consensus before me that's completely fair. Thank you so much! 92.0.35.8 (talk) 21:45, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I didn't have time to read them today because I slept in. I'll read them tomorrow morning. 92.0.35.8 (talk) 21:14, 2 May 2022 (UTC)

'Themselves'? Quentin was a gay man, or effeminate homosexual. He claimed to be many things that he was in reality not such as transgender, extremely poor, atheist, and now asexual. He did this for attention. Also he was a male prostitute for most of his life. The nude art modeling and 'Buy me dinner!' personal and magazine ads he ran make this extremely obvious. 100.34.234.175 (talk) 15:05, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Transgender category removal

Hi Roxy. I'm assuming when you said Already in cats that exclude these in this edit summary, you're referring to the English Male set of categories? If so, as Quentin was transgender, as is discussed in the article lead and body as cited to his last published work, why did you not remove the other set instead? Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:33, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

I left the older established categories because they are well sourced and are an honest reflection of his life as a gay man. A 20+ year posthoumously published autobiography hasn't yet changed the way the world sees him. To indulge in historical revisionism in this manner isn't right. - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 00:47, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

That goes against MOS:GENDERID, MOS:IDINFO and WP:GENDERID. With regards to common use in sources, the guidance explicitly states that we should use the person's person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. While the work was published posthumously, it still represents Quentin's latest expressed gender self-identification. Sideswipe9th (talk) 00:58, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

I think in this circumstance there's likely some leeway to use both sets of cats, despite seeming exclusive. There's no doubt they were known as a man, and famous as a man, and they recognized that, and even referred to themself that way. Also, they realized they were transgender much later in life, and published a book describing that. Both sets of categories are helpful navigational tools in this instance. Although if there were no consensus to include both, I'd probably side with the transgender cats. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:31, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

As noted in my post above, he didn't publish describing that though, did he? - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 07:10, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

@Roxy the dog: Are you implying that the content in The Last Word, where Quentin described themselves as a trans woman, does not originate from Quentin? In any event, Quentin did describe themselves as a woman, as noted in my cited summary of The Last Word posted on 1 May. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:25, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

I thought I was pretty clear, and I dont know how you reached that implication from my posts above. - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 02:19, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Then could you please clarify your comment? Because I've read the four comments you've made outside of this section, and the only one that seems relevant to this discussion is where you cast doubt on Quentin's gender identity in a way that runs counter to MOS:GENDERID. Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:46, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

There is nothing to clarify. Posts in other sections are not pertinant to this one. - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 02:49, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Ah, so you were referring to your reply at 00:47, 25 May 2022 (UTC)? So you doubt Quentin's gender identity, and that is also why in addition to removing the trans categories, you're also removing the mos-tw banner template from this page? Sideswipe9th (talk) 02:57, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Honestly, you appear to be deliberately misunderstanding me. - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 03:00, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Saying I'm deliberately misunderstanding you is a monumental failure of WP:AGF. I've already asked you to clarify your comments, because the point you are trying to make is fundamentally not clear. Sideswipe9th (talk) 03:07, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Calling Crisp a woman is a monumental failure of an encyclopeadia. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 03:43, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

So you keep insisting without any form of elaboration or explanation on why exactly ones quite clear expression of self-identity doesn't count in this respect. LittleLazyLass (Talk | Contributions) 05:27, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

I self identify as a dog. Am I a dog? Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 05:57, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Your own personal transphobia does not have any bearing on the decision making in this discussion given the fact that MOS:GENDERID is an explicit ruling in favor of trans-positive self-identification. Come up with an actual argument that has basis in how Wikipedia is run. LittleLazyLass (Talk | Contributions) 20:08, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Until just now, I have not been aware of the helicopter thing. I have struck my comment above. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 21:49, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

I had never heard of I Sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter until two minutes ago. I would without doubt not have made my struck comment had I known. -Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 22:06, 27 May 2022 (UTC)

Open an RFC on the matter. Best way to solve a content dispute. GoodDay (talk) 01:55, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I strongly agree with GoodDay's suggestion of resolving this via a content RfC.

I became aware of this dispute by way of a discussion at WP:AE. I have some suggestions.

It's best not to regard this dispute as being between two opposing "sides". It's better to try to see both sides of the debate and see whether there's a way to respectfully find an outcome that's agreeable to everyone. And it gets in the way of that to call other editors transphobic. Our WP:NPA policy makes clear that editors should comment on the content, not on the contributor

As I understand it, Crisp lived almost all of his life self-identifying as a cis gay male. Near the end of Crisp's life, Crisp wrote in an autobiography that he/they had recently come to revise that view, to instead self-identify as a trans person. That book, however, was not published until a long time after Crisp's death. Crisp is not known to have made any kind of identity transition during his life (such as a name change), other than what he wrote. Throughout Crisp's life, and for many years after, secondary sources described him as cis gay male and not as trans. Crisp was a complex person, and Wikipedia should reflect that complexity.

A problem with categories is that they tend to pigeonhole page subjects into neat boxes, whether they fit or not. For that reason, WP:DEFINING stipulates that it's best only to assign categories that really fit, and not those that are incidental. Crisp is not someone we should pigeonhole. I don't see a big problem with categorizing Crisp as both gay male and as trans. These are not contradictions. It would be a contradiction to categorize someone as both cis gay male and cis female, but that's not what's being discussed here. On the other hand, there is some logic to saying that trans is not really DEFINING here, not something that defined Crisp throughout Crisp's life. It's a borderline call, editorially. I've spent some time looking around at the available categories here, and it seems to me that Category:People with non-binary gender identities, or one or more of its subcategories, fits Crisp better than do categories that more delimited. Maybe that would be worth considering. --Tryptofish (talk) 17:27, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

While I appreciate the comments from GoodDay, Tryptofish and In actu suggesting an RfC to resolve this, I don't know if we've yet reached the point where an RfC is indicated. Per WP:RFCBEFORE, I'm not sure if we've thoroughly discussed the matter yet here. Though if consensus here is that the discussion is exhausted, then I won't oppose it and will happy work on formulating a question, as well as supporting materials for/against. Having seen so many snap RfCs in this topic area, that have caused issues later; one notable example being the RfCs at J.K. Rowling and the impact those had upon the featured article review, I hope you all can understand my caution at not wanting to rush into one unprepared.

@Tryptofish: a lot of what informs us of Crisp's gender identity comes from Chapter 1 of The Last Word, as well as some secondary sources based upon that chapter. In that chapter Crisp describes themselves exclusively as a trans woman. There are some relevant quotes supporting this in the section above Talk:Quentin Crisp#Notes from The Last Word. Because of this clear and consistent expression by Crisp, I would be very hesitant to use non-binary categories in this case. And as much weight as I'd give to WP:DEFINING, I would give substantially more to MOS:GENDERID which plainly says that we should use the person's latest expressed gender identity even when that conflicts with what is commonly written about them in reliable sources. There is a rather substantial table at MOS:IDINFO#Discussion timeline, and I think the consensus established in the Gloria Hemingway move request, from February this year, shows us quite clearly how to apply GENDERID in circumstances such as this with respect to how to sensitively address a biographical subject's gender identity post-death. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:46, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

It's pretty easy to get me to change my mind, and I just now read your section above, about the notes from the autobiography. I haven't read the book for myself, and I would want to hear from other editors who have been more active on this page. I would modify what I said before, in light of what Crisp said about feelings from an early age. On the other hand, it's very clear from your own analysis how complicated this becomes (as in what you say about the pronouns), and I would want to be careful not to oversimplify a complicated person's life. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:57, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I dont have much appetite for this discussion any longer, but feel that Crisp's notability derives directly from his life as a gay man, not as a transgender woman. The large gap between his death and the posthoumous publication of his last autobiography disclosing his feelings, ("it was explained to him" that rather than being a gay man etc) and noting also that he made no reference to personal pronouns either. We should not change history until reliable sources do. I doubt they will. - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 21:02, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Per Roxy, I can see a lot of value in examining what secondary sources say about the matter. Are there secondary sources that comment on the trans-related statements in the autobiography?

Question: do I understand the following correctly? Crisp's only comments about being trans are in the book, not in things said in public. And Crisp continued to be visible and prominent in public until fairly late in life. I ask this because it has a direct bearing on the latest expression of gender identity. If there were approximately simultaneous expressions that were different from each other, we need some clear rationale for not treating them equally. I'm not asserting that a written book should be given less WP:WEIGHT, but I'm raising the question of how exactly we should apportion that weight. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:12, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Take a look at MOS:IDINFO, which states Refer to any person whose gender might be questioned with gendered words (e.g. pronouns, "man/woman", "waiter/waitress") that reflect the person's latest expressed gender self-identification as reported in the most recent reliable sources, even if it does not match what is most common in sources. That MOS page also has a list of community discussions, so it's easy to review and see the broad community consensus. Other sources not using their latest expressed gender identity isn't an out. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:28, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I think Sideswipe will be able to answer with more authority, but this only became public knowledge with the publication of the Last Word. - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 21:30, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

SFR, I think I do understand the guidelines, and I was not saying that we should use a secondary source to disregard Crisp's own self-description. But secondary sources are valuable in putting things in context. And I'm fine with using Crisp's latest expressed gender self-identification, but I want to know whether we are dealing with a single latest expression, or some simultaneous things that need to be carefully balanced. Now, I've just read the source at [6], and it does indeed make me inclined to believe that Crisp wanted to be understood as trans. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:44, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Unless we have a reliable source for "things said in public", and unless they say something as forceful and unequivocal as Crisp describing herself as a "woman trapped in a man's body", we should give due weight to the book. Continuing to "be visible and prominent in public" without expressing as feminine (at a time when Crisp had not yet even publicly come out as transgender) is not the same as re-declaring one's gender identity. RoxySaunders (talk · contribs) 21:51, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I guess I didn't word it clearly enough. I did not mean that public visibility should be the basis for original research for us, based on what Crisp looked like or acted like. I meant that someone who is prominent and visible in public might, perhaps, have said things in public. As you correctly note, the issue is "things said in public". And I'm asking whether there was anything like that. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:58, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

See my answer below (21:55, 28 May 2022 (UTC)) for why "things said in public" is complicated in this case. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:00, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Should you wish to read the full chapter, and if you have Kindle Unlimited, the book is available in that collection. The first chapter is 18 pages long, and the extract in PinkNews is a truncated version of pages 1-7. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:00, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't even have Kindle Limited. I'd be interested in whether anything in the full 18 pages would alter what the truncated extract sounds like. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:08, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Once my tablet is recharged, I'll do a full side by side analysis of the extract to find out what has been cut. I'll also search for and link the other three extracts as mentioned at the bottom of the first. There is at least one paragraph where Crisp talks about their mother buying them ballet shoes and letting them attend dance class once, from page 2, that is missing entirely from the extract. I'm doubt I'll be able to provide the full text though without causing a copyvio, though if you're happy for summary notes I'll be able to type those up. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:28, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

A summary of what's relevant is fine with me. We can always ask follow-up questions about what it says. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:50, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Cool. I'll try and get time to write that tomorrow afternoon (UK time) as a subsection to this discussion. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:52, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

@Tryptofish: Subsection is posted below. I've included the links to the other two excerpts published by PinkNews, however as they are from other chapters I've not done any paraphrasing on the missing paragraphs. There's also a substantial amount of content from the first chapter that isn't in the excerpt, and I wouldn't be able to do justice to in paraphrasing. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:20, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Re secondary sources: Yes, though it will take some time for me to filter them all based upon our reliability criteria.

Crisp's only comments about being trans are in the book, not in things said in public. And Crisp continued to be visible and prominent in public until fairly late in life. The answer to that is complex. The revelation, for lack of a better word, to Crisp that there was a word (transgender) for the feelings they had and had hidden since they were a child came very late in life. While an exact date is not in the text, it happened sometime around Crisp's ninetieth birthday. Crisp died no more than 11 months later. The book The Last Word was written over the course of two years, from 1997 to July 1999. Because of Crisp's physical health issues at the time, having lost the use of their left hand leaving them unable to use a typewriter or computer, the book was written as a series of recordings between Quentin and Philip Ward. According to the afterword in the book, Crisp's death happened shortly after arrival in England as they were about to embark upon a tour of their show. There are to my knowledge no reports as to what Crisp would have said in those shows, nor what was said in the shows delivered during the December 1998 run of the show in New York.

The issue isn't so much that there was multiple simultaneous expressions of Crisp's gender identity, and to a lesser extent sexuality, it's that there was a very short period of time, no more than 11 months, between Crisp learning about the concept of gender identity, and their death. Despite the eighteen year gap between the final recording session and the eventual publication of the book, which was caused by Philip Ward's grief preventing him from transcribing the sessions, the book itself represents Crisp's final expression of their gender identity. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:55, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, that's very helpful. So it sounds likely that, due in significant part to health limitations, it was unlikely, and probably not reliably sourced, that Crisp would have said things in public around the time of the book dictation, that were differing from what the book says. In that case, I'm increasingly thinking that Crisp's latest self-expression on the topic was that Crisp was trans. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:04, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm still taking all of this in, but while it sounds increasingly to me like the correct way for us to present Crisp's identity is as trans, Crisp may not have expressed a clearly trans pronoun preference. That might mean characterizing, and categorizing, Crisp as trans, while also being guided by secondary sources as to what pronouns to use in Wikipedia's voice. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:17, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I will need to check my copy of the book again, and my tablet is currently charging so I can't do this quickly. However I do not believe it was explained to him to be in any way a fair representation of what Crisp actually said in the book.

I've also seen many variations of sentiments like they are only <gay/lesbian/trans/non-binary/etc> because it was explained to them, both on and off wiki. Most often it is said against someone who comes out as one or more of the LGBT+ identities later in life, and is said almost exclusively by heterosexual cisgendered individuals, typically from a position of ignorance. The individuals who say such things typically cannot and do not understand what it is like to know that you are different in some way, but be entirely unable to express the why or how for that difference. While it is becoming less of an issue as societal attitudes to LGBT+ identities become more relaxed, and media portrayals of LGBT+ individuals become more sympathetic and multi-dimensional, it is still a fact that many LGBT+ individuals are in the closet because they lack the vocabulary to understand and express fundamental aspects of their personhood. This is also true by the way, for people with late in life diagnoses of autism, ADHD, dyslexia, or any other Neurodiversity. When someone is told Hey, do you know what X means? Cause I think that fits you. and then they later go on to embrace that identity, they aren't that identity because it was explained to them. They were always that identity, they simply lacked the vocabulary to express it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 21:27, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I particularly do not agree with "They were always that identity" - Roxy the grumpy dog. wooF 21:31, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

No? To give a personal example. I was diagnosed in my thirties as autistic. I knew from when I was a kid, around 4 years old, that the way I perceived and interacted with the world was very different from my peers. Growing up in Northern Ireland, at the tail end of The Troubles, autism wasn't a thing here unless you were, to use the language of the time, profoundly affected. To use the language of now, low-functioning. It wasn't until I was in high school that I encountered my first what we would now call high-functioning autistic. While I knew I very easily related to, and quickly became friends with that person, because of a great deal of trauma over childhood bullying and sectarianism, I couldn't link why I related so much to that person with my own experiences.

Many years passed, and it was only after an acute and severe mental health crisis that I was assessed for autism and received the diagnosis. While I now call myself autistic, it is only because I now have that vocabulary that I am able to do so. I was however also autistic when I was 4 and 11 years old, I simply lacked an ability to express that.

Now obviously sexuality and gender identity are not mental health issues, nor are they differences in development in the same way that autism and ADHD are. But they are both innate. For most people, gender identity is established by the time they are 4 or 5 years old, with some outliers expressing gender non-conformity as young as 2 years old. And we know from The Last Word that Crisp thought of themselves as a woman sometime around age 5 or 6. What Crisp lacked, in no small part due to the era when he was born, was a way to express what we now know to be gender identity. Crisp didn't learn of the way to express that until they were 90 years old. However lacking the ability to express that identity does not prevent someone from having that identity. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:23, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Comment - I have been following this discussion for a long time and contributing to it only little, because I find the case difficult (and not easily sorted out by UPPERCASE).

What I am ready to say, is that I think there is a very strong case for the use of they/them pronouns in this article - not because Crisp ever expressed a pronoun preference of any kind, to my knowledge, but because there are strong objections to the use of masculine and feminine pronouns, and the uncertainty about which gendered pronouns might be "better", or more compliant with policy, seems not to be resolvable. We are fortunate to have, in English, an appropriate set of pronouns for persons whose gender is not known, or (as in this case) not readily and authoritatively defined. Newimpartial (talk) 22:05, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

What you've said about pronouns is my feeling as well, and it's certainly why I've been using they/them pronouns when talking about Crisp. However that almost certainly will be a separate lengthy discussion, and I'm not sure we actually have any guidance from the MOS either for or against use of they/them in circumstances such as this. I would suggest that such a discussion could happen in parallel to the one on appropriate categories to use, because the categories that formed the basis for opening this discussion are not explicit to trans women. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:31, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I've just been looking through List of transgender people. It looks like, generally, WP uses pronouns that correspond to the gender identity the person lived under, but I notice some inconsistency from page to page for biographies of persons who lived over a century ago, particularly some persons who presented with their trans identity for only a brief period, and presented with their birth identity before and after. With Crisp, it looks like we have a person with a stated identity as trans, but who generally presented as a gay man rather than as a trans woman. The extract from the first chapter of Crisp's book includes discussion of how Crisp did not live as a woman, but in hindsight wished to have done so. I would not want to use pronouns that other people assigned to Crisp, but I also would not want to use pronouns that Crisp did not want for (them)selves. Some pages simply do not use pronouns at all, as in always referring to "Crisp", although it requires some artfulness to avoid awkward sentences. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:47, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Yeah. I've been thinking for a while now, due to inconsistent use on other articles, that this is an area where we actually need more guidance in the MOS. Though given the wide diversity of opinions on use of Singular they, I do wonder if we are perhaps at a juncture where we could have an RfC on supporting use of it in cases of pronoun ambiguity like this, especially as it sidesteps the issues surrounding rewriting content to use a subject's name in place of any pronoun at all. Such a discussion would best be framed as one of causing least harm to a BLP subject and their friends and family. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:59, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) In the space of all possible outcomes, I don't vehemently oppose they/them here. There is precedent for avoiding gendered language in ambiguous or unverifiable gendered subjects, like James Barry, Chevalier d'Éon, and Thomas(ine) Hall, but I'm really not personally convinced that Crisp meets the same criteria, and I strongly think we should cede to self-ID over gender expression here. Using they/them for subjects who don't explicitly request those pronouns has faced opposition both from snot-nosed prescriptivists insisting it's "ungrammatical", and from good-faith contributors who consider it to be misgendering by omission. Certainly, it would be absolutely preferable to For most of Crisp's life, Crisp identified as a gay man, but in Crisp's autobiography, Crisp wrote that it had been explained to Crisp that Crisp was transgender. RoxySaunders (talk · contribs) 23:28, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

What strikes me about the situation is that the text that you quote - which I am not wedded to, but which is more accurate than not - would require us, by a strict reading of MOS:GENDERID, to use she/her throughout the article. I do not believe that to be the most appropriate outcome, though I also am not a fan of IAR as a sole policy grounds for making any particular editorial decision. Epistemological modesty - not knowing the "correct" gender for Crisp - provides the basis for they/them, and strikes me as the path to meet the demands of ethics, accuracy, and communicating with our readers simultaneously. Newimpartial (talk) 23:47, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

I don't think that there would be a contradiction in us treating Crisp's identity as trans, while also using he/him pronouns. I'm not advocating for that, but I think it's a possibility that can remain as one of the available options. If, and I emphasize if, a careful review of Crisp's own words leads to that combination, then I would want to defer to Crisp's own choices rather than to editor preferences. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:53, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Since it was mentioned. I'd recommend 'not' using the pronouns "they/them" & instead use the surname of the person. That's if the pronouns "he/him", are being rejected. GoodDay (talk) 01:01, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

At times, I have edited to remove all personal pronouns from articles where "they" was controversial (because the subject had expressed a preference for no personal pronouns at all, or where editors felt that "they" was misleading about the subject's pronoun preference).

However, there isn't anything more confusing about a well-written article using "they" than there is about a well-written article using "he" or "she". People who think "they" will confuse readers about a singular subject are generally either poorly acquainted with English usage, or are allowing their bias against "preferred pronouns" to override what their native language fluency would actually communicate to them. Newimpartial (talk) 02:26, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

The Last Word excerpt analysis

As is common with abridged extracts in this form, there are some minor differences throughout, primarily word substitutions that don't change the meaning of the underlying sentence. I won't cover these in detail as they're pretty much irrelevant unless we're wanting to quote from the exact text of the book in the article.

There are also a number of paragraphs that have been omitted. To avoid a copyvio I'll be paraphrasing them, and I'll include brief quotations from the PinkNews extract so you know where these fit in with the text that exists. As only the first excerpt contains content from the chapter where Crisp exclusively talks about their gender identity, I'll only include paraphrases of the missing paragraphs for it. If there is interest however I can summarise the missing paragraphs from the other excerpts.

Excerpt 1

This excerpt covers the content from chapter 1 of the book, pages 1 to 8. Pages 9-17 are not included.

A paragraph with a suggestion from Crisp that everyone should write a book in their life, and if that is the only book they write it should be about themselves. Inserted between paragraph ending A chance for me to have the last word. and beginning Where then should I begin?.

A paragraph on Quentin's experiences writing The Naked Civil Servant, with quotations from their literary agent that Quentin should not write too much about their childhood. Inserted after paragraph ending I'll begin with my truth, at the very beginning.

A paragraph and a sentence, with a quotation from an unnamed woman, discussing Crisp not receiving familial praise as a child. Inserted after the missing paragraph above.

A paragraph on how Crisp feels talking about their early life. Describing it akin to another reality due to how long ago it was. Crisp can't recall precise feelings, but can recall facts about places and people. Ends with statement on how a lack of sentimentality is one of the few masculine traits Crisp believes they possess. Inserted after the missing paragraph above.

A paragraph on Crisp's mother alternating between being supportive and unsupportive of Crisp's gender identity. Includes a mention of Crisp being bought ballet shoes, and attending a single dance class, believing it to be a sign of things to come. Inserted after paragraph ending So let us begin this book with that daydream.

A paragraph on how Crisp attended a mixed school (for girls and boys). Mentions how every day the boys would go out to play football (soccer for the American's among us), and refuse to play. Inserted after the last missing paragraph.

A paragraph on how Crisp never thought they were gay. Crisp never heard the world homosexual until they were 19 or 20. Crisp did know they were different from others around them, and wasn't worried about this. Inserted before the paragraph beginning I remember playing a game of make-believe when I was nine or ten

A brief paragraph about a quotation from Jan Morris, describing the quotation as a wonderful remark. The quotation from Morris read It was never a question of sex. It was a question of gender. Inserted after the paragraph ending I never dit it, and that gave way to the image that I have.

A follow-up paragraph, further extolling upon how wonderful the quotation from Morris was. Inserted after the last missing paragraph.

A paragraph on the downside to being open about what we now call gender affirming surgery. How being open can result in certain comments, and people being unable to look at any part of the body except the face for fear of being seen to be examining too closely a trans person's body. Inserted after the last missing paragraph.

A paragraph on how no-one can ask about the functionality of one's genitalia after gender affirming surgery. And how because they cannot ask, it results in a form of social ostracisation. Inserted after the last missing paragraph.

I would not be able to do justice in paraphrasing all of the content from pages 9-17. There's a lot of information in those pages, including how Crisp's gender identity informed their sexuality with particular emphasis on the disposition of men to whom Crisp was attracted to, and how in hindsight Crisp may have been happier being celibate in a monastery than degrading [themself] before strangers as [they] did.

Excerpt 2

This excerpt covers content from chapter 16 of the book, pages 183-189. Pages 190-196 are not included.

Extract 3

This excerpt covers content from chapter 17 of the book, pages 198-204. Pages 205-206 are not included.

And that's it. Sideswipe9th (talk) 16:17, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the thoughtful way you have assembled this information, which I find very helpful indeed.

After going through it all, I think that I'm coming around to the personal view that we should write about Crisp primarily as trans, and not so much as gay male. For one thing, I see Crisp making a clear and emphatic point about being asexual, which (1) makes asexuality something important for this page, and (2) argues against gay sex as a male being something that Crisp would have regarded as defining. On the other hand, there is a very clear and consistent pattern of Crisp discussing the wish to have been, instead, a woman. In Extract 3, I'm struck by the paragraph containing the sentence I don’t like nature, I like people, chiefly women. (I've considered whether it argues against having had a gay attraction to men, but I think, instead, that the "liking" is more about feeling kinship.) It comes in a paragraph that is mostly about how Crisp would have much preferred to have lived as "a middle-class woman". There's also the clear interest in Chapter 1 in gender surgery; it makes no difference for our purposes whether Crisp considered the surgery to be worth it or not. Take that with all the similar statements in Chapter 1, and there's a pretty clear latest expression of gender identity as trans. And Crisp's extensive discussion of failing health reassures me that this was, in fact, the latest expression, and that there was little likelihood of anything later or anything that was simultaneous and different.

Some follow-up questions:

1. Are there any passages where Crisp refers to themselves in the third person? If so, with what pronouns?
2. You say that Chapter 1 includes a "paragraph on how Crisp never thought they were gay." I understand that this includes not having heard about the terminology, but I'd like to clarify whether there was more. Are there any indications that Crisp also never felt like a gay male?
3. This isn't a question about Crisp's writings, but I'll throw it in here. I'd like to better understand your disinclination towards the "non-binary" category. (Not arguing, just trying to improve my incomplete understanding.) Is that just on the perception that trans would be more precise, or is there also a distinction where trans is different than non-binary (of which I am unaware)?

Thanks again. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:32, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Answers to the questions first:

1. No, not that I've seen. Crisp always refers to themselves in the first person in the book.
2. The full paragraph reads Of course, I never thought I was gay. I never heard the word homosexual until I was about nineteen or twenty, but I knoew I was different from other people because they made it perfectly obviousy to me. I wasn't worried by it nor did I think, "What shall I do to seem more like a real person?" Somehow I accepted my fate.. There are also two related sentences later in the chapter, not in the excerpt which read I actually preferred sex with these 'straight' men as it seemed to me to justify my existence. It made me feel like the real woman I was in my head. and And I can't remember who was the first or where or why, but the idea behind it all was to justify my existence. I had thought to prove myself I was really a woman by having sex with a man
3. Primarily because Crisp describes themselves consistently as a woman. There's a few different definitions for non-binary and none of them fit how Crisp describes themselves.

For one thing, I see Crisp making a clear and emphatic point about being asexual I very much agree with this. While others may have described Crisp as a gay man, Crisp themselves was quite emphatic as you say about being asexual, certainly past the age of 30.

argues against gay sex as a male being something that Crisp would have regarded as defining I'd be interested in your thoughts on the 'straight' men and prove myself quotations above in answer 2 against this thought.

I don’t like nature, I like people, chiefly women. I would be inclined to read this in terms of kinship. Crisp's views on sex in Chapter 1 were heavily based upon the sense of affirmation gained from it. By having sex with 'straight' men, it was in a way affirming Crisp's gender identity as a woman. Things like that are immensely emotionally powerful to a trans person, even or perhaps especially when they do not have the vocabulary to express that they are trans. Other than the intense yearning to be a woman, from what has been written I do not think Crisp was ever attracted to women, which is again something very commonly written about in general trans discourse on social media.

and that there was little likelihood of anything later or anything that was simultaneous and different Speaking purely speculatively, I can't help but wonder how different this conversation and others would have gone had Crisp lived another 1 to 5 years. As the situation stands, I would agree that this is a clear latest expression of their gender identity. Sideswipe9th (talk) 20:56, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

I think that you and I, at least, are on the same page here. Where you ask me about the "straight men" quote, I'm inclined to read it as a desire to have had sex with them as a straight woman, rather than as a gay man having sex with straight or closeted men. Taken together with what you quote just after it, I think it all points away from Crisp having felt like a cis gay male. I understand better about the category, and that's fine with me. As for pronouns, looks like that needs to be a separate discussion for another day. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:14, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

2023 removal of categories

@Roxy the dog: please self-revert this removal of the categories. We discussed this thoroughly in the sections above back in May 2022. There is a rough consensus from that time that Crisp was transgender, and that the categories are appropriate. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:05, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I've restored the categories, and I strongly urge editors, especially my friend Roxy, not to edit war. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:27, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Can we also do something about the awful use of "explained" (complete with scare quotes) in the intro? It doesn't seem to be in the Pink News article that is being used to source it and isn't explained (or even mentioned) in the body of the article. If the book quotation on this page is correct then the intro seems to misrepresent what Crisp was saying by means of an obtusely over-literal misinterpretation of a small fragment of his phrasing. Clearly he was saying that after the precise meanings of the various gender and sexuality labels had been explained to him he decided that "transgender" fitted him when previously he had not considered it an option. The current wording seems more to imply that somebody from some Ministry of Gender told him "Evnin' guvnor. You've been transed, mate! No point arguing, it's the Minister's orders. 'eres a leaflet explainin' all abaht it." (Yes, all low ranking UK civil servants from fictitious government departments talk in a ridiculous Ealing Comedy cockney accent.) I find it hard to understand how this wording was arrived at without intention to mislead. My recommendation would be to take the "explained" bit out of the intro and then decide whether it is WP:due for inclusion in the body. If it is then we should explain it properly, with a full enough quote to actually make sense, and if it isn't then we shouldn't cover it at all. DanielRigal (talk) 15:44, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Agree, although I don’t think "explained" is intended to be SCARE, rather it’s an elided fragment of a larger quote which continues at the end of the sentence. If no other change is made that sentence should probably be re-finagled to avoid this impression, probably by paraphrasing.
Ideally reproduce the full quote in the body. A cursory glance at the surrounding context makes it crystal clear that Crisp identified as trans ("my actual fate being that of a woman trapped in a man’s body"). Summarize in the lede as realized he was actually transgender, or similar. –RoxySaunders 🏳️‍⚧️ (💬 • 📝) 17:13, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

It's been about a year since I last read the book, so I'd need to re-read it again to be sure, however in my comment at 21:27, 28 May 2022 (UTC), I did say that I believed it was explained to him to not be a fair representation of the content of the book. The current use of it in the article has lead to enough confusion that one editor added the trans man categories. I think, given what Crisp has written and how clearly they put forward their points on their gender identity in the book, we should be clearer in the article that in the final year or so of their life they came to the realisation that they were a trans woman.

It does leave us with the pronoun issue we had in May of last year. Even with the time that has passed since that last discussion, I don't know if we have a right way to handle this however. Using he/him pronouns for a trans woman feels wrong to me as an editor, and is wrong per the relevant content guideline which states that we should use the gendered words that reflect the person's most recent expressed gender identity, in this case a woman. But at the same time, Crisp never said in the book or elsewhere that I'm aware of for which pronouns to refer to them by, so simply using she/her also seems wrong to me. That leaves they/them, or the James Barry lack of pronouns. I dunno. Maybe after reading the book again I'll have a clearer idea on this. Sideswipe9th (talk) 17:28, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

About the "explained" issue, I'd like to suggest changing "...Crisp wrote in an autobiography that it had been "explained" to him that he was "not really homosexual", but was transgender", to "...Crisp wrote in an autobiography that he eventually came to feel that he was "not really homosexual", but was transgender". I think that is consistent with the sourcing, and eliminates the problem

On the issue of pronouns, I'm reluctant to change from the "he, him" structure. This is a complicated matter, which is OK, because people are complicated. But it seems to me that Crisp always, throughout his life, accepted being addressed as "he", and I'm not aware of any source in which Crisp said that he would have preferred, in hindsight, to have been addressed as "she" (or "they"). (Are there any good-quality biographical sources that refer to Crisp as something other than "he"?) The same autobiographical writings where the "explained" issue comes up also include Crisp commenting repeatedly about how, in hindsight, he would have been happier living as a woman, but I don't recollect anywhere where he says that this was about how people referred to him. It's as though his "most recent expressed gender identity" never included an expressed wish for pronouns, and we risk OR if we decide to create such a wish. But, admittedly, that's complicated. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:12, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

...Crisp wrote in an autobiography that he eventually came to feel that he was "not really homosexual", but was transgender - Works for me! Do we want to specify trans woman here? In the chapter on Crisp's gender identity, they said a lot about their internal perception was that they were a woman. For example I actually preferred sex with these 'straight' men as it seemed to me to justify my existence. It made me feel like the real woman I was in my head.

On pronouns, yeah it's complicated. On other biographical sources, at the time of the last discussion I don't believe any had been published after The Last Word. A quick search on Google Books isn't bringing up anything more recent than Nigel Kelly's 2011 biograph of Crisp, so I don't think that's changed.

I don't recollect anywhere where he says that this was about how people referred to him At the risk of going a bit into OR territory, based on sentence about sex with straight men, you could reasonably extrapolate that Crisp would have found being referred to as a woman with she/her pronouns affirming of their gender. But in lack of reliable sources that's a tough sell to actually implement as she/her pronouns in the article. Sideswipe9th (talk) 22:19, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I am pretty sure that you are correct but if Crisp never actually said "trans woman" or "she/her" then we can't really say it either. It is better to stick as close to Crisp's own wording as possible and trust our readers to understand. DanielRigal (talk) 22:37, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

On trans woman, I think the sourcing from the autobiography is reasonably strong to state this and I'd defer to my notes section from last year for explaining how. There are also third party sources, like this review of The Last Word that describe Crisp as such

On the pronouns, there's nothing that helps us in the book. There's a couple of sources that that use they/them, but nothing consistently. The more that I think about this, the more that I think that this is best handled as a 20th century version of James Barry, and that because of the confusion and lack of clarity from sources published after Crisp that we should maybe just avoid pronoun usage entirely. There is precedence for this (ie Barry's article), and it would be in keeping with the first paragraph of MOS:GENDERID. Sideswipe9th (talk) 23:10, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Going back to your question about whether we would want to specify trans woman, as opposed to transgender, my thinking would be not to do that. Given the complexities of all of what we are discussing here, I think this is a case of less is more. In other words, it's probably better not to specify too much, and it isn't like we would need to specify in order to avoid confusing the reader.

For pronouns, I think the idea of not using any pronouns at all is something we should treat in terms of what makes for the clearest and least awkward writing, case by case. If there's a sentence where it works well to say "Crisp", then do that; but where the sentence flows better if we say "he", there's nothing wrong with doing that instead. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:42, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Gender identity

@StrangeBanana I noticed you introduced a new section Gender Identity with quotations and claims. I have reviewed the sources thoroughly and cannot find support. You must cite the book and page where Crisp states specifically your claim: "At the age of 90 Crisp wrote that he had 'accepted' that he was transgender." The source provided: [7] does neither. Furthermore, please time stamp the YouTube clip for direct reference. As well, the quote that you have provided does not support the claim that Crisp saw himself as a transgender woman. This entire section seems motive driven to introduce something that other sources do not back. I am bringing the topic here rather than reverting the entry so that better, and multiple, sources can be brought forth to better back the initial claim. At present, the 2 quotes do not. Maineartists (talk) 23:56, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

There are some quotes in the section above that demonstrate this. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:58, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Hello, Maineartists. I added the title because I thought the subject deserved its own, discrete section apart from the other info. The first quote/source was not added by me, so I cannot speak to the veracity of the claim; the only addition I made there was to clarify the contribution of Crisp's friend, Phillip, in the production of his autobiography.

As for the other section, I'm afraid I do not know how to time-stamp the YouTube clip properly - perhaps you could advise me on how to do this? The quote I provided was not intended to prove that Crisp thought of himself as either transgender or not transgender, but instead to demonstrate that his own thoughts on the subject evolved and were complex. It was my suspicion that the section might be expanded in the future. StrangeBanana (talk) 04:10, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

ScottishFinnishRadish When it comes to a very specific claim: "At the age of 90 Crisp wrote that he had 'accepted' that he was transgender" supporting quotes are subject to interpretation (see the above discussions). This in particular needs an inline RS that specifically backs the claim that Crisp said this verbatim from the book itself. Cite book At present, this line does not do that. Placing the word accepted in quotes leaves much to speculation. StrangeBanana, to time stamp: Template:YouTube. In regards to the section's expansion, in the above discussions it states that there are no further sources besides the book itself that offer more light on the subject. As exhaustive as the above discussions are, it is always best to err on the side of non-interpretation and simply providing RS that quote exactly what Crisp said and show within the source where. The time stamp on the YouTube clip will aid in this, but even the interviewer states: "It makes it very clear that you had no desire to be a woman." Thus prompting the quoted response with the added line: "I didn't want to become anything." To bring that forward into Crisp's 90s with the opening sentence, there must be a RS that states what is being claimed: "that his own thoughts on the subject evolved and were complex." Do you have the book at hand enough to provide the inline citation? Maineartists (talk) 14:49, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

I'm afraid that I do not have the book. I did not provide anything that relies upon the book for proof, but I disagree that the autobiography is the only source that can shed light on the subject. Surely Crisp's interviews, and video recordings of his very words, are interesting enough to add to the discussion?

StrangeBanana The section reads: "In The Last Word, published posthumously on the basis of transcriptions recorded by his friend, Phillip Ward, Crisp related, "Having labelled myself homosexual ... for me these past ninety years." The book needs to be referenced as a RS (with page and quote) within the inline citation to support the quote.Template: Cite Book. The "Pinknews" source does not back the quote or the claim. If you have Crisp in his own words via interviews, recordings, etc to back the claim: "At the age of 90 Crisp wrote that he had 'accepted' that he was transgender.", please introduce them. Adding this line: "Crisp's views on gender evolved over time." without several RS to back the claim: "evolved over time", also opens the case for interpretation and OR. This is a multi-layered topic that must be supported by RS and specific quotes by Crisp to state such claims. I will place WP:NEEDCITE where needed within the section. This will alert other editors who may have specific quotes and book references. Maineartists (talk) 21:21, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the book quote needs better referencing; I am simply not in a position to add them myself because, as I have said before, I did not add the quote from The Last Word and do not know where in the book it originates.

I do not believe that the phrase 'evolved over time' is controversial, given the content of the second quotation. It is quite obvious in the quote/interview I supplied that Crisp stated in 1977 that he saw himself as 'effeminate' but not a woman. Therefore, it seems quite logical to point out that the former quote from The Last Word constitutes an evolution from his perspective in 1977. StrangeBanana (talk) 20:30, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I have emended the section by removing the disputed introductory sentence, so I think it now reads more succinctly and accurately. StrangeBanana (talk) 19:34, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I'll try to fix the YouTube reference in order to direct readers to the time-stamp, thank you. And I'll also try to introduce the quote better, as you suggest. StrangeBanana (talk) 18:42, 18 October 2023 (UTC)