Talk:Market Square (Lviv)

Help appreciated

Help of Ukrainian editors is highly appreciated here. Tymek (talk) 03:18, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I have a Ukrainian friend, but he's not a Wikipedia editor. What is it? @Tymek: Benjamin (talk) 01:00, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Links to years

Not a priority, but linking every year is not encouraged in WP:MOS as far as I recall. Leaving it for now to be gentle with this vast work, but someone might like to tweak out the links down the track. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:25, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

It looks really good, i do not think the years need to be tweaked.Meatsgains (talk) 03:03, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Why's it called Market Square?

I've only ever heard it called Rynok Square. Benjamin (talk) 21:17, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 30 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans (talk) 18:19, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

---

Market Square (Lviv) → Rynok Square – Market is just the english translation of the word. Benjamin (talk) 00:02, 30 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Polyamorph (talk) 15:30, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Market Square, Ivano-Frankivsk to Rynok Square (Ivano-Frankivsk)

Market Square (Lutsk) to Rynok Square (Lutsk)

Support. Natural disambiguation is preferable per WP:NCDAB.  —Michael Z. 13:44, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Suitable names for the set would be

• Rynok Square or Rynok Square, Lviv
• Rynok Square, Ivano-Frankivsk
• Rynok Square, Lutsk

Avoiding parentheses also per WP:PLACEDAB: “Generic parenthetical disambiguating tags as used for most Wikipedia articles are used only occasionally for geographic names . . . where no regional tag would be sufficient to distinguish”.

By the way, we also have an article on the Kharkiv metro station Tsentralnyi Rynok (Kharkiv Metro), named for the adjacent market whose name means “Central.”  —Michael Z. 20:51, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I thought the policy you cite applies to localities but not to streets/squares, but I would need to look at the existing practice. In any case, some of them will have to be renamed. Ymblanter (talk) 20:54, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

The intro says places and place names, and doesn’t give a smallest threshold for its application. I see places mentioned at least as small as suburbs and neighbourhoods (under NYC and South Africa). A square is a smaller place, but still a place. (A street is linear, but so is a river, and both still fundamentally have geographic names.) Anyway, this is just a specific reiteration of a principle from NCDAB.  —Michael Z. 21:22, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

At least about the rivers I am sure they do not, most (or at least a significant portion of them) have a parentetic disambiguation. Same for buildings. Ymblanter (talk) 21:29, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

I do not particularly care but if it gets moved it should be moved to Rynok Square (Lviv), since there are other Rynok Squares. In addition, it would be good to provide some arguments why Rynok Square and not Market Square is the COMMONNAME. We have plenty of examples when the COMMONNAME is in fact a translation, such as Market Square, Wrocław. Ymblanter (talk) 19:28, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

It would only need the disambiguation if there were other articles about Rynok Squares, per WP:D2D.

There’s no COMMONNAME argument about either yet, but the proposed name better serves the WP:CRITERIA and NCDAB.  —Michael Z. 20:49, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

It should be however an argument about COMMONNAME. It is not ok to consider a move without determining whether the object has a COMMONNAME. Ymblanter (talk) 21:35, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

I see no evidence presented that it has a single COMMONNAME. That is ok. More input is welcome.  —Michael Z. 03:03, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

I do not see an evidence that the market square in Lviv is the primary topic. Ymblanter (talk) 21:39, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Well, I can create an article about the Ivano-Frankivsk one, no problem. Ymblanter (talk) 21:40, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Thank you. Let’s title it Rynok Square, Ivano-Frankivsk.  —Michael Z. 14:35, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

See below, already exists. Ymblanter (talk) 19:19, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

All of the CRITERIA are satisfied:

• Recognizability: “someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in” the subject area will immediately recognize it, while others will clue in that it is a Ukrainian subject if they know the language, or at least that it is not in Western Europe or an anglophone country.
• Naturalness: as far as we know, this may be the most common English name for the subject.
• Precision: the name distinguishes this article from all others without resorting to appending disambiguation to the title.
• Concision: the title is improved by shortening.
• Consistency: many foreign place articles have titles along these lines, as discussed below. Category:Squares in Ukraine are named variously, and the other criteria overrule this one anyway per WP:CRITERIAORDER.

 —Michael Z. 14:33, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose. "Rynok" simply means "market"! Why would we combine a Ukrainian word with an English word like this? It's a weird thing to do and never to be recommended. And it's certainly not the only Rynok around by a long way, so parenthetical disambiguation is still required. Either rename it to its full Ukrainian name (Ploshcha Rynok) or keep as a full English name. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:09, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

I've only ever heard it called Rynok Square. That's what it's called on Google Maps, on signposts in the city, and that's what all my Ukrainian friends call it when speaking english. The first time I heard it called Market Square was when I looked it up on Wikipedia. Also, your claim is false, there is no other article titled Rynok Square. Benjamin (talk) 16:28, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Nobody said there was. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:55, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Then no worries about confusing it with other articles with the same title, if it's the only one. Benjamin (talk) 18:21, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes its name means “market.” It is still a proper name, which is attested by the capitalization of Площа Ринок in Ukrainian. It’s quite conventional and in many cases the only acceptable form to use a name with a geographical identifier: river Dnipro not rika Dnipro, Kyiv region not Kyivska oblast, Tarasa Shevchenka Street not vulytsia Tarasa Shevchenka, etcetera. See WP:USEENGLISH, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Use English, and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Names of classes.  —Michael Z. 17:26, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Rynok Square is more commonly used.[1]  —Michael Z. 17:45, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

You cannot compare names that are actual names of people or geographical entities with names that are simply common words that can be directly translated into English. Personally, I wouldn't translate street names at all. It's ignorant. But sadly Wikipedia allows (and even encourages) it (although oddly we don't tend to do it with streets in Western European countries - e.g. France, Italy, Germany, Spain). Incidentally, if it must be translated, it should be translated as Taras Shevchenko Street, not Tarasa Shevchenka Street, which is another crime against the English language as it suggests it's named after someone called Tarasa Shevchenka (a perfect argument for keeping it in the original language). And the word "oblast" is very commonly used in English sources as well, as I'm sure you know. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:10, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Sure you can compare them when they are proper names.

We often or mostly do not translate foreign proper names. We refer to cites Zaporizhzhia not Past-the-Rapids Town, Lviv not Lions or Leon’s, Mykolaiv not Nicholasburg, Mariupol not Marytown, Rivne not Straight, Bila Tserkva not White Church, &c., &c. I don’t know where you come up with your assertions, but we also have Unter den Linden not Under the Lindens, Champs-Élysées not College Fields, Grote Markt (Antwerp) and elsewhere not Big Market, and numerous articles entitled Piazza del Duomo and not Cathedral Square, &c. ad infinitum.

Translations are influenced by language awareness and other factors. The word piazza is naturalized in English and rue and markt are familiar or readable to a degree by literate anglophones, but Ukrainian площа (ploshcha) and вулиця (vulytsia) are not. So we follow sources and observe comparable names, and don’t pretend there is a single universal rule while lamenting the obvious evidence that there cannot be.  —Michael Z. 14:17, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Once again, you don't seem to be getting the difference between actual names and common words like river, street, square and market which merely happen to be in another language. I don’t know where you come up with your assertions, but we also have Unter den Linden not Under the Lindens, Champs-Élysées not College Fields, Grote Markt (Antwerp) and elsewhere not Big Market, and numerous articles entitled Piazza del Duomo and not Cathedral Square, &c. ad infinitum. Isn't that what I already said about Western European street names?! You seem to have missed part of what I wote. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:33, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

You’re arguing for the CRITERION of consistency, while acknowledging the absence of a universal model to be consistent with. But the existing article titles have no consistency to follow either. Looking at Ukraine alone (at the contents of Category:Squares in Ukraine and subcategories) we do have anglicized names:

• Alexander Square (Chernihiv), not Oleksandrivska
• Aviators Square (Chernihiv), not Aviatoriv
• Bohdan Khmelnytsky Square (Chernihiv), not Bohdana Khmelnytskoho
• Cathedral Square, Chernihiv, not Soborna
• Constitution Square, Kyiv, not Konstitutsii
• European Square (Kyiv), not Yevroseiska
• Five Corners Square (Chernihiv), not Piat kutiv
• Freedom Square (Kharkiv), not Svodoby
• Heroes of Stalingrad Square, not Heroiv Stalinhradu
• Lenin Square, Donetsk, not Lenina
• Maria Theresia Garden Square (Uzhhorod), not Marii Terezy
• Market Square (Lutsk), not Rynok
• Market Square (Lviv), not Rynok
• Market Square, Ivano-Frankivsk, not Rynok
• Mickiewicz Square, not Mitskevycha
• Odesa Square, not Odeska
• Old Market Square (Lviv), not Staryi Rynok
• Peoples' Friendship Square, not Peremohy
• Postal Square, not Poshtova
• Saint Michael's Square, not Mykhailivska
• Sheptytsky Square, not Sheptytskoho
• Sophia Square, not Sofiiska
• Square of Contracts (Kyiv), not Kontraktova
• Square of Ukrainian Heroes, not Ukrainskykh Heroiv
• Station Square (Chernihiv), not Vokzalna
• Victory Square, Chernihiv, not Peremohy

But we also have Ukrainian names:

• Bessarabska Square, not Bessarabian
• Demiivska Square, not Demiivka
• Halytska Square, not Galician
• Holosiivska Square, not Holosiiv or Of the Voices
• Kharkivska Square, not Kharkiv
• Krasna Square, not Beautiful
• Teatralna Square, Donetsk, not Theatre

And also the Ukrainian geographical designators ploshcha, maidan, or skver:

• Hretska Ploshcha, not Greek Square
• Kulykove Pole, not Kulikovski Field, or Kulikov Family Field
• Maidan Nezalezhnosti, not Freedom Square
• Viche Maidan, Ivano-Frankivsk, not Public Council Square

Consistency is the lowest-priority criterion, per WP:CRITERIAORDER, so the further down this list we go, the better the titles satisfy the actual CRITERIA. A number of the articles in the first group above should be renamed too.  —Michael Z. 16:11, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

You’re arguing for the CRITERION of consistency... You do seem to like putting words in my mouth. Where have I said that? -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:26, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

My apologies. I thought you were referring to consistency when you mentioned what Wikipedia uses. If your argument does relate to any guidelines, let us know which ones.  —Michael Z. 23:43, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

Oppose, per WP:USEENGLISH, Google Search shows prevalence of "Market Square" Marcelus (talk) 23:18, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

How did you determine they were references to Lviv’s square in reliable sources?  —Michael Z. 00:58, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I tried some searching and I don’t think it is possible to determine this. Can you share your search links? Recall that WP:RMCOMMENTs “based in policy, guidelines, and evidence” carry more weight.  —Michael Z. 17:33, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Actually, I just discovered that Market Square, Ivano-Frankivsk exists. (It should be either Market Square (Ivano-Frankivsk), or, if the result of this discussion is move, Rynok Square (Ivano-Frankivsk)--Ymblanter (talk) 19:17, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

As well as Market Square (Lutsk). I will add the RM template to them now as well. Ymblanter (talk) 19:18, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Also added them to this nomination.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:21, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

Note that all discussion above this point is only about Lviv. Ymblanter (talk) 19:22, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

• comment either translate the whole thing or none of it 'rynko square' is a senseless mix of two langauges. Either way it needs a dab, Lviv isn't the primary topic for a generic term in Uki—blindlynx 19:14, 6 November 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose. Given that the term is still ambiguous, even after using the translated version, I'm inclined to think it's all good as is. Basically a solution looking for a problem.  — Amakuru (talk) 13:26, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.