Talk:Pay Money to My Pain

Move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 07:31, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

Pay Money to My Pain → Pay money To my Pain — The name of the band in all reliable sources is "Pay money To my Pain". Not "Pay Money To My Pain". This is clearly shown in the band's name's abbreviation "P.T.P" and not "P.M.M.P".—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 09:55, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

• Note: MOSTM does not apply to the names of bands. As it stands, WP:MOSMUSIC#Capitalization imposes something in conflict with other guidelines.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:38, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose – Per WP:MOSTM it should confirm to style already in use. The most appropriate style would be WP:MOSMUSIC which says nouns & the first word in a compound preposition are to be capitalized. "Money" is a noun, therefore it is capitalized. "My Pain" is a compound preposition, so "My" is to be capitalized & "Pain" is to be capitalized due t being a noun. "To" is a grammatical particle & is not listed as one of the items to be capitalized. 「gu1dry」⊤ • ¢  11:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
  • There is nothing on WP:MOSTM or WP:MOSMUSIC that says anything concerning band names. MOSMUSIC only concerns song and album titles. "My Pain" is not a preposition, either.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:14, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
    • WP:MOSTM says "Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, even if the trademark owner considers nonstandard formatting 'official'". Powers ^T 20:52, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
      • I don't see how that has to do with having some letters capitalized normally and some are not. WP:MOSTM only seems to cover ALL CAPS or no caps. Not "Oh, they decided to not capitalize the words with M and capitalize the 'to'". I've started a discussion at WT:MOS concerning some other titles, and I've mentioned this page as well.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 20:57, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
        • WP:MOSMUSIC#Capitalization says under point 3 "Standard English text formatting and capitalization rules apply to the names of bands and individual artists (see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (trademarks) and Wikipedia:Proper names)." Since this is a band name you would refer to WP:MOSTM; please read all of WP:MOSTM. "My" is a preposition due to defines who's "Pain". 「gu1dry」⊤ • ¢  21:26, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
          • For the record, "To" is the preposition; "my pain" is the prepositional object. Powers ^T 00:18, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:MOSTM. Powers ^T 20:52, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Why is there a distinction made between groups of people and individual people when it comes to unorthodox capitalizations?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 00:55, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
    • Well, I'm kind of ambivalent on that particular distinction, myself; I'd be about as happy standardizing all article titles. I believe the reasoning for the exception was that because names are such a personal element of an individual's identity, that we are best off respecting a person's preferences when it comes to the capitalization of his or her name. Band names are more akin to corporate branding than individual identity. Powers ^T 02:32, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
      • A band's name isn't really as much a corporate branding as it is an artistic choice by the group.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:41, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
        • Don't argue it with me; I didn't come up with the idea. Powers ^T 03:09, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
          • Well, it is good to bring this up for discussion so it could perhaps be changed.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 03:13, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
            • I don't think it will be changed as a result of what we discuss here; it needs wider discussion in a more central location. Powers ^T 13:26, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
              • I've already started some discussion on the issue at WT:MOS where I have brought up the disparity between treating articles on individuals (American musician will.i.am and Canadian musician k.d. lang) and treating articles on groups of people (bands defspiral, angela (band), m.o.v.e, and Pay money To my Pain).—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 20:00, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose As it stands, Wikipedia does not pander to the pathetic attempts by certain bands to make themselves look important by using ridiculous capitalisation. And long may that situation remain. How the hell will.i.am got through, God only knows! Arseholes, the lot of them! Skinsmoke (talk) 06:20, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
  • What "pandering"? Per Wikipedia:MOSCAPS#Mixed_or_non-capitalization, if the names of individual people are allowed to have mixed or non-capitalization, there's no reason why this band whose name that appears in all reliable sources (WP:COMMONNAME) which is rendered as "Pay money To my Pain" should not have an article at that title.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 06:43, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
    • Skinsmoke, I don't see a need to disparage or insult anyone in order to discuss this question. I can address how will.i.am "got through", at least partly. He's not called "William", but his name is pronounced "Will I Am". Nobody styles it that way, however, and we don't invent completely new formats for stage names. We follow sources. Regarding capitalization, I'm less sure about that particular case.

      In the case under consideration here, I'd be inclined to use the non-standard capitalization if and only if a preponderance of reliable secondary sources do so. -GTBacchus^(talk) 18:17, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

      • WP:COMMONNAME does NOT apply to stylization or formatting. 「gu1dry」⊤ • ¢  22:20, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
        • According to the various users who primarily work with the manual of style, COMMONNAME most certainly does apply to this situation.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:00, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
          • Actually, WP:COMMONNAME applies to whatever Wikipedians decide to apply it to, precisely in situations such as this one. -GTBacchus^(talk) 00:16, 13 January 2011 (UTC)
• Comment. Are there any English-language reliable secondary sources referring to this band as "Pay Money to My Band"? If not, the parenthesis in the first sentence of the second paragraph of WP:MOSTM applies, and WP:COMMONNAME does as well. --11:02, 12 January 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by A. di M. (talk • contribs)

As a side note (and as an outside editor): while the Smart car is called "smart" with a lowercase 's' by the company themselves, Wikipedia sticks to proper capitalization in that case. I agree with that there, and agree with it here. Heck, even e.e. cummings is capitalized in his article, and AFAIK he's the one who came up with this kind of behaviour.  ⊂| Mr.choppers |⊃  (talk) 08:57, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

At WT:MOS, it was discussed that MOS:TM gets in the way of stating certain items are treated as trademarks when they shouldn't be, and the way it is styled on Wikipedia should resemble the way that it is styled in all other reliable sources. FWIW, "e.e. cummings" never preferred to be known in a serious context by that moniker, and only used that style in his works. In contrast, PTP is universally referred to as "Pay money To my Pain" in all reliable sources, and the reading at MOS:TM has always stated to use styles that are in use rather than making ones up. Nowhere is this band referred to as "Pay Money to My Pain". Enforcing that incorrect style over a correct one that has no technical restrictions is against the various guidelines in place.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 09:09, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose: Standard English capitalizations rules apply to bands per WP:Manual of Style (music)#Capitalization and WP:MOSTM. Aspects (talk) 07:28, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
  • WP:MOSTM does not apply to band names as determined here. The music Manual of Style needs to be fixed. And even if MOSTM applied, "Pay money To my Pain" is the most common style in use, not "Pay Money to My Pain".—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:34, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

WP:MOSTM violation

All of the opposition to the move stems from an incorrect application of WP:MOSTM. It very clearly states "When deciding how to format a trademark, editors should choose among styles already in use (not invent new ones)" (emphasis mine). There are no reliable sources or any sources where this group is referred to as "Pay Money to My Pain". So as it stands, the current location of this article violates WP:MOSTM and WP:AT.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 07:55, 20 January 2011 (UTC)