Talk:Petik and Sanos

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Petik and Sanos/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Amitchell125 (talk · contribs) 10:29, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

I'd be happy to review this article. Comments forthcoming in a few days. AM

I'll tweak the sources (this helps me, and does not make me someone who has "contributed significantly to the article"). AM

Review comments

Lead section

• There is a duplicate link (words should only be linked once) – Aleppo.

 Done Smpad (talk) 23:23, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

• It’s usual (but not compulsory) to include an infobox for notable people (see Template:Infobox person).

Amitchell125, I don't know why it is needed there. We don't have any images of them. We do not know their years of birth or even the exact years of death. It is not known whether they had surnames at all. I don't know whether they were subjects of the Ottoman Empire or Iran. Even the years of activity cannot be precisely calculated. It seems to me that the template is unnecessary here. With respect, Smpad (talk) 21:50, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with an infobox not being included. It would be good to find a relevant image of some sort to go at the top of the article, and I'll look to see if there is anything suitable, but if nothing can be found, that's OK. Amitchell125 (talk) 21:56, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

• I would replace servants (tax-farmers) with ‘tax-farmers’ (linked).

 Done Smpad (talk) 23:25, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

• Link silk trade (Silk Road).

 Done Smpad (talk) 23:34, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

• and India – ‘and the Indian subcontinent’ is more accurate, as the modern state of India did not exist at that time.

 Done Smpad (talk) 23:36, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

• The link to Armenian community does not seem to get where it should.

 Done Smpad (talk) 21:50, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

• Consider replacing they also held with ‘the brothers also held’ for the sake of clarity.

 Done Smpad (talk) 23:41, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

• then in Erzurum; Sanos - the text is more readable if the sentence is split (to ‘then in Erzurum. Sanos’).

 Done Smpad (talk) 23:42, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

• before his own execution also of Aleppo – ‘shortly before his own execution was the chief customs officer of Aleppo’ is clearer.

 Done Smpad (talk) 23:45, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

• There are disagreements among researchers regarding – simplify to ‘Researchers disagree about’.

 Done Smpad (talk) 23:45, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

• Unclear – ‘not fully understood’ sounds better imo.

 Done Smpad (talk) 20:03, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Names and titles

• The name Petik – Petik should be in italics as it is a term.

 Done Smpad (talk) 23:49, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

• or Bedik - Bedik should not be in bold.

 Done Smpad (talk) 23:49, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

• Sanos’ (not compulsory, but Sanos’s is more common (see here for more information).

 Done Smpad (talk) 23:52, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

• the family's family name – amend to ‘the family name’.

 Done Smpad (talk) 23:52, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

• Who are El-Mudarris and Salmon? They need their full names here, and they should both be introduced.

Amitchell125, unfortunately, I can't find who they are. However, they are often cited by authors published by reputable publishers ([1]), such as Brill, Taylor & Francis, Cambridge University Press etc. Could you please ask some colleague who knows French to find out who they are? With respect, colleague. Smpad (talk) 19:33, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

See here. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 19:45, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done In the book "Romantic Travel through Bartlett’s Engravings" there is a preface by Dr. Philip Mansel, who calls them "two historians of Aleppo" (p. 13). So, I will introduce them as "Aleppo historians". With respect, colleague. Smpad (talk) 19:57, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Biographical details

• Consider amending Khwaja Petik had at least two brothers, one of whom was Khwaja Sanos to something like ‘Petik and Sanos had at least one other brother'.

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:00, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

• (Old) Julfa – Old is unnecessary here.

Amitchell125, initially in Armenian the town was called Jugha. Julfa is the anglicized Persian name (جلفا). In the literature about Armenians and especially Armenian merchants, the name Old Julfa (as opposed to New Julfa) dominates significantly ([2]). Just Julfa does not convey the original Armenian flavor for the uninitiated reader. With respect, Smpad (talk) 21:38, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I understand you, so why not replace (Old) Julfa with 'Old Julfa'? Amitchell125 (talk) 22:01, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done With respect, Smpad (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

• Julfa (now in Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic of Azerbaijan) is better without brackets, i.e. ‘ Julfa, now in Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic of Azerbaijan'.

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:00, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

• Bruce Masters – should be introduced here (to something like ‘the Middle Eastern historian Bruce Masters’).

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:00, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

• Link Aleppo.

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:00, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Silk trade monopoly

• There is no need for the three images to be enlarged.

Amitchell125, I don't understand what you mean :( Are you reffering to the "thumb" parameter? With respect, Smpad (talk) 22:10, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

My apologies for not being clearer. As an example, "|thumb|right|240px|" should be "|thumb|" only, as under normal circumstances, images are not enlarged. See WP:IMAGESIZE for the best advice here. Amitchell125 (talk) 22:25, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done Thank you, colleague. Now I know. With respect, Smpad (talk) 22:43, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

• became monopolists – ‘monopolised’ (Monopoly).

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:25, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

• primarily is a redundant (unnecessary) word, and should be deleted.

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:25, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

• in conducting – ‘when conducting’.

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:25, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

• Link Persia; ledger; entrepreneurial; also India (as in the lead).

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:25, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

• Link silk the first time it appears in this section.

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:25, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

• providing them with the supply of raw silk and distribution of manufactured goods from Europe in exchange – needs to be copy edited so that it makes better sense.

Amitchell125, the source (Sanjian 1965, pp. 48–49) reads: "He and his brother Khocha Sanos operated a vast network of commercial establishments in Anatolia, Persia, and India, supplying raw silk and in exchange distributing European manufactured goods." I had a hard time rephrasing it any other way. With respect, Smpad (talk) 15:33, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Consider amending was made up of commercial establishments in Anatolia, Persia and India, providing them with the supply of raw silk and distribution of manufactured goods from Europe in exchange to something like 'in Anatolia, Persia and India, was connected with the raw silk trade and the distribution of manufactured goods from Europe'. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:31, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done Smpad (talk) 13:51, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

• Petik and his brothers - ‘Petik and his brother’?

I changed it to ‘Petik's family’. With respect, Smpad (talk) 00:25, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

• a large number of – ’many’.

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:25, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

• "customs [duties], the inspection of markets…” - is Barsoumian speaking these words, or somebody else?

Barsoumian quotes these words from Armenian chronicler Grigor Daranagetsi's book. With respect, Smpad (talk) 00:34, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

• the chief of customs of all Ottoman Syria – a small point, but the references that follow this text should really be in numerical order. The same goes with the Dutch consul in Aleppo.

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:25, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

• With such social position – needs copy editing.

Amitchell125, will it be ok if I replace "such" with "his"? With respect, Smpad (talk) 11:05, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I suggest amending With such social position, Khwaja Petik also maintained close contacts to something like 'Using his social position, Khwaja Petik maintained close contacts'. Amitchell125 (talk) 11:30, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done Smpad (talk) 13:32, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

• Subashi – should be in italics. The same with kehya.

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:36, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

• the Netherlands – Holland is also mentioned as if they were the same thing. The proper name to use throughout is ‘The Dutch Republic’.

 Done Smpad (talk) 14:28, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

• in the city – which city is this?

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:37, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

@Smpad: More comments to follow. However, this review at this stage is turning out to be an exercise in copy editing, and its looks as if there will be many other comments to come. One option is that I fail the article and you submit it to be copy edited by another editor before you re-nominate it, but I'd rather not do that. I'd prefer instead to help you to get the article promoted.

Please could you consider making a start of addressing the above comments before I continue? Amitchell125 (talk) 16:46, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you very much, colleague! I have addressed some comments, the remaining ones I will address in the coming days. Thank you again. With respect, Smpad (talk) 00:40, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

Customs control

• Duplicate link - Hagop Barsoumian

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:06, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

• Link emin-i gümrüks (Emin (Ottoman official)).

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:06, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

• but under unknown circumstances, already in 1614, he was briefly supplanted by the Musa ibn Ishaq,[i] but Sanos tried to unseat him again this year.The rivalry between the brothers and Musa was outlined since they sought to unseat one other – needs to be copy edited to improve the prose.

Amitchell125, is this variant better "At first he bought this post in Aleppo in 1612 for nine years. But under unknown circumstances, already in 1614, he was briefly supplanted by the Musa ibn Ishaq, with Sanos tried to unseat him again this year."? With respect, Smpad (talk) 15:52, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

OK, I have had a go at copy editing this difficult passage myself. Please amend it if I have made an error in your opinion. Amitchell125 (talk) 08:40, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Everything is alright, colleague. Thank you. With respect, Smpad (talk) 12:13, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

• regained his position in 1616, what was stimulated, according to Masters, by establishment of direct contact - ‘regained his position in 1616 by establishing direct contact’.

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:06, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

• According to…; As Hagop Barsoumian describes, As Masters points out – as the people being mentioned are reliable historians, there’s not need to keep saying According to, etc., or even mentioning them by name.

Amitchell125, I removed two "According to"s. But I think it is important to preserve the attribution of sources of Masters/Semerdjian and Barsoumian, since according to the first two Petik was beheaded in 1627, while the latter writes that in 1638 he was still alive. They contradict each other. With respect, Smpad (talk) 14:43, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

This looks better now. AM

• redeemed – ‘rescued’.

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:06, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

• "Tartar army" – why is this in quotes?

Amitchell125, Barsoumian just writes "... the two brothers were instrumental in organizing the ransoming (and rescue) from slavery of over a thousand Armenians who were taken as booty by the Tartar army fighting along with the Ottomans against the Persians in the war of 1638" without giving a clue what "Tartar" means. It is not clear whether he means the Crimean Tatars or the Transcaucasian/Azerbaijani Tatars. Apparently, the sources he used also do not clarify this. With respect, Smpad (talk) 23:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

I understand. You could perhaps amend "Tartar army" to 'what Barsoumian describes as as a "Tartar army"...', to help readers understand what you have explained to me, Amitchell125 (talk) 07:27, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done Smpad (talk) 14:32, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

• the amount of tariffs – 'the tariffs’.

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:06, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

• on the part of Petik this was a direct violation of the powers granted to him – ‘this was a direct violation of the powers granted to Petik’.

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:06, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

• according to whom he boasted of his power, stating – ‘after he boasted’.

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:06, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

• The last sentence is not in the right section in the article.

 Done Smpad (talk) 00:06, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

More comments to follow. Amitchell125 (talk) 17:20, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

I have started adding small red crosses (N) where comments are still to be addressed, mainly to help me see them now the list is growing. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:47, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Patronage

• Link parishioners (Parish); Armenian Catholicos (Catholicos of All Armenians).

 Done Smpad (talk) 15:13, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

• Christian temples - ‘Christian churches’.

 Done Smpad (talk) 15:13, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

• cites a local - ‘cited a local’, as the author is no longer alive.

 Done Smpad (talk) 15:13, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

• Sultan Murad IV – Sultan is redundant, as this person has already been mentioned.

 Done Smpad (talk) 15:13, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

• Place the long quotation that starts "This prayer space… within a block (see Template:Blockquote).

 Done Smpad (talk) 15:13, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

• the two churches - ‘ two churches’ sounds better.

 Done Smpad (talk) 15:13, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

• Replace Church of Surb Astuatsatsin with Church of the Holy Mother of God (Aleppo) (linked). Also, I believe Surb K‘arasunk should be Forty Martyrs Cathedral (linked).

 Done Smpad (talk) 15:13, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Executions

• The reasons for the executions of both khwajas remain not fully understood. This simple sentence only needs one citation.

 Done Smpad (talk) 19:35, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

• ''directly point to the direct dependence of the execution of Petik on – ‘directly connect the execution of Petik on’? (comment amended)

 Done Smpad (talk) 20:15, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

• Bruce Masters – ‘Masters’.

 Done Smpad (talk) 21:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

• in the citadel of Aleppo at government orders[26] (presumably on the order - ‘in the citadel of Aleppo[26] - presumably on the order’.

 Done Smpad (talk) 20:17, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

• on the order of Sultan Murad IV;[10][52] according to de Groot — on the order of - ‘the order of Murad IV,[10][52] but according to de Groot, on the order of’.

 Done Smpad (talk) 21:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

• The exact year of his death remains a matter of dispute. Sanjian, Kévonian and Sebouh Aslanian [de] date it to 1632, Acharian — to 1634. Masters names 1627 year. Semerdjian, based on the Ottoman archives, also names the year 1627 and believes that by 1639 (in the story of al-Ghazzi) Petik was already dead. However, according to Barsoumian, in 1638 he was still alive. - consider simplifying to something like 'The year of Petik's execution is given by various authors as being 1627 (Masters; Semerdjian), 1632 (Sanjian; Kévonian; Sebouh Aslanian [de]), 1634 (Acharian), or sometime after 1639 (Barsoumian)'.

 Done Smpad (talk) 21:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

• rather large should be edited out, as it is subjective.

 Done Smpad (talk) 21:56, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

• he collected – ‘Sanos collected’.

 Done Smpad (talk) 21:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

• Readers may need a brief explanation of the word ghurush.

User:Amitchell125, I gave the link to Kuruş. Should I still give an explanation? With respect, Smpad (talk) 12:27, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

The link is fine, Smpad. Thank you. AM

• like his brother is redundant.

 Done Smpad (talk) 21:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

• again found – ‘regained his position as’.

 Done Smpad (talk) 21:52, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

• Only two centuries later, the Armenians will regain their dominant role in the customs affairs of the city. - I would remove this as being “off-topic”.

 Done Smpad (talk) 19:13, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Assessment and legacy

• Son of Sanos, Iskender (or Skandar) - ‘Iskender (or Skandar), the son of Sanos’.

 Done Smpad (talk) 16:49, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

More comments to follow. AM

Testimonies of contemporaries

• Duplicate links - Simeon of Poland; Erzurum.

 Done Smpad (talk) 11:59, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

• In my opinion it would make more sense if this section was moved up to above the Assessment and legacy section.

 Done Smpad (talk) 19:11, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

• In the first paragraph, consider putting both quotations in blocks. The same goes with the long quotation in the second paragraph.

 Done Smpad (talk) 12:04, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

• describes an episode - ‘described an episode’ (as the author is not alive).

 Done Smpad (talk) 11:59, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Notes

• Five of the notes need citations.

User:Amitchell125, I added them to all notes except for the transliteration of names. I took them from Wiktionary (and stress in Armenian is almost always on the last syllable, [3]). With respect, Smpad (talk) 13:49, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

• There should not be any bold text in this section.

 Done Smpad (talk) 12:22, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

• as a social class does not make sense here. Is it needed?

User:Amitchell125, I have changed to "the Armenian Khwaja class". Is it better now or should I change it? With respect, Smpad (talk) 12:22, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, looks sorted. AM

References

• Ref 28 (Artinian) should be list in the sources section, as it is a book. The same is true for Ref 60 (Watenpaugh) and Ref 62 (Della Valle).

 Done Smpad (talk) 12:54, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Sources

• Groot should be listed after Griswold.

 Done Smpad (talk) 12:39, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

• Barsoumian is a student thesis (and so not considered to be reliable), it is best to remove him from Ref 3.

Amitchell125, the thesis was then published as a book ([4]) in 2007 by American University of Armenia (they have its text on their website, [5]). Should I change the template? With respect, colleague. Smpad (talk) 20:10, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, as a published book is always better than a thesis. Amitchell125 (talk) 20:36, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

 Done Smpad (talk) 21:17, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

On hold

I'm putting the article on hold for a week until 22 February to allow time for the issues raised to be addressed. Regards, Amitchell125 (talk) 11:41, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Pass

Passing now, many thanks for your work on this interesting article. With respect, Amitchell125 (talk) 13:55, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 16:25, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that influential Armenian merchants Petik and Sanos expanded the Armenian church, which was illegal to do in Ottoman Muslim Aleppo? Source: 1. Semerdjian, Elyse (2019). "Armenians in the Production of Urban Space in Early Modern Judayda", pp. 52-54:
  "In 1616 and 1639, the prayer space was expanded to accommodate more worshippers at the time the Julfan population was at its height. The expansion of the Forty Martyrs church was no small feat; new construction of Christian space contravened Ottoman building regulations, yet expanding and renovating Armenian space was orchestrated by Armenians who exerted exceptional influence in this period." (and further Bedik and Sanos are described).
  2. Masters, Bruce. Christians and Jews in the Ottoman Arab World: The Roots of Sectarianism (2004), p. 72:
  "In gratitude, the Armenian merchants financed the construction of the Church of the Forty Martyrs (Surp Karsunk) in 1616 to house their catholicos. The construction of new churches was, of course, a violation of the Pact of Umar and we have a hint that it cost the Armenians dearly to build their cathedral." (Masters cites Sanjian, who writes in that place about Petik and Sanos)
  • Reviewed:

Created by Smpad (talk). Self-nominated at 17:36, 20 February 2024 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Petik and Sanos; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

The hook is interesting and the article looks good. I'll review it more thoroughly, for now I have two comments:

• The way it's written now it sounds like they expanded the Armenian church as an institution rather than a specific church building. You could write "...expanded the Armenian church of Forty Martyrs, which was..." instead, for example.
• Do you think an image would be helpful? I see that the article about the church has quite a few images? Alaexis_¿question? 14:02, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Alaexis, yes, I accept your correction. I don’t know, unfortunately, if it is possible to find interesting images of the actual parts that were built by the brothers. For example, the bell tower of the church in the photos dates back to 1902, not 1616. With respect, Smpad (talk) 17:20, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

The amended version is as follows. I've changed the last part a bit, let me know if you're okay with that.

• ... that the influential Armenian merchants Petik and Sanos expanded the Armenian Church of the Forty Martyrs in Aleppo, in spite of Ottoman laws that banned new constructions and expansions of churches? Alaexis_¿question? 22:43, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Yes, I'm okay with it. Thank you. With respect, Smpad (talk) 23:53, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook: Hook has been verified by provided inline citation
Cited: Interesting:

QPQ: None required.

Overall: Alaexis_¿question? 22:43, 20 March 2024 (UTC)