Talk:Martin Ffolkes

ffolkes

The family name is spelled with lower case "ff". TomS TDotO (talk) 12:19, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

• [1] [2] Алексей Галушкин (talk) 12:57, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Not in WP:RS The Church Heraldry of Norfolk: pt. V. Hundreds of South Erpingham, ... Edmund Farrer - 1889 In ictu oculi (talk) 11:04, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

After this move, move Sir William ffolkes, 2nd Baronet to Ff also. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:06, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 3 March 2019

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move at this time, following extensive time for discussion. bd2412 T 02:06, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Martin Ffolkes → Martin ffolkes – This page has been moved from its proper place, without giving any reason, or without discussing it. My guess is that the editor was in the mistaken impression that there was a typographical error (one which has persisted for years. TomS TDotO (talk) 12:42, 3 March 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. B dash (talk) 13:44, 14 March 2019 (UTC)

• Comment. Both of the cited sources used in the article appear to capitalise his name. In fact one of them spells his name as "Folkes" (with a single F). PC78 (talk) 17:20, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose clearly a typo caused by OCR error. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:04, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per In ictu. Dohn joe (talk) 16:42, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support. A double "ff" at the beginning of a name is often written in lower-case and is perfectly correct, so this is not any sort of typo. Both forms are seen, including among his family. We simply don't know which he preferred, so given both sources were written long after his death and may well have made the same assumption that it was incorrect not to capitalise I think we should probably leave it as originally written. It's certainly not incorrect. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:09, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
• Comment. As the originator, I shouldn't have a vote. But I will explain. H.W. Fowler, A Dictionary of Modern English Usage, 2nd editon revised by Sir Ernest Gowers, 1965, has an entry on page 198: "ff. In old manuscripts the capital F was sometimes written ff. This is the origin of the curious spelling of some English surnames: ... ffoulkes ...". It is not "clearly a typo". It was deliberate. Lower case ff may be a mistake, or upper case F may be hypercorrection. TomS TDotO (talk) 15:30, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
• Support. It appears that "ff" is an obsolete way of writing "F", not a doubled /f/ sound as such. So spelling it "Ffolkes" would change the pronunciation to use a doubled /f/ sound, which is clearly wrong. JIP | Talk 21:32, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
• Comment. List of digraphs in Latin alphabets#F tells us, but without reference, "Very rarely, ⟨ff⟩ may be found word-initially in English, such as in proper names (e.g., Rose ffrench, Jasper Fforde)." Still, the only references cited for this instance have been for upper-case <F>. But may I point out that the speculation of OCR error could work both ways. TomS TDotO (talk) 12:58, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Inclined to oppose based on the above discussion and perhaps move to Sir Martin Folkes, 1st Baronet (there is another Martin Folkes and I gather "Ff" is wrong). "ff" may well be correct historical usage, but on the other hand I don't believe we would use a long s in a similar situation. At the very least, I think it needs to be shown that "ffolkes" has common usage in modern sources. PC78 (talk) 16:55, 7 March 2019 (UTC)
• Comment: Cambridge Person Search lists his son as "ffolkes, William John Henry Browne". This is an historical person, so it might be better to refer to him as he was called during his lifetime, unless he is notable enough to have received a more modern WP:COMMONNAME. Danielklein (talk) 03:23, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per In ictu oculi, Dohn joe and PC78 — "ff" is outdated orthography from the era when "æ" ligatures were in use. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:09, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
  • They still are in use! -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:37, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.