Talk:Muhammad III of Granada

How much of this information is true?

I think this page needs to be reviewed --Sideshowmel0329 (talk) 18:57, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Muhammad III of Granada/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Gog the Mild (talk · contribs) 20:42, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

On my list. Give me a couple of days. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:42, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

I have done some copy editing. As usual, don't hesitate to flag up anything you are not happy with.

• Thanks, it looks great! HaEr48 (talk) 12:32, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

• Optional: Consider alt text for the images.
  • Done. HaEr48 (talk) 12:32, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
• "They belonged to the Nasrid clan—also known as Banu Nasr or Banu al-Ahmar—which according to later Granadan historian and vizier Ibn al-Khatib, was descended from Sa'd ibn Ubadah, a prominent companion of the Islamic prophet Muhammad, from the Banu Khazraj tribe in Arabia; Sa'd's descendants migrated to Spain and settled in Arjona as farmers." This sentence is a little long and
  • Split into two. HaEr48 (talk) 12:32, 4 September 2019 (UTC)
• Kennedy should have a publisher location.
  • Done. HaEr48 (talk) 12:32, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

It seems to be in very good shape. Let me leave it for a day or two, and then give it another read through. Gog the Mild (talk) 11:51, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Thanks Gog the Mild for taking a look! HaEr48 (talk) 12:33, 4 September 2019 (UTC)

Nice article. A pleasure to assess. Promoting. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:21, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

What does Rachel Arie say?

Please tell me what Rachel Arie says in your understanding? I can read the French. Please also tell me how you came to write "one of.' Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:54, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Rachel Arié says that Ibn al-Khatib reproduced a qasida of Muhammad III in al-Lamha. But when we look at the page she cited in al-Lamha (cited and linked), we find two separate poems by Muhammad III. I don't know if that means Arié only thinks that one of them is a qasida, and if yes, which one is the qasida, (or alternatively, she might have just not bothered to include the exact count) but they're both Muhammad III's poems according to Ibn al-Khatib, and the one quoted in the article is only one of them. That's why I prefer "Some of the poems that he composed are preserved in Ibn al-Khatib's Al-Lamha, and one of them reads:" which doesn't contradict any of the information or make any unwarranted assumption, rather than your "According to scholar Rachel Arié a qasida of Muhammad III is reproduced in its entirety in Ibn al-Khatib's Al-Lamha:", which (1) assumes that the qasida is the one that follows (2) the paraphrasing is too close (3) has "According to scholar Rachel Arié" which IMO is not necessary for a non-controversial statement. HaEr48 (talk) 17:15, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

"Some of the poems?" Who says that? Rachel Arié does not. In the French fragment you have supplied with ellipses in the beginning, she says only,"... Lisān al-dīn a reproduit intégralement une qaṣīda composée par Muhammad III," i.e. "Lisan al-din (i.e. al-Khatib) has reproduced in its entirety a qasida composed by Muhammad III." What does it mean for a "paraphrasing to be too close" in a translation from French to English? We can easily change it to, "According to Rachel Arié, a poem of Muhammad III is presented in full in Ibn al-Khatib's Al-Lamha." If you don't like a mention of Arie, we can say, "A poem of Muhammad III is presented in full in Ibn al-Khatib's Al Lamha." You don't have anything more than that. You can't add the word "some" by doing OR on a blurry image scan, especially when you refuse to give me the Arabic script (in-text) for the top two lines of the scanned page. "Unremarkable" is not good enough.

It's not a big deal. I'll ask some linguists tomorrow. Until then, Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:35, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Just a reminder, Wikipedia:Close paraphrasing also applies to translations, it says "the more you translate and the more closely you translate, the more likely you are to create a copyright problem." And according to WP:CALC, routine calculations (e.g. replacing "one of" by "some of" when there are clearly more than one) are not OR. HaEr48 (talk) 18:07, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Also, re. blurry scan, I agree it is not the best quality, but if you open the zoomed version in Commons rather than the thumbnail, it should be pretty readable. If you're still having problems, you could point out which word in the scan is too blurry for you to understand, I'd be happy to help. In addition we also have the Spanish translation (btw, Historia de los reyes de la Alhambra is in Spanish, not French as you said in edit summary). It's not freely available online unfortunately, but you could check with WP:RX or other resources if you'd like to see a copy. HaEr48 (talk) 18:23, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

@HaEr48: I am requesting you (some of which I have requested before and am requesting again) for: (a) Where does Ibn al-Khatib say in the 1927/28 edition of Al Lamha that "both poems are works of Muhammad III? Please provide the page number and the Arabic script. (b) What is the full French citation of Rachel Arie, and the (French) sentence before the sentence that you have kindly provided? (c) Please provide the introduction in Spanish (two lines) and the first two lines (again in Spanish) of the poem from the Spanish translation of Ibn al-Khatib, 2010 and (d) Why does page 49 (the poems) of a 152 page (with possibly 119 pages of real text) correspond to page 157-158 in the Spanish edition of 285 pages? Does the Spanish edition have a long introduction? If so how long? On what page does the actual Al Lamha text begin? All this is in consonance with MOS:QUOTE. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 19:45, 30 September 2019 (UTC)