Talk:Naughty but Nice (1939 film)

Title

As is the case with Naughty but Nice (1927 film)., the actuial name given to this film by the filmmakers is "Naughty But Nice" and not "Naughty but Nice". This overrides the general MOS conventions concerning caps. Please do not revert again without a consensus to do so on this talk page. BMK (talk) 12:38, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 07:12, 4 August 2014 (UTC)

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Naughty But Nice (1939 film) → Naughty but Nice (1939 film) – Per MOS:CT, short coordinating conjunctions, including "but", should not be capitalized in the titles of composition titles. BOVINEBOY2008 12:41, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

• No move. As always, the actual names of things prevail over our general capitalization conventions, which are, after all, mere guidelines and not mandatory. BMK (talk) 12:50, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
  • It seems that you have decided that consensus is against the guideline without any discussion, so we'll see... BOVINEBOY2008 12:52, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
    • It seems that you are not aware that this has been discussed numerous times before, and the consensus was indeed that the actual, real-life title of things trumps our guideline. We're not here to re-write reality, we're here to report it. BMK (talk) 12:56, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: (edit conflict) Beyond My Ken, I'm stumped as to why you said that the filmmakers capitalizing "But" makes MOS:CT irrelevant, not to mention MOS:TMRULES. I know it's a guideline, but what is the point of a guideline if we just disregard it? Any film could theoretically capitalize any number of letters, and we don't tend to acknowledge these differences. I can't think of any film article where "and", "at", "an", "a", "the", "of", etc. are capitalized, unless it's the first word (like An Education or Of Mice and Men). Is there somewhere that you can direct me that discusses why the "actual names of things" should prevail over the MOS? I'm not wanting this to go how Star Trek Into Darkness went, but I am a bit confused by your rationale opposing this move. Sock (previously Corvoe) ^{(be heard)} 12:58, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Apologies, your last comment hadn't pulled up when I posted that. Can you link to the consensus-establishing discussion, please? I'd like to read it through before making a decision. Sock (previously Corvoe) ^{(be heard)} 13:00, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Not at this moment, I'm heading off to bed. But please consider the import of your previous comment. It makes it sound as if you are in favor of our altering the real world to our own specifications, rather then simply reporting what exists in the real world as it actually exists! That doesn't sound particularly encyclopedic to me. BMK (talk) 13:04, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

Well, I actually see both sides of this argument. If the title of something, anything, does not comport with our style guidelines, than we should go with the actual title. I wish I could think of an actual example, but can't right off the top of my head, so if the title of the film is Naughty But Nice, than that's how the title of the article should read. However, having said that, I can find no conclusive evidence that this is the case. The AFI database lists it is Naughty but Nice. TCM has the entire title in caps, but in its article section on the film, it seems to lean towards the capital B (although, like Variety, it uses both). The two contemporaneous sources, Variety and the New York Times, don't agree, with the Times going with Naughty But Nice, and Variety actually using both (capital B in the title of the article, small B in the body of the article). AllMovie uses the capital B, but that may simply be due to their guidelines regarding titles

All that being said, my go-to for American films is usually the AFI database, and I will go with them again. Particularly because in other instances, they seem to capitalize or not capitalize "but", depending on the author's concept (e.g. Everything But the Truth for the 1920 silent film based on a short story, while it's Everything but the truth for the original screenplay of 1956). I would vote Move. One last note, if the consensus is to move this title, than I think we should also look at moving the title of the 1927 film of the same name (although no relation). Onel5969 (talk) 04:35, 29 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support move – Technically according to the trailer the title of the film is "NAUGHTY BUT NICE", but that is besides the point. WP:Local consensus does not override a community consensus, especially one which has been established by our Manual of Style. Our MOS is very specific that we should use title case for literary works and films: MOS:#Titles of works, MOS:TITLE#Capitalization, MOS:CT, WP:NCF. For this move to not go ahead then we would need a strong argument as to why title case is not appropriate in this instance (as per Star Trek Into Darkness or Dot the i) rather than "I don't agree with the MOS". Betty Logan (talk) 15:45, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support per MOS:CT. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 18:03, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support. It's not particularly important to me whether the B is capitalized or not; in cases like this, I find it useful to default to the guideline, which prevents edit wars over individual preferences. We can report how the title is stylized, but we are under no obligation to follow the lead of primary sources, which we are specifically advised to discount in these kinds of disputes. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 21:13, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support move per all above. I'm not convinced the capital B is of enough relevance to change the titling from our standards. Sock (previously Corvoe) ^{(be heard)} 23:04, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Ping BMK

Hi. Can you explain your changes against the MOS? Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 08:06, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken: - please discuss. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 08:09, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

[1]

Awesome. Keep it up. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 08:16, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

@Beyond My Ken:, @Lugnuts:. Per MOS:CT, the but should not be capitalized. Which was the consensus regarding the title of the article in the above discussion (of which I participated). Per WP:ARTCON we also have a guideline that says follow the capitalization of the original title. (Perhaps we should add that to MOS:CT). All that being said, I've learned more about how to research these older films. Contemporary sources seem to indicate that there was even confusion during the time of the production of the film, with the Film Daily (FD), using both. However, by its release, FD had settled on the capitalized version, which you can seehere in their review. Harrison's Reports only uses the capital, as an example is their review,here. Modern Screen also uses the capital, here; Motion Picture Daily was also consistent in capitalizing the B, as was the Motion Picture Herald. There's an article in Photoplay which would indicate the B should be used, here, and they are consistent in its use in all their mentions of the film; as does Silver Screen, an example of which is here. As BMK pointed out in one of his edit summaries, Variety is mixed. However, almost all of the "b"s happen in their simple listings; in their articles which contain the title, they are consistent in the use of "B", here for example.

I was really looking for ads by WB, which are pretty much, in my opinion, what the author of the piece wanted the title to be. The best I found was here, which would indicate the b should be used.

Per the consensus above which was to go with "b" in the title, and per WP:ARTCON, the b should probably be used throughout the article, unless we open another discussion regarding the title. I'm listing this at the film project to see if we can't generate some discussion. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 14:03, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

I say stick to the above consensus, and the manual of style. The film poster is in all caps anyway, so it wasn't like it was marketed heavily with an unconventional title, and print sources at the day no doubt will have had their own style guides to which we need not be beholden. So a little "b" is what to go with. Now, I prefer a medium "C" but that's neither here nor there. GRAPPLE ^X 14:19, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I changed the small "b" to a large one, but changed it back, so there's no issue there on my part. BMK (talk) 17:31, 24 September 2015 (UTC)