Talk:Prince Amedeo, Duke of Aosta (1943–2021)

The wives and children listed to Amadeo do not match with those list for his mother, Irene of Greece and Denmark. I don't know where to find the references, but whoever created those two pages should check their work

Succession to the Throne

As I understand, the defunct Italian throne would need a male heir. Amadeo's rival to the throne, Victor Emmanuel, has only one son - Emmanuel Filiberto. He, in turn, only has daughters. Provided that no future son is born to Emmanuel Filiberto, then Amadeo and his male-line descendants will eventually become undisputed heirs to the Italian throne. Am I right? Indisciplined 14:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, after Vittorio Emanuele and Emanuele Filiberto, Amedeo and Aimone are next in line. After that, I don't know what happens, whether it passes to any remaining morganatic descendants or not. Aimone is engaged to Princess Olga of Greece, and could have sons to carry on the line. Of course, EF's daughters are still young, so he could always have a son. Morhange 06:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Crown Prince of Croatia

Please red the following!!! before you engage in correcting the article. This is the position on the title:

• 15.05.1941. The three laws on the creation of crown of Zvonimir (3 days before Rome treaties!!!)which made Croatia a kingdom, signed by poglavnik Ante Pavelic, min. of domobranstvo Slavko Kvaternik, minister of justice Mirko Puk, minister of interior affairs Andrija Artuković, minister of health Ivan Petrić, etc.
• 18.05.1941. Rome treaties three articles in which the third one chooses the new dynasty
• 23.-28. February 1942. Croatian State Sabor (parliament) which had more of a approval role, approved Aimone Tomisalv II. as king with other decision made by the poglavnik.
• 10. September 1943. poglavnik Pavelic terminated ONLY articles that where on borders and military of the Rome treaties. Since the new dynasty is mentioned in article III. it is not terminated. If needed I can translate the proclamation in whole?
• 27. September 1943. Amedeo Zvonimir is born, de jure and de facto prince of Croatia
• 12. October 1943. officially king Aimone Tomislav II. abdicated AS! king of Croatia and past the rights onto his son.

In conclusion the title was not terminated before Amedeo Zvonimir was born so he held the title crown prince. Even the royal office was opened after the abdication (not for long off course). Ban kavalir (talk) 02:12, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Since Amedeo was born after his father abdicated the 'disputed' throne of Croatia, Amedeo was effectively never Crown Prince of Croatia. As for the title 'Crown Prince of Savoy'? that too wouldn't work, as his father was never 'King of Savoy'. The CP title is for 'heirs-apparent' of thrones 'only'. GoodDay (talk) 14:22, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

His father officially renounced on 12 October shortly after his birth. But Crown Prince of Savoy is a wrong title. Principe Ereditario di Croazia is what he is mentioned as in an article from the Prince of Naples website.[1] - dwc lr (talk) 14:55, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

He renounced on October 12th, but abdicated on July 31. The application of 'Crown Prince of Croatia (disputed)' would be tricky. GoodDay (talk) 15:09, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Tomislav II abdicated on October 12th, but was requested to abdicate on July 31st by his cousin. Also nobody mentioned the Crown Prince of the House of Savoy, to be exact. I have only moved to Crown Prince Amedeo, Duke of Aosta, because there was a Prince Amedeo, 3rd Duke of Aosta. He has the title of Crown Prince, and his son is the Hereditary Prince of Croatia. -- Imbris (talk) 18:25, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

Plus the fact that Amedeo assumed the headship of the House of Savoy, thus assuming the title Crown Prince of Italy and Croatia. -- Imbris (talk) 18:45, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

The title 'Crown Prince of Italy' was held by Victor Emmanuel (b. 1937). As for 'Crown Prince of Croatia (disputed)', we should first determine as to when his father's 'disputed' Croatian reign ended (July 31 or October 12). GoodDay (talk) 18:49, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

There are news articles from July August time talking about him abdicating for example [2]. - dwc lr (talk) 17:01, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

'Handed his resignation' before Amedeo's birth. That settles it, his disputed reign ended July 31, 1943. Thus Amedeo was 'never' Crown Prince of Croatia. GoodDay (talk) 18:09, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Not really or one could say Kardam, Prince of Turnovo is not Crown Prince of Bulgaria. - dwc lr (talk) 18:15, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Kardam, is not (nor ever was) Crown Prince of Bulgaria. GoodDay (talk) 18:18, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Sons of kings (deposed or otherwise) are given the title Crown Prince. - dwc lr (talk) 18:20, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

If they were born during their father's reign, yes. When Kardam was born, Bulgaria was a Communist republic. GoodDay (talk) 18:22, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Indeed but titles are still used. Amedeo's son was born in the Italian Republic. - dwc lr (talk) 18:29, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Yep, titles are used by former monarchs (pretenders) & their heirs-apparent. As for the Italian Republic, neither Amedeo's son or Victor Emmanuel's son could ever truly claim the title 'Crown Prince of Italy' (as neither was born as such). GoodDay (talk) 18:34, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

As far as the Throne of Croatia is concerned, Aimone was King until 12th October, 1943, in fact when Amedeo was born, he was given the name of Zvonimir, and when his father abdicated on 12th October, Croatian Monarchists proclaimed him "Zvonimir II, King of Croatia". Sincerely, I have never heard about the date 31st July. As far as the title of "Crown Prince" is concerned, that title was never established in Croatia. In Italy, Amedeo in not Crown Prince but Claimant to the Throne. Finally, the title of "Crown Prince of Savoy" does not exist, because the throne claimed by the Savoia family is Italy; Amedeo claims the tile of "Duke of Savoy", not Crown Prince.--SigQualc1 (talk) 19:32, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Doesn't matter. The abdication, whether before or after the birth of Amadeo, was a consequence of Italy choosing the Allied side in WW2. Italy and its dynasty (including Aimone) gave up all pretence towards the titles of Emperor of Ethiopia, King of the Albanians and King of Croatia. Furthermore this episode doesn't need to be emphasized in this article, which is abnout the son of Aimone. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 15:32, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Whatever happened on the 31st of July 1943, it was the date that Italy stopped recognizing the Independent State of Croatia. That would have been binding on the members of Italy's dynasty as well making it impossible for them to call themselves by Croatian titles. Aimone remained a member of the Italian dynasty and so did his son. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 18:20, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

References

Request for comment on the Croatian angle

I would like some comments by other editors on the recent changes made to this article. The recent edits are about changing the name of Amadeo to Amadeo Zwonimir and the newly introduced emphasis to his fathers tenure as designated King of Croatia during WW2, which would make the subject of this article Crown Prince of Croatia. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 15:43, 25 June 2015 (UTC)

Can't comment on 1. the accuracy of the sequence of events as dated; verification is needed, nor 2. the relevance of the sequence of events, since it is not clear to me the degree to which the "Kingdom of Croatia" was 1. a real national entity even though a protectorate; 2. an independent-on-paper-only puppet state; or 3. merely the territorial designation for an empty victory title, which did not pretend to be sovereign. But in terms of reliable sources on titulature of hereditary title-holders, none of the following reliable sources acknowledges Amedeo as "Crown Prince" or even "Prince of Croatia", although all refer to him by his Savoy princely and ducal titles:

1. "Burke’s Guide to the Royal Family", 1973, Montgomery-Massingberd, Hugh, ISBN 0-220-66222-3, p. 279: "HRH Prince Amedeo Umberto Constantino Giorgio Paolo Elena Maria Fiorenzo of Savoy, 5th Duke of Aosta".
2. "Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels, Fürstliche Häuser XV, 1997, ISBN 3-7980-0814-0, pp. 33,38: "(HRH) Prince Amadeus (Amadeo) Humbert Konstantin Georg Paul Elena Maria Fiorenzo Zvonimir (of Savoy), Duke of Aosta"
3. Le Petit Gotha, 2002. de Badts de Cugnac, Chantal and Coutant de Saisseval, Guy, ISBN 2-9507974-3-1, p. 604, 615: "(HRH) Amedeo de Savoie-Aoste, Prince of Savoy, Duke of Aosta"
4. "Monarchs-in-Waiting", 1973, Curley, Walter, ISBN 0-396-06840-5, p. 68: "His Royal Highness Amedeo, Duke of Aosta"
5. "Les Prétendants aux Trônes d'Europe, 1967, Valynseele, Joseph, pp. 282-283, 285: "Prince Amédée of Savoy...Duke of Aosta"
6. "Le Comte de Paris et sa Descendance", 1998, de Montjouvent, Philippe, ISBN 2-913211-00-3, pp. 343,355-358: "HRH Amedeo Umberto Constantino Giorgio Paolo Elena Maria Fiorenzo de Savoie-Aoste, Duke of Aosta, prince of Savoy, Duke of Apulia".

FactStraight (talk) 04:27, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

To me this is a question of undue weight being given to the dynastic and constitutional claim involved. The person doesn’t seem to entertain it at all and we are dealing with an episode in which a largely unrecognized puppetstate of the Axis powers in WW2 tried to establish itself as a kingdom. There also seems to be some doubt about whether that was entirely successfull, since the monarch involved never took up residence in the country involved. Now I don’t mind there being text in the article about this episode, but the article should not be changed into a platform for certain dynastic or constitutional claims on the basis of:

a) newspaper articles and publications from 1941, who’s indepencence might be questioned

b) original research, morphing the names of these people and mentioning titles they may had, too prominently in the article

c) interpretations about the consequences of the timeline

As a monarch can only abdicate his throne once, the point in time when he did that, doesn’t call for conclusions about the titulature of a person who doesn’t seem to be generally known as such.

So we have serious questions about undue weight and synthesis here. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 17:27, 26 June 2015 (UTC)

Whatever happened on the 31st of July 1943, it was the date that Italy stopped recognizing the Independent State of Croatia. That would have been binding on the members of Italy's dynasty as well making it impossible for them to call themselves by Croatian titles. Aimone remained a member of the Italian dynasty amd so did his son. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 18:19, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

I will put here some sources to help you with the subject

Two pages from the book of laws passed by the Independent State of Croatia. The three laws on the crown of Zvonimir

public declaration of the laws in the (regimes) governments official newspaper (Hrvatski Narod no.93., 16.05.1941.)

(I will translate the important part) The regulatory provision on the crown of Zvonimir

• § 1. Sovereignty (headship) of the Independent State of Croatia is represented by the crown of king Zvonimir
• § 2. Description of the crown
• § 3. This regulatory provision enters into force with the day of publication in the Narodne novine (Public newspaper)

Pavelić on the new Croatian dynasty (Hrvatski Narod, no96. 19.05.1941.

Aimone declaring stepping down as Italian officer because of his new position as king (Hrvatski Narod br.97., 20.05.1941.)

Page from the book of laws passed by Independent State of Croatia, on ending the Rome treaties.)

Also I would suggest you visit Croatian State Archives, here is the original page of the Rome Treaties from 1941. http://www.arhiv.hr/cs/groups/public/documents/document/mdaw/mda1/~edisp/web2hdarhivloc005110.jpg

Good books on the subject, with details are:

• Matković, "Designirani hrvatski kralj Tomislav II. vojvoda od Spoleta. Povijest hrvatskotalijanskih odnosa u prvoj polovici XX.st." (Designated Croatian king Tomislav II. Duke of Spoleto. History of Croatian-Italian relationships in first half of the 20th century), Zagreb 2007.

-Croatian author, whole book on the subject of Aimone Tomislav

• B. Krizman, NDH između Hitlera i Mussolinija (Independent State of Croatia between Hitler and Mussolini)

-Yugoslav author, also large number of sources Ban kavalir (talk) 15:42, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Also I would suggest this Serbian interview with prince Amedeo, where he states he doesn't use the name Zvonimir and renounce all rights to the Croatian throne now, but in some documents specially the family ones he has that name which is given to him as the heir to the Croatian throne

http://www.pressonline.rs/sr/vesti/Nedeljnik/story/201092/Kralj+Hrvatske%3A+%E2%80%9ENe+zanima+me+kruna%22.html

As I all ready recommended please use the books specialized on that subject, since they have many sources and question the matter of succession. Ban kavalir (talk) 08:18, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

I concur that these documents and their sequence suggest that Amedeo was, at least officially, briefly heir to the Croatian throne. But article titles are not based on fact or law, but on prevalent usage and the sources I cited above indicate that he is not commonly referred to with Croatian titles, therefore the article's name should not include them. But the historical facts should be explained in the article. FactStraight (talk) 17:04, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

I removed some items of OR and some editorialising about them. I left the Croatian reference in the article with the sources. There is nothing verifiable in them about his titles or about his status towards the Croatian throne. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 19:58, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Head since 2006

The consultation of the Kingdom has , in 2006 , decreed Amedeo legitimate successor of Umberto II. Quote: http://www.monarchia.it/famigliareale.htm (that's the main website of Italian monarchists) Jewels Jules (talk) 07:00, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

There is no such thing. We do not take our lead from the website of Italian monarchists. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 23:27, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

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Yes, I moved this article

My understanding of our Manual of Style means that titles are not supposed to be part of the article's title. Thus, the move. I have started a discussion thread on this topic at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography#Walled garden of "royalty". --Orange Mike | Talk 18:07, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

@Orangemike: I have replied at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Walled_garden_of_"royalty" in order to streamline the discussion in one place. Interstellarity (talk) 20:36, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 10 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – MaterialWorks 18:14, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

---

Prince Amedeo, Duke of Aosta (1943–2021) → Prince Amedeo, 5th Duke of Aosta – This would be a more natural disambiguation preferable to dates in brackets. Killuminator (talk) 04:02, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Support per nom. estar8806 (talk) ★ 13:17, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility) states in the section "Royals with a substantive title": "# Numerals are not generally used. Example: Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester, not "Prince Richard, 2nd Duke of Gloucester"."2601:249:9301:D570:D06F:58E2:AC28:1DB0 (talk) 15:56, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

  That's intended to say we don't apply them here if they're not applied elsewhere. Italy does appear to apply them to princes. estar8806 (talk) ★ 16:13, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

  I thought I'd replied to this but here it goes. Prince Richard, Duke of Gloucester obviously doesn't need a disambiguation like this man does and the convention states ''not generally used'', rather than ''not used''. Misreading of the convention on part of the opposing editor. Killuminator (talk) 17:13, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

• Support per WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION. Rreagan007 (talk) 19:47, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
• Can someone please investigate what this man is actually called in reliable English-language sources? Is the use of any of these pretended titles warranted by WP:COMMONNAME? That is a far more important consideration in my opinion. Surtsicna (talk) 22:35, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose until someone answers User:Surtsicna's question. WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION says "Using an alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English reliable sources, albeit not as commonly as the preferred-but-ambiguous title, is sometimes preferred. However, do not use obscure or made-up names." So, natural disambiguation only applies when the natural disambiguator is a commonly-used name. Celia Homeford (talk) 08:19, 15 September 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.