Talk:Muḥammad ibn Ibrāhīm al-Fazārī

Arab

Muhammad al-Fazari, comes from an arab tribe from Farazi`ah in yemen [1]. Here is a detailed biography of al-farazi in arabic [2]which takes it sources from arabic primary sources written thousands years ago. Notice the sentence " ولد في الكوفة لأسرة عربية أصيلة ينحدر أصلها من فزارة ثم سكنت الكوفة." which proves my point. There is also an english reference posted in the article. Jidan 15:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

That's simply wrong. The vast majority of sources in English indicate that he was Persian, and the family came from Afghanistan. --Mardavich 16:14, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

From Afghanistan? WHERE is the source????? Jidan 16:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

The family tree is now clear to me. The Family tree goes like this: "وبنو فزارة من ذبيان من غطفان" translated: banu fazarah from dhabian from GhaTafan ( غطفان). Ghatafan was an arab adnanite tribe [3]. The source is in arabic though. Jidan 16:39, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Sources

I removed this source "D. E. Smith and L. C. Karpinski: The Hindu-Arabic Numerals (Boston, 1911), p.92.)." It does not say anything about this guy being Persian. See this link [4]. --Lanov 14:55, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

That's only one of these false sources. --Lanov 14:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Configurations of Culture Growth By A. L. (Alfred Louis) Kroeber, does not say that Al-Fazari is Persian nor it says he is an Arab. Have a look at page 127 in google books [5], then have a look at the complete page in this link [6]. I scanned this page.

I scanned pages from another book. The German one which has a title of Die Mathematiker und Astronomen der Araber (trnsl. The mathematicians and astronomers of the Arabs). SEE those two links [7] [8]. Since I can't read German, I copied the portion about al-Fazaris, the father and the son, and asked German wikipedian to translate it. This is what he/she gave me [9].

I will remove the first book completely and will keep the second one since it was here before Mardavich enlightened us by these false sources. --Lanov 18:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I just read the 2 pages you posted of Die Mathematiker und Astronomen der Araber. He doesn't mention the ethnicity and just calls him muslim. But he mentions that he published a book of tables according to the arabian years. This is the fourth false source posted by User:Mardavich. Seriusly, does this guy feel absolutly no shame? Jidan 15:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

So, another false source. Nothing about his ethnicity. I'm gonna keep the source since it was here before. --Lanov 02:39, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Sources

Reliable sources have been provided that explicitly say or imply that Al-Fazaris were Persian. For example, Ervin Lewis says "...by the time the Persian geographer Al-Fazari was writing in AD 773-774..." or Ralph Westwood Moore states that "In Syriac, a treatise on the astrolabe which certainly derives from Greek sources; and the Persian al-Fazari, who died about 777". The man's family came from Afghanistan, just because he's named after some Arab tribe, doesn't mean he's an Arab, otherwise we can use your logic to say Al-Isfahanii was a Persian because he's named after Isfahan, a Persian city. Thank you. --Mardavich 19:18, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

There are also sources that say he was arab like this:

Scott L. Montgomery. Science in Translation: movements of knowledge through cultures and time. p. 81. "[one] of the astrologers consulted on the propitious moment for the foundation of Baghdad was Muhammad ibn Ibraheem al-Fazari, the section of an ancient Arab family of al-Kufa." Why do you keep deleting ALL other sources? Jidan 00:44, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

And why don't you post the whole passage? Maybe this al-Fazari is someone else, since al-Fazari was not a geographer?? Jidan 00:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

What is your point? Weren't you claiming before that anyone with the name al-Fazari is automatically an Arab? The sources are talking about al-Fazari family, the father and son. "...the section of an ancient Arab family of al-Kufa" can't be referring to al-Fazari, the sentence makes no sense, grammatically or otherwise. By the way, I provided a new source that explicitly states that al-Fazari is famous, in part, for his extensive work in Persian. Back then, not many Arabs knew or studied Persian, even most Persians wrote in Arabic. --Mardavich 00:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

You didn't answer to any of my questions, and this is actually the answer I was execpting. My opinion is not important. Me and Lanov provided you sources that say he was arab. You removed them all [10]...Why? Jidan 01:10, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The source is talking about Al-Fazari not Al-Fazari family. I admit that I made a mistake when quoting from this source. the quote must be like this "[one] of the astrologers consulted on the propitious moment for the foundation of Baghdad was Muhammad ibn Ibraheem al-Fazari, the scion of an ancient Arab family of al-Kufa." [11] Anyhow, saying that he is not an Arab because he knew Persian is based on your original research. Please do not talk without sources.

Now, why the source I provided is not reliable ?--Lanov 05:26, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

The source From Freedom to Freedom: African roots in American soils, (what a reliable title for science history), doesn't mention him by name. Therefore, I removed it. Jidan 13:34, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I think I know how Mardvich got all these sources. He just went to google book search and typed "persian Al-Fazari". Then he posted in this article all results given by the search engine, although the results sometimes are not readable, or just a line is readable. This might be an explanition why 4 out of the 8 sources he orginally posted didn't mention anything about him being persian. I will not be surprised if the rest sources he posted also don't mention him as persian as well. Jidan 13:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Are you kidding? The source you removed explicitly says "...by the time the Persian geographer Al-Fazari was writing in AD 773-774. I'm putting it back. Who else could that be referring to? There are only two famous Al-Fazaris at that time, Ibrahim and Mohammad, the father and son--Mardavich 14:06, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

So Mardavich, what do you think of my source? Why you don't accept it? --Lanov 14:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Sources saying he was an Arab

Here I quote from the sources I added:

1. Syed: "[al-Fazari] is said to have been the first arab to make an astrolabe"
   
2. Munson: "It definitely predates 800 when the Arab geographer al-Fazari referred to the kingdom"
   
3. Montgomery: "[one] of the astrologers consulted on the propitious moment for the foundation of Baghdad was Muhammad ibn Ibraheem al-Fazari, the scion of an ancient Arab family of al-Kufa."
   
4. Abramovich: "al-fazari, who worked with a scholar from Sind on the translation of the astronmical work, the Sindhind (from Sanskrit. 'perfected'), was of Arab descent."
   
5. Kumar: "Some of the Arab writers, espically Al Fazari, the writer of Sind-Hind ..."
   
6. Savage-Smith: "[Ibn al-Amid criticized] the treatise on the use of the armillary sphere by al-Fazari, one of the earliest Arab astronomers".
   
7. Pingree: "Though this passage is not very illuminating with respect to the contents of al-Fazari's works, we do learn from it that he was of an old Arab family from Kufa..." --Lanov 02:35, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

All Muslims scientists used to be called "Arab", but this is being slowly disregarded within western academia. I am removing the sources that don't use Arab explicitly in an ethnic sense, bur rather in a linguistic/cultural sense. The only sources referring to him as Arab in ethnic sense are Abramovich, Pingree and Montgomery, while most modern sources refer to Fazari as Persian, I am rewording the article accordingly until I can find irrefutable evidence that he was Persian. --Mardavich 04:21, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

This was just a test to see your reaction. I still have other sources. You still have false sources in this article and you have to remove them or I will report you. I'm not threatening you in any way, it's just that everything I said about you turned out to be right. As usual you deleted sources because you don't like them, the transl. of Irshad al-Arib fi Ma'rifat al-Adib. Anyone who reads what you wrote above is gonna translate it to "This is my article, you can't do whatever you like with it, even if you have irrefutable evidence like you gave me (Abramovichm Pingree and Montgomery). I will keep on looking and looking and because I did not find any sources I will try to give some false sources every now and then" --Lanov 17:35, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

You need to review WP:AGF and WP:Civility,and be respectful of other editors' opinions and comments. --Mardavich 17:49, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Why you want me to AGF on you when you don't AGF on me. I told you before you never see me referring to a well know Persian scientists as Arabs. You reverted my sourced edits couple of time without giving me any reasons (until now). Why you want me to be respectful of other editors' opinions when you are not respectful of my opinions. From WP:AGF "This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary. Actions inconsistent with good faith include repeated vandalism, confirmed malicious sockpuppetry, and lying. Assuming good faith also does not mean that no action by editors should be criticized, but instead that criticism should not be attributed to malice unless there is specific evidence of malice. Editors should not accuse the other side in a conflict of not assuming good faith in the absence of reasonable supporting evidence." --Lanov 18:26, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

He is grandson of the SAHABI Samra ibn Jundub Al-Fazari سمرة بن جندب الفزاري

He was an Arab;he is the grand son of the sahabi سمرة بن جندب الفزاري Sumra ibn Jundub Al-Fazari [12] [13][14][15][16].Therefore how come he is Persian???!!!. I’ll remove the word Persian from both articles (Him and his father) since thier grand father is well-known as Arab, in addition he is not related to Iran because simply he lived in Iraq.--Aziz1005 17:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to proceed with the merge. Amitchell125 (talk) 19:26, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

---

I propose merging Ibrāhīm al-Fazārī into Muḥammad ibn Ibrāhīm al-Fazārī. I think the content in Ibrāhīm al-Fazārī can easily be explained in the context of Muḥammad ibn Ibrāhīm al-Fazārī, as modern sources identify that they are likely the same person (despite what earlier sources state). A merger would not cause any article-size or weighting problems in Muḥammad ibn Ibrāhīm al-Fazārī.

The earlier confusion would be discussed in the merged article. Amitchell125 (talk) 06:48, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

• Merge – Early sources distinguish between father and son or do not mention the father (here); more modern sources acknowledge the scholarly confusion that exists, or say there was only one person (e.g. here and here). Amitchell125 (talk) 07:03, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.