Talk:Perth/Archive 2

Suggestion

Any thoughts on something about HomesWest in the social structure section? I don't know enough to do it justice.SeanMack 16:40, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

As a government department / authority I dont see any direct relevance to the Article on Perth. It does however have relevance to individual burbs and their developement. Also homewest / state housing as it was has now been taking into the deparment of plannig and infrastructure and is responsible for all government housing not just low income assistance. Gnangarra 16:57, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

My reasoning mentioning Homeswest was that there is nothing on poverty in Perth in this article. Considering there is a "Social structure" section - it only talks about rich and middle income earners. Nor is there anything about the indigenous tribes from the area (eg Noongar) and what their circumstances are in modern day Perth which is booming with mining wealth. Big oversight IMO. SeanMack 15:26, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I understand what you are now saying on homeswest I agree, I got a busy few days ahead but I'll try to get to their web site and see whats around. Gnangarra

Maybe all Government departments could get their own shared page on say a Government Service Western Australia Gnangarra

also the local indigenous tribes have been over look within the article but they do have a wiki article so just need to give a short paragraph and link Gnangarra 10:02, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

This Area now has fairly extreme NPOV on Southern/Northern/Western/Eastern Suburbs. I will remove it if nothing is discussed.

Barracks Street Jetty

I understand this was the main transport hub for perth for the first 50 years of the colony due primarliy to inhospital sandy soils, most transposrt was on the river. The area around the jetty was where the afghan camel trains were loaded and unloaded there cargo then went onto boats for the trip to fremantle. The afghans were responsible for the planting of the Date palms along the foreshore. Gnangarra 14:41, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Ohmigawd, I find it very hard to believe the last sentence, check old photos very very carefully the current shore line does not relate to earlier shore lines i think someone has had you on that one! As for hub, once again if youre looking at first 50 years, I would have thought the guildford landing was far more important  :) Camel trains issue requires others to comment, but I'd be very careful on that one, unless you have the sources/photos/proof!!!!SatuSuro 14:07, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Checking with my history guru, barrack street jetty would NOT have been in its currentplace in the first 50 years of Perth's existence for a start, river shore line was much further north, as for camel trains (so _very_ unlikely_prior to 1890's, maybe 1880s if you can find proof!!!) date palms on a piece of foreshore that didnt even exist is very problematic. Go speak to the staff at State Records office for early maps of Perth, and you'll see what I mean!!!!!SatuSuro 14:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

horse shoe bridge

This is an interesting piece of engineering the bridge was originally required to enable the camel train to pass over the train line without affecting the trains. The problem they had was there wasn't sufficient approaches on either side to enable a conventional bridge. The horse design enable the short crossing, but because of the length of the camel trains it was required to be extremely wide to enable them to be turned at the top.

Thats all i know at the moment can some help to expand into a better section Gnangarra 14:40, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

how stupid

I agree that a search on Perth alone should show all centres with the name PERTH whether they are 200 years old or whether they have a population of 2,000,000 or 2.

But what I cant fathom is when time is spent correcting links from the disambiguation page to the article that is object of the link people are going back and removing the disambiguation. Gnangarra 14:33, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

References needed

This should help:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cite.php

I've changed one external inline link to a reference using this method. SeanMack 16:41, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Regional Gays In The Community

===Regional Gays In The Community=== Perth's many regional ethnic groups are often conglomerated into [[ethnic communities]] or ethnic enclaves. Within Perth, of course, the most famous are the two distinct [[Italian]] communities: the first epicentre is in [[Fremantle, Western Australia]], extending south to [[White Gum Valley]], [[South Fremantle]], Spearwood as far south as [[Rockingham]] (in form of market gardens), and the second beginning just north of the [[Central Business District]] in suburbs such as North Perth, Tuart Hill, Balcatta and Dianella. In addition to Italian migrants and numerous Australian-Italians, there are peoples of the aforementioned ethnic origin. These immigrants have brought with them the many and varied customs of their home land, and added to Perth's cosmopolitan atmosphere. To fully appreciate this contribution, visitors should visit the Fremantle Markets, South Terrace on Fremantle (Perth's premier cafe strip), and the many cafes in [[South Fremantle]]. Other more recent ethnic communities include Indians, Sri. Lankans in the eastern suburbs of Thornlie and Gosnells, Vietnamese and South-east Asians in the Inner northern and Northeastern suburbs (in such LGAs as Bayswater, Stirling and Swan), Indonesians, Malaysians, Singaporeans and other Asian peoples in the newer suburbs of the LGAs of [[Canning]], [[Melville]], [[Gosnells]] and the Central Business District. Immigrants from the [[United Kingdom]], and a lesser extent Continental Europe, often settle in the Outer Suburban areas such as [[Joondalup]], [[Armadale]] and [[Rockingham]]. Immigrants from English speaking countries - most notably [[New Zealand]] and [[South Africa]], tend share the same settlement patterns as English immigrants. On the whole, however, Perth's ethnic communities have not bee stigmatised by the area in which they live, a trend emerging in other state capitals, most notably, [[Sydney]]. For the most part, Perth's diverse population lives in harmony.

The section above I removed from the article. The reason is that it dosent have any relevance to the article Gnangarra 05:34, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Can you please elaborate further as to why ethnic demographics of a city are not relevant to an article about the city? I agree that it's a bit wordy and possibly a bit too POV, but I don't see how it is completely irrelevant. - Mark 07:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

The sections doesnt have complete distributions offers no sources and finishes by impling that Sydney and other capitals are ethnic based populations also unsourced. Ethnic distribution should be comprehensive comply with NPOV.

1. The section isnt referrenced no source ie ABS
2. The section implies that there are specific ethnic ghettos in Perth.
3. It has a knownly offensive title. If its about Ethnic Demographics why isnt the title that
4. It's inaccurate the area around fremantle isnt an exclusively Italian ethnicity as implied.
5. It geographically inaccurate - thornlie, gosnells are South eastern. Stirling Is north, Bayswater and Swan are east.
6. It isnt NPOV

This section has none of the above, the POV was written as imflamatory. Was drawing baseless conclussions to denegrate other cities. Gnangarra 09:02, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough. I, too, was a bit puzzled by the title (considering gay people aren't even mentioned in the text). I might do some ABS research when I get some free time and try to replace the section with NPOV and verifiable statistics. There are definitely some concentrations of different religious and ethnic groups in different areas, though, and they would be worth mentioning if there are statistics to support them. As far as I know, the area around Dianella has a large proportion of Jewish residents, whereas Kalamunda (near where I live) has a large English population, and Lesmurdie has a high Italian population. - Mark 05:11, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Can you explain why its even relevant, every person is free to chose where they live my reason maynot be the same as my neighbours yet we both could have similar ethnic back grounds Gnangarra 05:48, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

It's an encyclopedia article: if there is a concentration of a social group in a particular area, it is intimately relevant both to the question of demographics and the history of the city. Stating the geographic distribution of particular social or ethnic groups does not disparage them for their choice of home, it merely highlights regularities or anomalies in the otherwise uniform distribution of ethnicities across the city. Here are some examples of such demographics sections from other city articles:

"Some ethnic groups are associated with the suburbs where they first settled: the Italians with Leichhardt, Greeks with Rockdale and Hurstville, Lebanese with Lakemba and Bankstown, Koreans with Campsie, Russians with Bondi, Chinese with Ultimo (where Sydney's Chinatown has emerged), Vietnamese with Cabramatta and Assyrians with Fairfield. Redfern has a high concentration of indigenous Australians." - from Sydney

(Map showing concentration of people of Asian origin in San Francisco): "Note the large Asian population in the Sunset District, Richmond District, and in Chinatown." ... "Gay men outnumber lesbians, who are more concentrated in the suburban East Bay." - from San Francisco

"Singapore has several ethnic neighbourhoods, including Little India and Chinatown, which were formed under the Raffles Plan to segregate the new immigrants into ethnic ghettoes." - from Singapore

(Map showing distributions of London's ethnic minorities across that city): "The city's largest ethnic minorities."

"The North-Eastern Suburbs (such as Golden Grove and Salisbury) and suburbs close to the CBD had a higher ratio of overseas born residents." - from Adelaide

Clearly, other people consider that the geographic ethnic distributions of cities are relevant to articles on those cities as well. - Mark 05:28, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Guys - I'm from Perth and lived in heaps of other cities. Trust me on this point - Perth is very much heterogeneous. Face it: it is a large, spacious expanse of urbanisation hugging the Indian Ocean, with a demographic profile that is more English than England. There are no ghettos as intense as you might find in Sydney, London or Vice City.

infamous capuccino strip?

Found this in section 8.8 (Freo).

'... one cannot visit Fremantle without going to the Fremantle Markets, before having one of the many varieties of coffee on the city's infamous Capuccino Strip - South Terrace'

What exactly is infamous about the capuccino strip? Is that sentence there because of the nightclubs on the weekend nights (which do get pretty hairy sometimes, especially at the taxi rank), or what? Because I can't think of anything else infamous about the strip (in fact, even for the crezze clubbers, infamous is probably the wrong word).

Bird of paradox 18:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Geography / Water

Quote:

Water supply

In recent years, climate change has resulted in reduced rainfall in the region, reducing inflow into dams by two thirds over the last 30 years

Does someone have a source for this? Generally (no I don't have a source for my generalisation ;) ) reductions in inflow in Australia are attributable to changes in land use, soil degredation, deforestation, etc. This statement presumes climate change is a proven, indisputable fact, without provision of a source showing that the climate has changed.

For all I know the reduction in inflows to Perth, WA dams is due to the increase in water extraction from the Great Artesian Basin. (yeah, it doesn't even go all the way to Perth. Whatever!) Garrie 23:45, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

I have read(the west) that the reason for the reduction was an increase in trees in the catchment area that by thining the problem wll be resolved Gnangarra 04:16, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

If I recall correctly, that figure is one supplied by the Water Corporation. - Mark 03:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The reference to the "the sandplain that lies adjacent to the Darling Scarp known as the Bassendean Sand Dune Ecosystem" is incorrect. The Bassendean system is merely one element of the Swan Coastal Plain, along with others (see here: http://www.wrc.wa.gov.au/srt/publications/landscape/resource/geomorph.html). Being new to this whole wikipedia editing thing, I thought I'd mention it here before changing the article myself... any objections? --SDavies 19:36, 3 July 2006 (UTC) (Done!)

Whether or not climate change is the cause of Perth's reduced rainfall is not really relevant. What is important is that rainfall is reduced - the reference to climate change seems a bit unnecessary. I'm going to rewrite that line.

Missing Information

I think the article needs a section on the economics of the city. Any takers? This is a good reference for starters: http://www.perth.wa.gov.au/html/pub_pdffiles/CapitalPerth.pdf Cheers SeanMack 06:35, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

fully agree, last sentence in History section is more of economic than historical value. -- Goldie (tell me) 21:21, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

This is where Perth shines. I think the tables that are produced by Treasury and Finance are beaut, especially now that in terms of Wages and stuff WA is doing so well compared to other Australan states. But that's the rub, none of these figures and stats can be directly attributed to only "Perth" per se. and all this stuff is probably copyrighted anyway. Maybe an external link to http://www.dtf.wa.gov.au/cms/tre_content.asp?id=495 instead? petedavo@iinet.net.au 09:52, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

History

Going through the subsection "Naming and founding" most of it seems to be related to Western Australia in general and not to Perth in particular. I can understand Foundation Day is relevant as Perth and Fremantle are parts of the first settlement but Federation referendum is largely irrelevant. Same applies to british concerns and settlement of Albany - Stirling's voyage is important, Albany is not relevant beyond being the foremost colony in WA and Perth/Fremantle being the second.

So I personally think the irrelevant information should be moved to WA article (as there is no History section at all), and what is left to be merged in a monolitic History section without a subsection. -- Goldie (tell me) 21:19, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

And while we're on the subject, the eventual history section in this article should mention the "city of lights" story, the hijacked tank incident and the bombing of the French embassy. Snottygobble 01:38, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

It was an APC, not a tank. What about the WA Inc. years then there's also Noongar history, dreamtime, Yagan, and mascre in the valley 1830(victms buried at all saints church, henley brook). Gnangarra 02:28, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I think WA Inc. should be considered part of the history of Western Australia rather than the history of Perth. Noongar history would of course contain aspects relevant to Perth, including the life of Yagan. Snottygobble 02:34, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I think a Perth history section should also include comment on the reclamation of Mounts Bay, the hosting of the America's Cup (though maybe that should be in the Fremantle article?) and the Commonwealth Games. It should probably refer to the 70s and 80s when many of the historical buildings of the city got knocked down and replaced by skyscrapers. - Mark 03:17, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

In fact, there's probably enough material for an entire article on the superb buildings lost in Perth! Have a look at the photos of St Georges Terrace in the 40's and you get a bit of an idea - Gobeirne 06:56, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Also catalina's flying out of Crawley, and langley park as an airfield prior to sth guildford. maybe the robbery from tax office during early 70's as well. Gnangarra 15:44, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Population density

It appears the population density figure was not updated when the population figure changed. I am updating it now to 274.4/km² based on the 2001 census definition of the Perth Statistical District being 5386 km² (see cover sheet) and the new population figure. Please make sure these figures don't fall out of synch again.

Opening statement - too informal?

The last line of the opening statement currently reads as follows:

"The city is well known for its wonderful beaches, nice views, great weather and the atmosphere along with the friendly people."

For some reason, it doesn't read too well for me. Too informal, maybe? Too opinionated? Kinda tacky? I'd like to hear some other people's thoughts.

Bonga 17:54, 07 May 2006 (AWST)

I Agree with you. It is very much so too tacky. I Would consider changing it.

Here is something i come up with for an opening statement:

Perth is the state capital city of Western Australia, located in the lower south western portion of the Australian continent, well-known for it's charismatic suburbs, people and lifestyles, it's skyline is modern and represents the economic supremacy generated by the states large ore and mineral deposits.

Trentwpb 15:35, 09 May 2006 (AWST)

define Most popular sport

As raised on the Western Australia talk page Talk:Western Australia Aussie Rules has the most paying spectators but other sports have higher memberships and participants than footy I adjusted the article to show it as the a popular spectator sport. Gnangarra 12:27, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Discussion of merger proposal

History of Perth

It seems that User:Auroranorth and myself created separate articles History of Perth and History of Perth, Western Australia at about the same time (just a few days ago). There is no doubt these above pages should be merged. As to merging with Perth, Western Australia, I would suggest no merge as there is a huge amount of material that could go into a separate History of Perth article, and it would also be consistent with the convention used by other Australian Capital cities (which have their own history pages). Gazjo 01:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Yep. Per Gazjo. Snottygobble 01:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

History of Perth

On the Perth, Western Australia talk page, apparently History of Perth, Western Australia is on the To-do List. As for the merge between History of Perth and History of Perth, Western Australia, I think that there may be confusion between Perth, Scotland and Perth, Western Australia. Maybe a redirect or a disambiguation page is needed? I agree with User talk:Snottygobble about the merge with Perth, Western Australia. There is a huge amount of history on Perth and a separate article is warranted. Auroranorth 09:47, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Both History of Perth pages should be merged under History of Perth, Western Australia. There is sufficient information for a stand alone article. What should happen is that the History section on the Perth, Western Australia article should be summarised and a link to main artcile History of Perth, Western Australia be added. Gnangarra 12:35, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I oppose the merge of History of Perth into main Perth, Western Australia article Gnangarra 13:13, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Perth histroy is too diverse to merge with Perth. Perth is now a very modern city with a very modern skyline, the history should not be forgotten or merged into a condenced form. --Aus911 05:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

---

Just to clarify and expand on my comments above, I oppose merging the History of Perth, Western Australia/History of Perth article into this article on the following grounds:

Significance/potential size of this article

There is a lot to say about Perth; any serious attempt to get this article up to featured article status would inevitably involve rolling the history section out into a separate article

Significance/potential size of the history article

There is lots to say about the history of Perth. Stannage's The People of Perth is merely a social history, and it is 350ish pages long

Precedent

History of Melbourne, History of Sydney, History of Brisbane, History of Canberra, History of Hobart, History of Adelaide, History of Darwin.

Snottygobble 12:41, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

• OK, so there is agreement not to merge History of Perth/Western Australia with Perth, Western Australia. Now there needs to be discussion on what the History of Perth page should be called. I don't mind which title. I think a redirect is OK for now. A disambiguation page can be added if we get any complaints from the Scottish :) I have no idea how to merge articles (do all historical edits from both pages get preserved?) Gazjo 13:22, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

reading the two Articles History of Perth has a lot more detail and includes everything in the article History of Perth, Western Australia. Suggest we have the article History of Perth, Western Australia deleted and use and expand the other article if a dab is required later then we can do it then. Gnangarra 13:34, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I've been bold and done it. Article is History of Perth, Western Australia rather than History of Perth (which is now a redirect), as it then ties in with Perth, Western Australia. It would be bad faith towards our Scottish cousins to do otherwise (esp. after previous argument). -- I@n ≡ talk 14:10, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

BTW, Melbourne has a History of Melbourne as well as a very nice Foundation of Melbourne (the latter by Adam Carr). -- I@n ≡ talk 14:18, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Images

Here's what Perth will look like in a few years time according to an artists competition held in 1929. I didn't have a place to put this and just wanted to share it with you all. :) -- I@n ≡ talk 06:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

interestingly there is a bridge at the narrows that was still almost 30 years away Gnangarra

I have just added the photo Perth CBD from air in the Governance section - not really sure if this is the right section but I thought this gives a good perspective of the CDB's scale compared with the suburbs. --Chewy m 16:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Perth In Lit/Pop Culture?

Should there be a section of references to Perth in literature or modern culture? I think there would be many people interest to know that in The Sandman, when Lucifer retires, he moves to scarborough – and I'm sure there would be many other fun and interesting mention of Perth. Hegar 06:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I like the idea, but is the Sandman comic really referring to Perth's Scarborough? There are several other places called Scarborough around the world... Bonga 05:41, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It definitely is Perth WA. He concedes that god does a nice sunset. I think this talk page is the best place for that literary nugget. Ben Elton and DH lawrence are other lit. leads. Fred.e 12:11, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Recent decimation of article

Are editors happy with the edits made 11/06 by Cyberjunkie, removing parts wholesale from the article? Personally, I would agree that certain sentences needed to go. However, I do think too much was culled. Any thoughts anyone? SeanMack 14:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that too much was culled without discussion, this is not to say that it wasn't necessary. The article has GA status but given such a dramatic edit it should be delisted and renominated. I Suggest that the culling be restored and that each section be discussed then rewritten or deleted say work on two sections at time over a one week period. Gnangarra 14:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I have taken the bold step of reverting the recent changes back to the last version where I added a reference. I was expecting some words from Cyberjunkie but he's on a wikibreak so hopefully he will contribute when he returns. I do agree that edits he made alluded to the fact that certain areas need cleanup. But a bit more discussion is needed to see where we can inprove and what bits really just have to go. Cheers. SeanMack 11:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

How on earth did this article attain GA status? If it did so legitimately, it shows that that process is a farce (and I'm usually supportive of it). As I stated in my summary, my changes were brutal. Usually, I would precipitate such edits with an explanation. This article has long been the most deficient of the capital cities, and it was, in my eyes, getting to the state that some eastern state cities had got to before intervention. Hence, my intent was to put it back on track by excising the bad elements - that's editing. Everything I removed had no place in a quality article. The toughest call came with the social structure section; there were some admittedly pertinent facts in there, largely to do with population, but it contained strong elements of original research. In retrospect, a better course of action would have been to integrate appropriate information with the new demographics section (renamed from ethnicity). For an idea of what form this article should take, look to Canberra and Ann Arbor. The general structure should be as follows:

• History
• Geography
  • Climate
• Governance
• Economy
• Demographics
• Culture (with other sub-headings as necessary)
  • Media
  • Sport
• Infrastructure
  • Health
  • Transport
  • Utilities
• References
• External Links

If anything, I hope my changes have sparked genuine interest in bringing this article up to scratch. I am about to re-instate my edits, with some information retained.--cj | talk 16:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, on review, nothing in social structure was essential information for a summary article, and some of the sources were less than reliable.--cj | talk 16:56, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Cyberjunkie, I don't understand how you can say you are supportive of GA and also say that this article proves it is a farce? You just insult the editors here and the GA project with a statement like that. Otherwise you are saying there was something underhand involved, which is an insult to me. I nominated it but can assure you I did not promote it. I have come across worse FAs... I nominated it after adding all the references that were on the page and someone at some later date promoted it. At the time I was on a run to bring up the profile of major cities and countries. These are mandatory for WP1.0 and the coverage has helped already. I believe strongly in the verifiability requirements of Wikipedia which is why I researched a fair bit to support many of the things that certainly needed work and references. It makes me wonder is there any point if someone comes along later and blanks complete sections that have been referenced and reasonably stable for some time, without discussion of how improvements could be made or where any relevant information could be moved. To throw out the social section in it's entirety rather than reword and place in Demographics "some references are unreliable" comes across to me as lazy editing. I agree the heading should have been Demographics and going for consistency of coverage as other city FAs makes sense. To take one specific point it has been well published that Perth has had a massive inward UK population relocation in recent years and to remove information relating to this is detrimental to the article. To ignore this is to ignore a minor cultural phenomenon. I was hoping that Perth would in due course have a Demographics section a bit more like that on the Sydney page than what was there for Perth, which is why I went and found the relevant sections of the ABS site and included it. I hoped that it made it easy for the next editor to get some summary stats for the article. There was always the possibility that the information could be reworded and expanded. There are also regional variations within the Perth Metro area with an area like Kwinana for example having a lot of industry. I also feel this coverage is relevant to the Perth article. Granted it was weak and needed improvement, but to just remove it means it is even less likely there will be informed, well written information available on these aspects of the city. For comparison I refer to the Urban structure section for Sydney. Just my 2 cents... SeanMack 18:51, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not mean to insult anyone or to suggest anything underhanded, so please don't take offence. I am supportive of the concept of recognising articles of standards near, but not quite, FAs. Many editors are not, and indeed call WP:GA all sorts of things. My point was that if the article as it stood was considered GA-standard, then I would have to agree that the process is a farce altogether.--cj | talk 11:10, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

The 'tourism' information that was deleted could possibly be summarised in a paragraph or two under the Culture heading but before the Sports subheading. The other capital cities appear to have done similarly. After all a Perth article with no mention of Kings Park would seem to be incomplete. Gazjo 05:21, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

starting point

This article needs to decide what direction it is taking, is it about

1. Perth - the Metropolitan area, and capital of WA
2. Perth - Suburb and city centre.
3. Both

I think it should be the first option Gnangarra 11:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I was always under the understanding that it was the first one. SeanMack 12:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I think Cyberjunkie edits was to bring the article back to that focus. Gnangarra 12:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

This article should be about the metropolitan area; the standard (though not full implemented for WA and QLD) is to have separate articles for local government areas.--cj | talk 16:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The article seems to attract enthusiastic POV when it carries certain headings (see below) I do think that some compromise needs to be made where the section headings do not attract this sort of POV attractant, so whichever way the article goes, it really needs to exclude items that can be more suitable reviewed in other arts - such as LGA's, or other parts of the Perth project. Just my delayed 2 bobs worth :) SatuSuro 12:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Lifestyle

Whatever happens, this section should be removed, it seems to attract POV like flies to ... SatuSuro 12:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Agree. SeanMack 17:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Agree also. I'll move it out. BTW, I was just reading the Adelaide article which is very well done - but we're getting there! -- I@n 01:50, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

cut section

Perth is a relatively small city in comparison with Sydney and Melbourne, the capitals of New South Wales and Victoria respectively, but it is still the fourth largest city in Australia. The Central Business District is the financial centre of Perth, and while a hive of activity during the work week, is relatively quiet and deserted during weekends. Despite Perth's CBD being quite small Perth has many large suburbs which have shopping centres, supermarkets, cinemas, takeaways and many other amenities.

I removed this paragraph from the article as it's has nothing to do with the City skyline section it was in. If there is better place please return it to the article there but it will need cites and a reword as well. Gnangarra 10:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

There has been a concerted effort over the past 3-5 years to bring residential property into the the CBD area from East perth through to Barrack's Arch, might be worth a mention that this has changed from the original CBD population of < 1000. E.g The old RAC building on Adelaide Tce is being converted to residential next year, and is just one of many formal business sites becoming apartment / condo style accomodation. --Aus911 05:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Skyline photos

I think that this recently-added photo-

Image:Perth City Skyline.JPG

- is of subpar quality. It should either be re-taken at a different time of day/night, when the light is more aesthetically appealing, or it should simply be removed, given that there are multiple other (much better) photos of the skyline already.

Does anyone else agree?

Bonga 22:28, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Remove it. The article has too many pictures already. It's clogging up the page with all these similar pictures of the city. Orichalcon 15:12, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Partner Cities

I found this on the Polish Wiki - Can someone fit it into the table as the formatting of it is weird... These are Perth's partner cities:
JPN Kagoshima (1974)
USA Houston (1984)
GRC Rhodes (1984)
GRC Megisti (1984)
USA San Diego (1987)
ITA Vasto (1989)
CHN Nanjing (1998)
TWN Taipei (1999)
Thanks, Imperator Honorius 07:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I added the sister cities, but I don't know how to fix the border so the image of the Northbridge tunnel is not cutting over it.I like Radiohead 05:57, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I've removed this list. This article is about the Perth metropolitan area, not the City of Perth, which these cities are sister to.--cj | talk 15:38, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

And I have done so again. I think someone is going through the Australian cities articles and adding them 58.174.41.169 (talk) 11:51, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Housing Prices/Economy

I think this should be added somewhere, as it is often mentioned in The West and in the local news reports. Something about being the second highest in the country, and the huge growth rate. I have a link which I got off the Canberra wiki REIA. This has all of the necessecary information I think.

There's also no mention of the Economy of Perth, I don't feel it's adequetly covered in the Western Australia article, which passes over the heavily services based sector. I'm not sure if it's needed though, as, except for the Major mining companes based here, it's much like other large western cities.

I like Radiohead 06:12, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Definately agree, Perth's economy is booming at the moment. Not only the mining sector, but other areas such as tourism and the businesses services sector. AustralianTraveller 21:28, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Perth Tram Company

This article reads like an add for the company and I think it should be deleted. The original request in the to/do box was for Perth Trams, which I took as the use of trams in Perth between 1890 and 1960. can who ever put the original request please clarify what they were looking for. Gnangarra 09:38, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I can't see how the article reads like an add for the company - it is not bias or one-sided in my point of view. For tourism in Western Australia, I think it is quite a prominent attraction, hence the need for the article. The original request was for Perth Trams, but I didn't take it as the old trams that were in use. If that was the original intentions for the request, then maybe another article can be made about the mode of transport used in Perth at that time. So while it may not have been the intended article, I think the article is still needed, having been a tourist in Perth myself. Sorry Gnangarra if I totally misread the original request, --Ali K 09:57, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I dont know what the origiinal request was for hence the question, its not Bias its just reads like an add rather than an article. The other point is it doesnt link from any articles, I though maybe who ever requested the article in the first place would respond and link to what they wanted it for. Gnangarra 12:36, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for the concern. --Ali K 12:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Ahem! I have only just got back online and can now confirm that I made the original request for the original trams (historical). Sorry to have generated any confusion yet glad for the interest. Fred.e 19:16, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I think the article should be deleted - although perhaps some of the info should go on the new page about the historical trams. Anyway, i've nominated it for deletion. See: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Perth Tram Company DonkeyKong the mathematician (in training) 08:27, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Afd finished early after all article editors indicated it should be deleted. Gnangarra 13:29, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Robert Holmes à Court

Robert and Janet had 4 children, Peter, Paul and Simon and a daughter whose name I cannot remember. Help. — Moondyne 14:42, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

Catherine. Thanks User:124.189.207.200 — Moondyne 08:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Metropolitan Regional Scheme

Do we want to mention the MRS in here someplace, or would it be better in a separate article? Gordon | Talk, 11:36, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Both Gnangarra 11:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Archived Old Talk

Hi, I just archived pretty much everything before October, as it was mostly out of date. They can be found in /Archive1 and /Archive2. I like Radiohead 13:50, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Picture

The picture of Perth's location in relation to the rest of Australia was recently changed, and I believe it should be changed back. It is now inconsistent with the other state capitals, and it doesn't show the location of Perth in relation to anything, AND it cuts out half of the metropolitan area, for example, Gosnells to the south, where I live, and Joondalup to the north.I like Radiohead 13:52, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Ummmm. Er... Why are there now two "Perth in Australia" maps in this article? When the one in the text below the info-box not only shows Perth, but also all the other State capitals? The locator map which I like Radiohead replaced was not intended to show Perth City in relationship to the rest of the state, but its position on the Swan River. None of the other inner suburban locator maps show Gosnells or Joondalup either -- but they are clearly visible on the outer suburban locator maps which show Perth as a small blip. Gordon | Talk, 13:15, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

This article has too many maps - someone needs to be brave! SatuSuro 13:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I can see your point  :>  OTOH, we could have a very bright debate here, as I value maps in this context -- I believe it is necessary to show people graphically the geographical relationships a place has, 'cos doing it with words lacks a certain je ne sais quois. However, maybe there is a better way of doing it, perhaps a map-oriented sub-page or something? Gordon | Talk, 14:05, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that the current "yellow" map in the info box is the one thats got to stay as it maintains consistancy across all capital city articles. the second detailed map should be removed, in its current positio nit doesnt add any value and actually detracts signifcantly with its location so close to the "yellow" one. Gnangarra 14:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

There is surely a subsidiary or sister page that could utilise the second map - um 'Swan coastal plain' springs to mind but there might be others you folks could think of? SatuSuro 14:26, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

the detailed map with scale etc maybe Australia Gnangarra 14:31, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

it is on Geography of Australia already Gnangarra

Anyway, I've removed it. Gordon | Talk, 14:36, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Isolated city

Honolulu is further than Perth to any other similar state or national city, the full story with distances is at Talk:Perth,_Western_Australia/Archive1#Isolated_City. I commented out the section for this claim to be added it needs to supported by an independant reference. Gnangarra 03:08, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The exact claim of isolation was that Perth was a metro area of population of atleast one million that was furthest away from another metro area of population of atleast one million than any other metro area of population of atleast one million on the planet. That is, imagine that all human inhabitations of less than a million people staying fairly close to each other were wiped off the planet. Then, Perth would be the most isolated city on the earth. According to it's article, Honolulu has 377,260 people, and the island of Oahu (a reasonable definition of Honolulu's metro area) has around 900,000 people - too small to meet our cut-off of a million people. True, in 10-15 years or so Honolulu's population will probably increase enough to make the cut-off and it will become the most isolated city, but for now Perth is the winner in this contest. You could ofcourse ask what makes the one million number so special that it was chosen as the cutoff. Well, apart from its round attractiveness in base 10, nothing. 999,999 or 1,000,001 could be just as valid a cut-off as 1,000,000, but if we play that game and keep stretching the limit just a little bit in both directions then soon we end up with any square inch that does not have humans on it or the whole planet itself as being the most isolated - clearly an absurd notion. A limit (necessarily arbitrary) must be picked at some point, and one million is just as good a number as any other for this purpose. Therefore, I for one choose to welcome our new Perthian overlords mention this piece of trivia on the article page. Anybody else with me? --Qwertyca 02:51, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

The section says Perth is the most isolated metropolitan area on Earth. The nearest city to it with a population of over 1 million is Adelaide in South Australia, a distance of approximately 2,104 kilometers (1,307 miles). and doesnt define the above parameters neither does Metropolitan area. Is there a source for this claim, which states the methodology use to establish the claim. Currently the information is an ambigious claim based on a necessarily arbitrary number as such is of no encyclopedic value and it violates WP:OR. Gnangarra 03:48, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Cities with at least a million inhabitants in 2006

Actually, I've heard this "most isolated city" claim both on the Travel Channel (if you're in the USA you should know about it, if not just Google it) and also on the Lonely Planet website. Therefore, this is not original research. We should rephrase the claim to make it specific that we are referring to metro area only. The definition of metro area is on the metro area page (essentially, zone of economic influence / commuter belt). As for being unencyclopedic, I'd disagree with that because it is quite an interesting piece of trivia IMHO. --Qwertyca 09:03, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

The adjacent map confirmed this discussion. Gazjo 10:40, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

but...

after checking that map, I see that Auckland is 2152km from Sydney, which is greater than the Perth-Adelaide distance, which would suggest that Auckland may in fact be the most isolated city of over one million people. Would someone like to confirm this? Gazjo 09:10, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Perth is 2700km from Adelaide. It's also a three hour flight from Adelaide, whereas Sydney is a two hour flight from Auckland. Orderinchaos 09:25, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

The article says 2104km so there is an error somewhere. Gazjo 11:01, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

It's difficult finding reliable sources for large distances, but sources giving distances between 2690 and 2722 kilometres are plentiful online. Plugging 601 Wellington Street, Perth and King William Street, Adelaide, with shortest distance into whereis (a joint venture between our nation's only telephone directory and our biggest national mapping company) gives 2,697.69km. Google Maps gives 2,694. Orderinchaos 11:32, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

For distances between places within Australia, the ideal source is As The Cocky Flies. Yes, I know it is hard to take seriously with a wanky name like that, but it is backed by Geoscience Australia's gazetteer and extensive geodetic data, and therefore simply can't be beat as an authoritative source. It gives the distance between Perth and Adelaide as 2130km. Hesperian 11:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

London Court

I am suprised that no Perth related articles mention London Court. It is a distinctive architecture and major tourist drawcard. http://www.londoncourt.com.au/ --Biatch 05:08, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

It is true - negigble mention - also it is a potential good separate article that could be written - as the context of construction and its survival - would help notability - tourist attraction is not necessarily sufficient to warrant an article as such SatuSuro 05:15, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Any anyone does fancy the article I have some reasonable pics to add. SeanMack 13:27, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I remembered give it a plug it in the Claude de Bernales article I did last year. —Moondyne 08:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

London Court. Thanks for the pics Sean. —Moondyne 09:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Antipode Trivia

I removed this due to inaccuracy. Perth is 31.5248S 115.5258E, Hamilton Bermuda is 32.293N 64.782W. Not even close to being antipodes. According to mapquest.com, the closest city to Perth's antipode is Ensenada, New Mexico. [1] (You'll need to zoom out on the map link), and even that is too far away to be considered an accurate antipode. Orichalcon 17:28, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Jazz in Perth

I was surprised to find no mention of jazz in Perth under the music section, considering that Perth is home to one of the top jazz conservatories in the world. I'm sure that those maintaining www.jazzwa.com would be more than happy to suggest a suitable contribution.

Wikipedia Version 0.X

Somehow, Perth failed to be included in Wikipedia:Version 0.5. I've nominated it to Wikipedia:Version 0.7. Regards Comte0 06:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Native Title

This makes no sense to anyone who has no clue what Native Title means. Please clarify the term Native Title if you know what it is. Dkriegls 08:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't "native title" refer to legislation dealing with the returning of land ownership to the original occupiers, specifically aboriginals?

Western Fury

Western Fury (state womens cricket team) needs to be added into the article - i dont want to take away its GA status - so i wont add it myself. Twenty Years 13:52, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Time Zone

I looked at various other cities and they all have the time zones listed, but I don't know where to put it, and don't want to mess up the article. If anyone wants to know it is GMT+8. If someone could put it in that would be great --Fapmyster 13:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

GA delisted

In order to uphold the quality of Wikipedia:Good articles, all articles listed as Good articles are being reviewed against the GA criteria as part of the GA project quality task force. Unfortunately, as of September 16, 2007, this article fails to satisfy the criteria, as detailed below. For that reason, the article has been delisted from WP:GA. However, if improvements are made bringing the article up to standards, the article may be nominated at WP:GAC. If you feel this decision has been made in error, you may seek remediation at WP:GA/R.

• Every statement that is likely to be challenged needs an inline citation.

Regards, Epbr123 17:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

No wonder considering the ad hoc accretion of un-cited parephenalia into the article - the Perth project should be called on its slumber to cleanup the article SatuSuro 01:03, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

The structure's kind of fallen apart and images are randomly scattered everywhere, that seems to be the main problems. I will do what I can in the next couple of weeks, there's no reason we can't get this back up there. Orderinchaos 06:38, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I've been working on those citations last week, the result being several red links left in the references and a couple of {{fact}} in the article. More specifically, I've corrected some numbers in the Demographics section, and I'm afraid that correctly sourcing the population by year infobox on its right will be a major headache. Comte0 (talk) 14:20, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Some proposed changes to the structure

Some basic things that need fixing are:

• A proper summary section of the main History of Perth, Western Australia article
• Remove all the gallery sections and moving to commons all images not already there
• Clean up geography section, probably remove skyline section, remove CBD section and reformat relevant information.
• Move demographics section to level 3 under Geography.
• Remove Metropolitan Region Scheme section and include relevant information in Geography
• Create Level 2 section "Culture" and Combine Visual Arts and Performing Arts into one level 3 section, add a level 3 music section after moving three quarters of the listed music groups to Music of Perth and write the section in prose.
• Write sport section in prose rather than in list form
• Move native title section to Native title article and move relevant information to history section.

Other's thoughts? -- Mattinbgn\ ^talk 12:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

All sound like good ideas. I think we should also try to look at FAs of similar size/importance cities such as Houston, Texas and Boston, Massachusetts and see what good ideas they present. Orderinchaos 13:47, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Looks good - also anything to stop the ad hoc chaotic addition of everybodys backyard music group must be good SatuSuro 23:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Previously there was a list of musical acts from Western Australian - when the list was converted to the two categories; [Category: Western Australian musical groups] & [Category:Western Australian musical artists] - I kept a version of the list on my user page (as it included a number of Western Australian bands which didn't have specific articles - some of which are notable and others of which are not) - List of Western Australian Musical Acts. There are some gaps in the list that I am endeavouring to fill (abiet slowly) but am happy if you want to copy those notable bands from Perth in the article - List of musical acts from Perth. Dan arndt 05:07, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Perth Spirit

Perth Spirit are a Rugby Union Team representing Perth in Australian_Rugby_Championship, just so the person who removed it knows, they are a legit team and a Professional team so I am adding them back in, I honestly don't understand why someone would remove them?. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.161.86.177 (talk)

Named After Perth Scotland

Someone removed my note about Perth being named after Perth Scotland stating that it required a citation. This is ridiculous - the page, like most Wiki pages contains hundreds of other facts that do not reference a citation. Citations are great if you have the info available, but people should not be prevented from adding due to lack of citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GrandPoohBah (talk • contribs) 15:59, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually citing is a requirement, as its part of the lead which is a summary of information presented in the article body the necessity for a cite is rather pointy. Gnangarra 16:07, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Also the evidence suggests it was not named after Perth, but after Perthshire, a much bigger land area which I was led to believe in history classes that Captain James Stirling once called home. Orderinchaos 21:26, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

What evidence ? I was always taught that it was named after Perth. GrandPoohBah —Preceding unsigned comment added by GrandPoohBah (talk • contribs) 01:20, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Stirling named it Perth at the request of Sir George Murray, who was born in Perth, Scotland, and was Colonial Secretary and MP for Perthshire at the time. I'll check Appleyard & Manford (1979) The Beginning: European Discovery and Early Settlement of Swan River Western Australia tonight, and confirm the details. Meanwhile, I think it reasonable to leave it in, as it is broadly correct, citation or not.

The reversions were made by Ckatz, a Canadian, who probably knows nought about the subject, and was simply reverting on principle. He is within his rights to do so, but it does seem a rather senseless exercise.

Hesperian 01:35, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure Stirling had a specific request that it be named "Perth", rather an instruction where to place the city (which he ignored anyway as Murray wanted it either at Cockburn Sound or near the confluence of the Canning and Swan Rivers - Point Heathcote) - Murray's instructions dated 30th December 1828 including transcripts. But anyway, whether it was named after Perth, Scotland or Perthshire is largely moot and it is undisputed it was named after one or the other. As well as Stirling, other influential Scotsmen like Peter Broun and James Drummond at the colony no doubt had some influence. The choice of name caused some consternation. A general statement needs to be in the article regardless. —Moondyne 04:13, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Ah cool, makes more sense now :) I forgot about Murray. (Head cold ain't helping either.) Orderinchaos 20:15, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

In response to Hesperian's comment, there's really no need to be insulting, to presume my intentions, or to assume a lack of knowledge based on nationality. I see now that there was more detail later in the article, so in retrospect I probably wouldn't have reverted. However, the later text isn't cited either, which should be addressed. --Ckatz^chat_spy 08:14, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Is "Canadian" an insult now? Hesperian 23:20, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

---

On reviewing the books at my disposal, it is clear that the only documentary material available on the source of the name "Perth" is Fremantle's diary entry for 12 August, which states

"On the 12th our Party increased, & there being no stone contiguous for our purpose, to celebrate the commencement of the new Town, Mrs. Dance cut down a tree; fired Volleys, made Speeches & gave several Cheers; named the Town Perth according to the wishes of Sir George Murray."

That it was at Murray's request is therefore the only thing we can say with any certainty; any suggestion that it was named after Perth or Perthshire is speculation. Logical and likely, yes, but speculation nonetheless.

The restraint shown by my sources is admirable; not one of them leaps to the conclusion that our Perth is named after Murray's Perth. Appleyard and Manford (1979) The Beginning and Statham-Drew (2003) James Stirling merely quote Fremantle's diary, and leave it to the reader to draw their own conclusions. Uren (1948) Land Looking West, Crowley (1960) Australia's Western Third and Stannage (1981) A New History of Western Australia go a little further by saying that the name was in honour of Murray, who was Member for Perthshire in the House of Commons.

Therefore I think it inappropriate for this article to baldly state what none of my sources does. I will refactor the claim in the article. Hesperian 12:02, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I submit this diff for your consideration. Hesperian 12:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

• Looks good, and is certainly an improvement. Your scholarship is much appreciated! - Gobeirne 20:01, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Well Done - thanks ! GrandPoohBah 01:23, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I also updated the Perth disambiguation page: diff Comte0 18:16, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

It is surely rather nitpicking to worry whether the city is named after the town of Perth or after the county of Perthshire, given that Perthshire itself is named after Perth. It's just a question of whether the naming is direct or indirect. Either way the ultimate source for the name is the town of Perth. -- Derek Ross | Talk 21:05, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

interesting side thought while we argue over whether its named after Perth or Perthshire the person to whom the naming is attributed isnt considered as being a person of note from Perthshire#Notable people from Perthshire ...by the editors of that article Gnangarra 09:38, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Economy Sec

what the hell this city produces?what they live of?services, industries, financial sectors? what is the Gross Regional Product!

all this should be included in this section guys!any body has any info about Perth's Economy?EdwinCasadoBaez 04:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The Perth metropolis/urban area would hardly warrant much of an economy section. Its just place where people live and work. Economy of Western Australia is the right place for this material. —Moondyne 08:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Demographics

The recent edits to the demographic section [2] may or may not be correct in listing the Malaysians as the third largest group of "settlers". However by deleting reference to Italians and other southern Europeans it grossly distorts the situation where these ethnic groups are of very considerable importance in Perth. I would like somebody with access (and expertise) in the relevant statistics to have a look at setting the record straight. Paul Fisher (talk) 13:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Checking the source confirms that the edit was correct, though possibly it could be worded better - the apparent distortion is due to the fact that the number of Malaysian, South African and Italian immigrants (only) is virtually identical. There is still reference to Italy in the article. Gazjo (talk) 06:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Name/use of this page

Am I only one who thinks:

1. this article should really be at Perth Metropolitan Area?
2. we should have a separate article on the CBD/6000 postcode area at this page? The official name of the 6000 area is "Perth City", so the CBD article could also go at Perth City, Western Australia. I have two reasons:

• this sense of the name "Perth" is not adequately covered by this article or City of Perth (local government area)
• thanks to politicians and bureaucrats the 6000 postcode area straddles both the City of Perth and the Town of Vincent.

That would give us three articles, dealing with the separate senses of "Perth": the suburb, the local government area (City of Perth) and the metro area. What do others think?

Grant | Talk 02:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the need for separation but this article should be the metropolitan area (this is consistent with other cities in Australia and around the world). The question which kind of stalled last time I raised it was what to call the suburb article - Perth city centre and Perth CBD were deemed inappropriate as (1) city centre seems to include the area between at least the Freeway, if not Thomas Street, and the WACA, and (2) it excludes the meandering bit of the suburb going up to Walcott Street. Melbourne got around this question by ignoring (2) (part of the suburb of Melbourne goes quite some way down St Kilda Road south of the Yarra), but I'm not sure what we should do. Agreed that the status quo is not where we should remain, though. Orderinchaos 06:38, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Just did a quick map there - the shaded yellow area enclosed in the dotted line is the "city centre". The coloured areas represent gazetted suburb boundaries (other than Kings Park which is simply enclosed by such), while the grey line represents the City of Perth/Town of Vincent boundary, which cuts through all three suburbs in question. Orderinchaos 07:38, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the need for a change. Hows about:

• Perth, Western Australia - a disambiguation page
• City of Perth - the LGA
• Perth metropolitan area, Western Australia - most of what this is now and what will presumably be the main article. (I added a scoping statement to History of Perth, Western Australia)
• Perth (CBD), Western Australia - the city centre/CBD, exact boundaries to be defined, but broadly OIC's dotted line boundary above is fine with me. The right name for this is problematical but it shouldn't be a hindrance to writing the article, and a few redirects won't do any harm.

—Moondyne 08:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems we are getting somewhere. "CBD" to me suggests the area south of the railway line. Why not use Perth City, Western Australia (which is the official name) or Perth (6000), Western Australia? That will include the Cultural Centre, the Beaufort-Lord-Newcastle-Railway area, the "rump" in Vincent (etc) which will otherwise not be included in an article on a suburb. Grant | Talk 08:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

We probably wouldn't need to disambiguate "Perth metropolitan area" if we go with Moondyne's suggestion on that - and we need to be clear that we are referring to the Metropolitan Region Scheme area (940k PDF) which is also defined by the ABS as the Perth Statistical Division (quick map) (they're identical), so that people don't try to add Mandurah in there, or leave out Rockingham/Mundaring/Serpentine/Jarrahdale/Bullsbrook areas which are inside the line. I tend to agree with Grant on the suburb basis for the simple reason that no CBD area has ever been officially defined or gazetted (my line above is essentially OR). Is there a source for the name "Perth City" btw? (I believe it, but GA seems to disagree) Orderinchaos 11:47, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll be more equivocal re the CBD def and will contact CoP tomorrow to find out if they have a definition we can use (they may have a planning document somewhere). After discussing the whole thing with an offline friend, though, I think "Perth" should be the metropolitan area - Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane etc point to articles about their metro areas. Orderinchaos 11:53, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The ref and further reading is worse than pathetic - as I am on the road i might not be able to populate the area - off the top of my head there should be up to 6 or 8 books that are essential history reading - but all the discussion above might preculde or include the very odd 'northbrdge project' government mob and website too SatuSuro 12:11, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Books such as "A New History of Western Australia" by Tom Stannage (1981), "A Fine Country To Starve In" by Geoffrey Bolton (1972), "Australia's Western Third" by F.K. Crowley (1960), Current Affairs Bulletin 37(7) (1965) which I have a copy of, together with the Political Chronicle series which chart controversies in the 1960s and 1970s re development and urban growth, may all be useful for the history section. Orderinchaos 12:54, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Why not

• Perth, Western Australia -- current article
• City of Perth -- LGA
• Perth (suburb), Western Australia -- suburb article, includes CBD.

and then create Perth, Western Australia (Dab) which has a link from Perth, Western Australia for other uses of Perth within Perth, Western Australia. Gnangarra 12:50, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a goer to me. (Either Perth (suburb) or Perth City) Orderinchaos 12:54, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, both would be fine. "Perth City" is what it says on some Landgate webpages, although others just say Perth and Australia Post simply refers to the 6000 postcode area as "Perth".

BTW, nice map Order, will be useful for the proposed article. Grant | Talk 06:12, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Go for Gnangarra's suggestions. Kransky (talk) 08:17, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Whilst we should create an article for the 6000 suburb, I don't think Perth, Western Australia should as a result morph into an article solely about the metropolitan area. The history of the CBD belongs here just as much as in an article about the CBD itself, as it remains the focus of the metropolitan area and is in no small part what the metro area has grown around. - Mark 15:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I'd imagine that we'd handle that using the "main" convention, so this article would contain history, geography, natural history, culture, politics and government, having a subsection dealing with the CBD that has a "main" tag linking to the CBD article; while the CBD article would be more like any suburb article focussing on local history, prominent buildings, development of the CBD (eg. new Century City etc) and such things. Orderinchaos 07:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Original?

Is this the original Perth? —Preceding unsigned comment added by LagosGuy (talk • contribs) 05:53, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

No, that would be Perth, Scotland. -- Mattinbgn\^talk 06:37, 25 February 2008 (UTC)