Talk:Manuel Armijo

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What are the chances that I should have translated alcalde as "justice of the peace" instead of "mayor"?

Is there too much detail on the battle of Santa Fe? Maybe some of the material in this article belongs there, but I thought it was all revealing of Armijo's character. —JerryFriedman 01:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Alcalde is, as far as I can tell "mayor" or equivalent. I realized that so much of my sources focus on the Battle of Santa Fe as well, and was wondering how much of that to add. I think that battle is pretty much what Armijo is most remembered for, so I think a lot of detail is actually good. My thoughts, anyway. Murcielago 02:42, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Alcalde Mayores were people whose job it was to settle disputes between the Spanish colonists. The governor usually chose them. They were more than just judges, they were respected leaders in the community. They were not mayors.

So "justice of the peace" might be closer? What was the difference between alcaldes mayores and mayors?

I know a lot people take the term mayores to mean mayors, as I read through the records uncovering my New México Ancestors, it seems that every time I read about an alcalde mayor, he is making some judgement about who owns what, who harmed who, or how to settle this dispute or that. I have always used the term in the same manner.

Recently the city of Alburquerque made a big deal about Martín Hurtado being its first Mayor. I really didn't feel that term was being used correctly there. Martín Chávez is a Mayor, Martín Hurtado was an Alcalde, a person who made made judgements or even helped work out compromises between people or peoples with disagreement.

Manuel Armijo's story has always been told by the conquerors. He wasn't the villain that the Americans always made him out to be.

Not always—Lecompte, for instance, defends him. (And Gregg's, Kendall's, Combs's, and Falconer's accounts were written before the U. S. conquered the region.) I hope you noticed that the article presents a much favorable picture of Armijo than most of the American writers, and specifically discredits Kendall's portrait.

For one thing, the troops that he had at Apache Canyon (the actual place he position himself to defend New Mexico, not Santa Fe)

Thanks, I just put that more clearly into the article.

were civilian militia who were poorly equipped and trained. The story I've always heard about him is that this army was so poorly trained Manuel felt it was better to save their lives than fight in a battle they were doomed to all die from. He simply accepted the inevitable, and disbanded the militia. According to Thomas E. Chávez in his book New Mexico, Past and Future, Manuel had asked for reinforcements be sent from Mexico, and when none arrive, he decided it was best to send the militia home.

Documentation like that is great. Are you going to put that in, or will it have to wait till I can get hold of the book?

I believe this is the seventh grade textbook I use to teach New Mexico History by Calvin A. Roberts and Susan A. Roberts simply called "A History of New Mexico." I know it is in Thomas Chávez's book, "New México, Past and Future," pages 113-114. Remember that Thomas Chávez was the state historian, the head of the Hispanic Cultural Center, and he worked at the Palace of the Governors in Santa Fé. I quote from Señor Chávez's book a passage about Armijo, page 114:

"Unfortunately, his life history has been vilified over the years, culminating in the 1960s, over a century after his last official act, in an interpretation of his actions as those of a dishonest coward who betrayed his people. This apocryphal history portrayed him as a man who abandoned the defense of New Mexico against the Americans because he accepted $60,000 bribe from Magoffin. No evidence has ever surfaced to remotely verify such a conclusion. None of the people involved with trying to convince Armijo to surrender mentioned a bribe at all. Quite the opposite, they concluded that Armijo was the only official who would not be convinced."

You are much younger than I am, so you may not have heard about Armijo taking a bribe in your New Mexico History classes, but I did. In college at UNM in the 70s, Professors told great stories about Armijo hightailing it out of New Mexico with his wagon loaded to the brim with valuables. I passed this story on for years. I should have known better, my father always told me it was a lie, and Thomas Chávez is saying it was as well.

My father told me Manuel was the son of the brother of one of our ancestors. I haven't been able to prove it with the documents I have been pouring through, but all the other oral history he passed my way have been proven to be true as well. My father wasn't just some crazy old guy, he had two masters degrees, one in Spanish and the other in Public School administration. He read all the time.

Recently I've been exchanging email with a Armijo 5th cousin, and his family stories about Manuel are pretty much the same. He said exactly what my father always said, that Manuel had been vilified over the years, and much of what is said about him is told by the people who took over New México, not the New Méxicans themselves. He heard a similar story, but our two families haven't been connected for generations.

There are many stories about Manuel Armijo. He was indeed a colorful character, but many of these stories are made up. Most are unflattering.

How do you like the one, told not by one of the conquerors but by Manuel Chaves of one of his sons, that Armijo had Chaves's horse poisoned so Armijo's horse could win a race?

This is a good story, but it is also a very typical situation for New México at that time. I know that you can find this story in one of Marc Simmon's books. I trust Marc's research more than most people. He has proven that he loves New México's Hispanic culture. I fear that other "Anglo" historians were somehow trying to deflect attention from the fact that the United State moved in and took NM from México by force. It is easy to point at that "terrible, horrible, silly even, governor" New México had, rather than the fact that the actions of the U.S. were imperialistic. I'm not saying that Manuel was a great guy. He was a man who knew how to get and use power. I'm saying that I'm sick of him always viewed in a totally negative view point which became the custom since the U.S. took over New México. I'm saying "read between the lines" of the history that is always written by the winners, and not often by the losers.

Most of us who have ancestry in among Manuel's brothers, uncles, etc. have heard the stories our ancestors passed down, and that was that Manuel was a scapegoat for the newcomers who invaded New Mexico. Another thing is that he stood up for the Hispanic land grants that were quickly being snatched up by the Americans.

There's no doubt that he granted considerable land to Americans. Is there any documentation of his standing up for Hispanic land grants? Would that have been after the Mexican-American War?

It was mostly after the war, but again, this is from the oral history both my 5th cousin as well as myself had heard from our parents and grandparents. I'm 54 and my email cousin is in his seventies. My father would be 94 if he were alive. The people who told our parents these stories weren't to far away from the time they actually happened.

Before 1850, Armijo was living at his residence in Lemitar New Mexico, which lies, between Belén and Socorro. He is even is listed in the 1850 census (Census Place: Limitar, Valencia, New Mexico Territory; Roll: M432_470; Page: 331; Image: 252.) of Lemitar misspelled Limitar. My great grandfather was also living in Lemitar at the time. Manuel died on the 23rd of January in 1954, not in Mexico, but in Lemitar, Valencia County, New Mexico Territory. Cybergata 22:41, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

The article says he died in New Mexico. I'll add that it was Lemitar, though. What's your source for the date of his death? It would be good to get that right.

I had to go back and search for where I found that information. I am surrounded by history and genealogy books dealing with New México, New England, Indiana and Virginia. I found the date in "The Origins of New México's Families," by Fray Angelico Chávez. Manuel may have died within a few days of the date I gave you since Fray Angelico says that "he died in his estate in Lemitar, after receiving all the last Sacraments, and was buried in the church of Socorro on January 20, 1854." Another quote from the "godfather of New Méxican genealogy," Fray Angelico also says, "Manuel Armijo's character as Governor and as a man has been unjustly painted in sources too numerous to mention here." My quotes are taken from pages 318 & 319 of Fray Angelico's "Origins" book.

I just noticed I gave you two different dates, and it leaves the impression that Manny was buried alive. ;-) I even have the wrong decade. I double checked and the date from "Origins of New México Families," is the same date the Hispanic Genealogical Research Society gives.

I've been thinking about adding a section on Armijo's character with all the contradictory stories, starting with his appearance—one American who met him in Santa Fe described him as "a big, fine-looking man", while one who met him while he was fleeing to Chihuahua (sorry, but it's documented, and maybe we can even dig up a record of his trial in Mexico City) called him "a mountain of fat". Those are probably in Keleher. There are lots of other colorful stories, as you say, and we can add the most accurate ones and document the contradictions. We can certainly get Doña Tules in there. I think it would be entertaining reading. However, I'm not going to be able to do much on this for a while.

I think showing that the many contradictions would be a great idea. As far as how Manuel looked, he was a fine looking man. All you need to know this is to look at any seventh grade New México History Textbook to know that. The Roberts and Roberts book, through its various revisions has always had a picture of a painting of Armijo that I believe is also in the Palace of the Governors. He was good looking guy. Cybergata 03:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

—JerryFriedman 23:40, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

User: Wikiphan I'm a bit surprised that a famous expression that has been attributed to Governor Armijo is not mentioned in this article. ("Poor New Mexico! So far from heaven and so close to Texas!") I understand there is little support for the attribution, but even that fact should be incorporated since the expression is oft-quoted. The expression is referred to in the Richard Bradford best seller "So Far From Heaven." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.195.154.9 (talk) 21:14, 18 October 2012 (UTC) 192.195.154.9 (talk) 21:19, 18 October 2012 (UTC) I made the comment immediately above. Alfred Chavez 18 October 2012192.195.154.9 (talk) 21:21, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for signing it. The quotation is usually attributed to Porfirio Díaz—"Poor Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States." See the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations, for example. If it's actually in a book, we should probably have it. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 22:29, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

Citizenship and Reasoning

Was Armijo an American citizen in later life? Does anyone know what he claimed to be his actual motivation in not fighting the Americans?71.28.111.57 11:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

By the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo, the Mexicans who stayed in the annexed territories became American citizens. I don't know the answer to the other question, but it would be good to find out. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 16:44, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Manuel Armijo/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Glad to see inline citations. Consider crafting a lead according to WP:LEAD and breaking it up into sections.plange 06:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 06:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 23:01, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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